Magepunk and WTF is it?

Liosse de Velishaf · Dec 9, 2009

I ran into a few threads over on NaNo dealing with the sub-genre of fantasy known as mage-punk. And I use "known" only in the widest of sense. I certainly never knew about it. From what I can gather, it's cyberpunk with mages, or maybe a cross between cyberpunk and urban fantasy. I can't think of a single book that really falls into this category, although someone on NaNo claimed Simon R. Green's "Nightside" series as a citation.

So, I was wondering, has anyone around here heard of this "sub-genre", and maybe they could explain what the hell it is to me? Something in the minds of internet linked fandumb, maybe?

thothguard51 · Dec 9, 2009

Never heard of it.

But then I just found out about steampunk last week...

What is with adding punk after everything?

jennontheisland · Dec 9, 2009

thothguard51 said:
What is with adding punk after everything?

Good fucking question.

I think my next story will be a rom-punk. Or maybe I'll lean back to historicals and write a histo-punk. But it'll probably be medieval so I should really call it knight-punk.

Liosse de Velishaf · Dec 9, 2009

Well, "cyberpunk" made sense, and "steampunk" was a joke, and I have a few story ideas that refer (tongue in cheek to) as "chimney-punk", but after that, you do start to lose me. One thing is probably that the fandom coins these names and often these genres, and they aren't exactly known for their originality. I mean, before we had "punk" as a suffix, we just tacked on some loose descriptor to the main genre of "fantasy".

I think we might almost classify this group of "punk" sub-genres as their own genre distinct from fantasy, sci-fi, and horror. They seem to focus more on tech-level than other tropes and conventions. I'd say they are still spec fic though, and the punk genre often crosses over into other spec fic genres, which is where we get these "(insertword)-punk" sub-genres.

jennontheisland · Dec 9, 2009

Liosse de Velishaf said:
I mean, before we had "punk" as a suffix, we just tacked on some loose descriptor to the main genre of "fantasy".

You mean like choo-chootasy?

Really, I think all this sub-sub-sub genre classification is getting out of hand.

thothguard51 · Dec 9, 2009

I blame Romance because they really started the sub classifications... Yal, rom-punk it to them...

Liosse de Velishaf · Dec 9, 2009

jennontheisland said:
You mean like choo-chootasy?

Really, I think all this sub-sub-sub genre classification is getting out of hand.

No. I didn't mean choo-chootasy. I meant terms far more widespread and generic.

Which reminds me...

Before people bash the "punks", remember that the "fantasies" were there first:

Dark fantasy
High fantasy
Epic fantasy
Urban fantasy
Heroic fantasy
Low fantasy
Sci-fantasy
Mythic fantasy
Celtic fantasy
Comic fantasy
Quest fantasy
Contemporary fantasy
Medieval fantasy
Bangsian fantasy
Modern fantasy

That's fifteen sub-genres of fantasy.

Punk has:

Postcyberpunk
Cyberpunk
Steampunk
Clockpunk
Dieselpunk
Splatterpunk
Biopunk
Elfpunk (the hell is that?)
Mage-punk (apparently...)
Sandalpunk (lol, just lol)
And possibly "nanopunk"

That's only 11.

So don't make so much fun of others for things you've done first.

As for Harlequin's--or should I say Vanlequin's--"category romances", well, let's not even go there.

jennontheisland · Dec 9, 2009

Liosse de Velishaf said:
No. Before people bash the "punks", remember that the "fantasies" were there first:

...

As for Harlequin's--or should I say Vanlequin's--"category romances", well, let's not even go there.

I'm not sure why you're saying no since my point was that the number of classifications (fantasy and punk) is getting out of hand.

As for the categories... my opinion on those is staying in reps.

defcon6000 · Dec 9, 2009

From what I can gather, it's cyberpunk with mages

Never heard of it, but that sounds effing awesome. Robot mages ftw! *fist pump*

Liosse de Velishaf · Dec 9, 2009

jennontheisland said:
I'm not sure why you're saying no since my point was that the number of classifications (fantasy and punk) is getting out of hand.

As for the categories... my opinion on those is staying in reps.

I'm sorry.

I have edited my post to be more clear. I wasn't disagreeing with you or anything. That second part was aimed more generally.

Liosse de Velishaf · Dec 9, 2009

defcon6000 said:
Never heard of it, but that sounds effing awesome. Robot mages ftw! *fist pump*

Say "magic robots" and I think you'll be much closer to the truth, honestly.

I don't know if this imaginary genre will end up good, bad, or non-existant, but it will be interesting finding out.

Kitty Pryde · Dec 9, 2009

Never heard of it. I'm more than slightly annoyed with using the word "X-punk" to mean "a story about X". Cyberpunk and steampunk are about cyberwhatever and steamwhatever, respectively, but more importantly are about PUNKS. Disenfranchised unempowered underclass using the technology of the economic and political leadership to bring down corrupt institutions. Dang it. A book about people wearing sandals isn't sandalpunk! A book about unempowered underclass using sandals to bring down the institutions that oppress them (however that's sposta work) would be sandalpunk. I guess.

I heard about a recent series about computer-themed wizards (not the one you mentioned...some newish author with only 2 books out I believe). And Vernor Vinge has that short story about wizard-themed computer hackers, although that's sort of the inverse (or is it converse?) of what you're talking about. But I don't think 2 or 3 authors makes a full sub-genre.

Maybe it's a made-up genre, like squidpunk? http://www.squidpunk.com/ (don't fret, people, it's a joke)

Kitty Pryde · Dec 9, 2009

Apparently Barbara Hambly beat everyone to it and did magepunk in the 80s... http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345337638/?tag=absolutewritedm-20

ETA: And also Rick Cook. http://www.amazon.com/dp/0671698036/?tag=absolutewritedm-20

And dang it, I can't find the more recent series I'm looking for. I think the author is maybe from the SF bay area?

defcon6000 · Dec 9, 2009

Liosse de Velishaf said:
Say "magic robots" and I think you'll be much closer to the truth, honestly.

I don't know if this imaginary genre will end up good, bad, or non-existant, but it will be interesting finding out.

It'll happen...because I'll make it happen. :evil

Meh, I'm making my robot mages, who will have magical properties like any other wizard, except it's all in binary and will require an Nvidia graphics card with shaders to run.

Liosse de Velishaf · Dec 9, 2009

As far as I am concerned, it is a made-up genre, although it apparently conforms to your desired punk standards in most cases. I think the idea sprang from the gaming world; for example, Shadowrun seems to be commonly cited as an example.

defcon6000 · Dec 9, 2009

Kitty Pryde said:
Apparently Barbara Hambly beat everyone to it and did magepunk in the 80s... http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345337638/?tag=absolutewritedm-20

Holy crap! The used book only costs one cent! *gets a copy*

K. Q. Watson · Dec 9, 2009

I'm totally punk-punk!
Amish Punk.
PUNK!

SPMiller · Dec 9, 2009

"Punk" doesn't mean much anymore, at least not in the sense of punk rock. Damn kids

JimmyB27 · Dec 10, 2009

Liosse de Velishaf said:
As far as I am concerned, it is a made-up genre, although it apparently conforms to your desired punk standards in most cases. I think the idea sprang from the gaming world; for example, Shadowrun seems to be commonly cited as an example.

Um...aren't *all* genres made up?

K_Woods · Dec 10, 2009

I really don't know where 'mage-punk' came from all of the sudden. I do know less than a year ago I Googled the term, wondering if it was an apt description for a project I had just started. I got...maybe three results that even had anything to do with '-punk' as used in reference to media. Out of maybe ten or twelve total. So the emergence of the term is baffling to me, too.

I thought it was a subset of magitech, but with more emphasis on the things that make -punk 'punk,' class struggle and oppression and such. Guess not.

Liosse de Velishaf · Dec 10, 2009

K_Woods said:
I really don't know where 'mage-punk' came from all of the sudden. I do know less than a year ago I Googled the term, wondering if it was an apt description for a project I had just started. I got...maybe three results that even had anything to do with '-punk' as used in reference to media. Out of maybe ten or twelve total. So the emergence of the term is baffling to me, too.

I thought it was a subset of magitech, but with more emphasis on the things that make -punk 'punk,' class struggle and oppression and such. Guess not.

Well, it does have some of that. A major theme is apparently overpopulation, for instance.

Liosse de Velishaf · Dec 10, 2009

JimmyB27 said:
Um...aren't *all* genres made up?

Yes, but this is an imaginary genre created by readers and/or gamers as far as I can tell. There's no publishing history, and outside of the fan community, I have not seen the term used. When I find a reputable agent or publisher list something as desired, that's when it's a "real" genre as far as I am concernced.

How many published authors have I seen identify their work as "mage-punk"? Zero. How many agents or publishers have I seen ask for such material? Zero. How many writing sites not including NaNo have I seen the term on? Zero.

I identify a large subset of my own work as "chimney-punk". How many others than me use the term? Zero. I made up the genre, and I did so mostly tongue in cheek. No one else uses the term, and no one else has written in the genre. Mage-punk seems to have a rather larger following.

But it is no less imaginary.

That's what I meant.

JimmyB27 · Dec 10, 2009

Liosse de Velishaf said:
Yes, but this is an imaginary genre created by readers and/or gamers as far as I can tell.

Surely the readers are the important ones? If they say it's magepunk, then by golly it is.

SPMiller · Dec 10, 2009

I can't find any mention of it on Wikipedia, not even under the revision history of, for example, cyberpunk derivatives. In fact, its only mention on the entire site is as a requested article. Magepunk doesn't seem to exist by any reasonable measure. Readers can't just will a genre into existence; this isn't Planescape, you know?

defcon6000 · Dec 10, 2009

SPMiller said:
Readers can't just will a genre into existence; this isn't Planescape, you know?

But isn't this how genres start? Readers say they want to read about robots or cool steam gadgets, writers respond and write what the reader (and perhaps themselves) want. If it catches on, it gets sub-categorized.

So if there's a demand now for magical robots/computers then they'll surely be novels to feed that demand. And voila! You've got magepunk!

Magepunk and WTF is it?

Liosse de Velishaf

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...

jennontheisland

the world is at my command

Liosse de Velishaf

jennontheisland

the world is at my command

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...

Liosse de Velishaf

jennontheisland

the world is at my command

defcon6000

Liosse de Velishaf

Liosse de Velishaf

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue

defcon6000

Liosse de Velishaf

defcon6000

K. Q. Watson

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged

JimmyB27

Hoopy frood

K_Woods

9 of 10 Overlords prefer Evil Pie!

Liosse de Velishaf

Liosse de Velishaf

JimmyB27

Hoopy frood

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged

defcon6000