Biblical Polytheism

Bartholomew said:

Many other systems of gods had a specific figure assigned to this role, (Osiris and Morrigan)

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Dear me no, the Morrígan does not judge or otherwise rule over the dead.

Be careful of the fallacy of the interpretatio romani

Someone is grossly mislead.

I'm also not at all clear how the dead fit in the context of the psalm.

Bartholomew said:

While today we often take Hades to be interchangeable with Hell, to ancient Greeks Hades was the god of the underworld.

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In Greek, though, the king is associated with the place; there are instances in Homer in particular where Hades means both the Titan/God and his realm.

When we say in English, "go to Hades," we're doing much the same thing;we too are indulging in metonymy.

In public and everything!

Bartholomew said:

I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that judgment of humanity occurs at death.

Am I not thinking of Morrígan? She would come to a battlefield before the start of a fight and choose who would live and who would die, yes? To me, this is judgment.

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No, that's Neo Pagan.

The Morrígan incites battle, and frenzy, and feeds on the slain. She mostly just wants to feed on terror, and frenzy. She doesn't choose; she knows in advance.

Bartholomew said:

True, but Hell is a significantly different place from Hades' underworld. Whether referring to the place (Hades' underworld) or to the god, it strikes me as an acknowledgment of Hades' existence in simultaneity with the Christian God.

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Technically, Hel is a Norse chick, who is half-divine, and wholly blue.

Where English translations choose Hel (it's one abode of the dead in Germanic myth) the original text uses a number of names--some of which are real places that we're excavating.

There are several strings conventionally translated as "Hell"--Sheol and Genhenna are two of the most common, but they are not exclusive. There's also a collocation that's something like "the realm of the dead." That's not used much--I honestly don't remember how often, but not much.

Well, I won't try to compete on a scholarly level. I'll leave that to semilargeintestine and Medi. However, I'll give my take on some of this:

Bartholomew said:

Gods in a non-negative context

Psalms 82:1

"God has taken His place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods, He holds judgment."

This seems fairly obvious; the implication is that the Christian God is not completely in charge of everything, but that he decides the fate of the dead. Many other systems of gods had a specific figure assigned to this role, (Osiris and Morrigan) so it seems natural that a polytheistic Christian would have a god filling the same role.

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You have to be careful about interpreting the Psalms literally. Psalms are poems or songs. The language is often metaphorical. In this case, it means that of all the belief systems in the world, only the worship of the God of Abraham is true.

God is completely in charge of everything, not just the fate of the dead. The first verse of the bible says that God created the heavens and the earth.

The Hebrew word for God here is 'el. The hebrew word for Gods here is elohim.

Genesis 3:22

"The gods said, 'Behold, the human has become like one of us, knowing good and evil...'"

Genesis 35:7

"Jacob built an altar there ... because there the gods were revealed to him."

Genesis 20:13

"Abraham said 'The gods caused me to wander from my house.'"

Here's an issue of translation. Every English Bible I've looked at actually says God here, not Gods. But in Hebrew, the text does not say 'el. It says elohim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim

I'm inclined to the trust the Hebrew over the English.

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I'm not really inclined to distrust English translations. I know it popular to dismiss them as if they were translated by country bumpkins, but the truth is the bible has been studied for hundreds of years by scholars of all stripes and most of the translations are fairly consistent. The current trend is to think that modern scholars have it all right and those old guys had it wrong, but I think that's a conceit of youth.

In Genesis, the writer appears to be consistently, intentionally using the plural on purpose.

Genesis 1:26

"Then God [plural elohim] said, "Let Us [plural pronoun] make man in Our [plural pronoun] image, according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness"

Would it then be more accurate to say "Then the gods said..."?

Proverbs 9:1-5

"Wisdom has built her house;
she has hewn out its seven pillars. She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine;
she has also set her table.
She has sent out her maids, and she calls
from the highest point of the city.
"Let all who are simple come in here!"
she says to those who lack judgment.
"Come, eat my food
and drink the wine I have mixed"

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So why have generations of scholars misinterpreted a simple case of singular versus plural in connection to the name of God? Surely you've asked yourself that.

There's plenty of evidence that there is only one God. In 1 Kings 18, Elijah defeats the prophets of Baal, proving that Baal doesn't even exist. The people say: "The Lord, He is God". The word Lord here means (from one source I found) "the God who exists", meaning, of course that the others don't.

So again, why the mix up of singular and plural. Semi would probably disagree, but from the Christian perspective, God is a triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There are not three gods, but one God who is three. So when God says "We will make man in Our image", He's talking to himself. Think of it as using the "royal We".

I should say here, however, that I don't know if this is the reason it was translated to the singular "God". I'm not a scholar. That is, however, how I justify it to myself.

This one isn't obvious. Wisdom is being referred to here as an entity, and the Greek word for wisdom is "Sophia." In Gnostic tradition of Christianity, Sophia was considered to be the wife of God -- a Goddess.

In fact, if one does not immediately discard the Gnostic tradition as heretical, there are a number of stories involving Sophia and Jesus in their religious texts, though these were never included in the Bible.

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As Gnosticism is generally considered a heresy in Christianity, I don't see how this applies. It has as little to do with Christianity as what Norse myths say about Odin.

Commandments not to Worship

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Exodus 20:3

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Deuteronomy 6:14

"You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you"

2 Kings 17:35
"...with whom the LORD made a covenant and commanded them, saying, "You shall not fear other gods, nor bow down yourselves to them nor serve them nor sacrifice to them."

Jeremiah 25:6

"and do not go after other gods to serve them and to worship them, and do not provoke Me to anger with the work of your hands, and I will do you no harm.'"

Jeremiah 35:15

"Also I have sent to you all My servants the prophets, sending them again and again, saying: 'Turn now every man from his evil way and amend your deeds, and do not go after other gods to worship them. Then you will dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your forefathers; but you have not inclined your ear or listened to Me."

Exodus 34:14

"For the Lord, whose name is jealous, is a jealous God."

Psalm 97:7

"All who worship images are put to shame. Those who boast in idols -- worship him, all you Gods."

Psalms 97:9

"For you O Lord are the most high over all the Earth. You are exalted far above all gods."

Exodus 18:20

"Now I know that the Lord is greater than all other gods, for he did this to those who treated Israel arrogantly."

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Again, these are talking about belief systems and how the worship of the Lord (that is Jehovah) is superior to all of them. It does not mean other gods exist. It's the one true God saying, "Hey, I'm the only God. Why are you worshiping them? They can't do anything for you. They're only wood and stone. I'm real."

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There appears to have been a schism in heaven. In Genesis, God seems to be getting along with the other deities. By Exodus, God is a distinct entity apart from the other gods, and is jealous of them. What happened?

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My Hebrew is awful. My crutch for discussing it may be found here:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htmhttp://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

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There never were any other gods for God to be jealous of. However, God doesn't want His people (meaning all of us) to worship made up gods. So why would God be jealous of non-existing gods?

Here's a true story. When I was 3 years old, my parents took a trip to New York. They left me for two weeks with my aunt (dad's sister). When they got back, I hid behind my aunt, apparently afraid of this stranger who was my real mother -- after only two weeks. I even called my aunt Mommy.

My mother was crushed, at least enough that she has told tell me about it ever since. I see God's "jealousy" as the same thing. He created us and gave us life and every good thing, and then we ignore Him, or worse, give credit to some other god whom we've made up.

Bartholomew said:

Greek Gods
Just for fun.

Luke, 10:15

"And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? No, you will be thrown down to Hades!"

While today we often take Hades to be interchangeable with Hell, to ancient Greeks Hades was the god of the underworld. One could argue that this figure is analogous to Satan, but this would ignore the centuries of mythology surrounding the figure, including is benevolent wife.

Psalms, 97:2

Clouds and thick darkness surround him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne.

Psalms, 97:4

His lightning lights up the world; the earth sees and trembles.

While there is no specific reference to Zeus here, I find it interesting that these descriptions of the Christian god are so close to how the ancient Greeks saw their favorite sky god.

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actually, when I read the passages, it reminds me of Yldabaoth/Demiurge instead of Zeus.

There's plenty of oblique Gnosticism in the New Testament, but Sophia was never God's wife, so far as I can tell. She was apparently an aeon and Jesus' syzygy, but good luck figuring out exactly what that means. Aeon's are probably closer to angels than any other modern concept, and since the whole idea of aeons is that they are emmanations of God, you're still more or less monotheistic. (If you're lost by all this, the basic idea is that God is everything, and that the universe spreads out from God in layers. Sophia is in the last layer before the material universe, which is flawed, often because Sophia goofed up somehow.)

I think that the general idea of aeon's having wives and sex would be pretty unlikely, as the whole point is that they are "energy beings" (to put a modern spin on it). Anyhow, Wisdom personified is quite a bit different from wisdom deified, and I'm not aware of any good evidence tying some sort of Hebrew goddess of wisdom to Sophia.

The whole theogony of gnosticism itself is pretty confusing. Sophia is often described as aeon or as the original "triad" (Ein Sof Aur-Barbello-Kristos).

to be honest, when I read the story about Sophia/Chokmach/Hikmah tried to emulate Ein Sof Aur method of self-creation, I really couldn't help but to interpret this as self-masterbation. perhaps the hidden message is that man and woman are made so they could reproduce, have sex, and give birth to child, while in sophia's case, because she wasn't with her consort, the defective false god born instead.

it's also interesting to note Yldabaoth is called Nebruel in Judas Gospel, which perhaps have root in "Nibiru", the babylonian god.

There never were any other gods for God to be jealous of.

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The bible disagrees with you.

There's a bit of evidence kicking around that the G-d of Judaism is actually one of a pantheon of Canaanite deities, whose worship was influenced by the monotheistic religion of Zoroaster.

El for instance, is a Canaanite deity, as is Baal.

Rhys Cordelle said:

The bible disagrees with you.

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Really?

Deuteronomy 4:28
There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell.

Deuteronomy 28:36
The LORD will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your fathers. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone.

Deuteronomy 28:64
Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known.

2 Kings 19:18
They have thrown their gods into the fire and destroyed them, for they were not gods but only wood and stone, fashioned by men's hands.

Isaiah 37:19
They have thrown their gods into the fire and destroyed them, for they were not gods but only wood and stone, fashioned by human hands.

Daniel 5:4
As they drank the wine, they praised the gods of gold and silver, of bronze, iron, wood and stone.

Daniel 5:23
Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.

Psalm 4:2
How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame ? How long will you love delusions and seek false gods ? Selah

Jeremiah 16:19
O LORD, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in time of distress, to you the nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Our fathers possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good.

There is no indication, except by stretching the imagination and ignoring the above explicit verses denying the very existence of other gods, that other gods are anything but delusions in men's minds.

Ruv Draba said:

There's a bit of evidence kicking around that the G-d of Judaism is actually one of a pantheon of Canaanite deities, whose worship was influenced by the monotheistic religion of Zoroaster.

El for instance, is a Canaanite deity, as is Baal.

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Or perhaps the Canaanite deities were perversions of the God of Judaism.

Shilma said:

The whole theogony of gnosticism itself is pretty confusing. Sophia is often described as aeon or as the original "triad" (Ein Sof Aur-Barbello-Kristos).

to be honest, when I read the story about Sophia/Chokmach/Hikmah tried to emulate Ein Sof Aur method of self-creation, I really couldn't help but to interpret this as self-masterbation. perhaps the hidden message is that man and woman are made so they could reproduce, have sex, and give birth to child, while in sophia's case, because she wasn't with her consort, the defective false god born instead.

it's also interesting to note Yldabaoth is called Nebruel in Judas Gospel, which perhaps have root in "Nibiru", the babylonian god.

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After I read this I looked at the stories again, and you're right, there is a strong sexual component to it. You could also argue its sexist--Sophia tries to give birth without a man and she fails. But then you have the whole virgin Mary component.

But then I thought about it some more, and remembered that there's already a Father/Son/Holy Spirit trinity, which could be interpreted as polytheism, unless you accept the trinity theory, in which case you might as well have Sophia in the mix. And Sophia is sometimes identified as the Holy Spirit anyhow. So even if you interpret Sophia as a goddess, the whole thing is no more polytheistic than it was if you leave Sophia out.

Baal, by the way,. is not a god--it's a title, roughly translated as Lord. It's debatable which deities were Baal when they're mentioned in the Bible. But there's evidence that Y--H was part of a pantheon of Babylonian deities, and there's even a reference to Baal Y--H. The problem of course is that every time someone digs out a new temple inscription, it's a different pantheon. It was a dynamic, changing process, and the Israelites may have adapted a Babylonian deity, or the Babylonians may have made an existing deity part of their pantheons.

Adrammelech II Kings 17:31 Sepharvite God.
Anammelech II Kings 17:31 Sepharvite God.
Ashima II Kings 17:30 Samaritan Moon Goddess.
Ashtoreth I Kings 11:05 Canaanite Goddess.
Baal I Kings 18:19 Canaanite God ("Lord") of fertility, vegitation, and storms.
Baal-berith Judges 8:33 A regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baal-peor Numbers 25:03 Moabite regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baal-zebub Luke 11:19 Philistine/Ekronian regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baalim I Kings 18:18 Canaanite Gods ("Lords"), a collective of the different aspects of Baa.
Bel Isiah 46:01 Assyrian/Babylonian/Sumerian God
Chemosh I Kings 11:07 Moabite war God.
Dagon I Samuel 05:02 Philistine/Ekronian/Babylonian God of agriculture.
Diana of the Ephesians Acts 19:35 Ephesian moon and nature Goddess, ("Divine/Brilliant").
Jehovah Exodus 6:03 Hebrew God
Jupiter Acts 14:12 Roman God (possibly derived from 'Zeus-pater', Father Zeus).
Lucifer Isiah 14:12 ("Light-Bearer")
Mercurius Acts 14:12 Otherwise known as the Roman God Mercury, God of communication and travel, and messenger of the Gods
Milcom I Kings 11:05 Ammonite God
Molech I Kings 11:07 Ammonite God, also called Moloch, most probably Baal-Hammon of Carthage.
Nebo Isiah 46:01 Assyrian/Babylonian/Chaldean God of wisdom and writing, also called Nabu.
Nergal II Kings 17:30 Cuth/Assyrian/Babylonian war and underworld God, also called Meshlamthea.
Nibhaz II Kings 17:31 Avites God
Nisroch II Kings 19:37 Assyrian God
Rimmon II Kings 05:18 Babylonian/Syrian storm God involved (as Ramman) with the Deluge, according to Hebrew texts; also known as Ramman/Rammon
Succoth-benoth II Kings 17:30 Babylonian fertility Goddess ("She Who Produces Seed"), also known as Zarpanitu/Zerpanitum.
Tammuz Ezekial 8:14 Assyrian/Babylonian God
Tartak II Kings 17:31 Avites God

Roger J Carlson said:

Or perhaps the Canaanite deities were perversions of the God of Judaism.

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Abraham spent time in Canaan I think, but Canaanite religion looks old. I get the impression they were worshipping their pantheon when he arrived. The Israelite YHWH was seen as a competitor to Baal and possibly identical to El (hence perhaps so many -El names in Judaism).

I believe the theory is that El (the Great God, father God, creator of all) was the leader of some sort of pantheon, and that YHWH was considered one of the members and children of El, specifically the one that had dominion over the Israelites. The original name of El varies, but I've heard Marduk. Somewhere along the line the transcendent properties of El get transferred to YHWH.

There are two problems I see with this theory. One is that I haven't seen what I would consider to be the actual evidence laid out objectively. Any information out there is fragmentary, and there may be other ways to connect the dots.

The other problem is chicken-egg. If the Israelites were worshiping YHWH as a transcendent deity, it wouldn't be surprising if their neighbors would stick him into their pantheon as one of the children of El the father, and it wouldn't be surprising that the Israelites would use the same word for their own father-deity. From what little I've been able to find out about the subject, it appears that both scenarios could fit.

Ruv Draba said:

Abraham spent time in Canaan I think, but Canaanite religion looks old. I get the impression they were worshipping their pantheon when he arrived. The Israelite YHWH was seen as a competitor to Baal and possibly identical to El (hence perhaps so many -El names in Judaism).

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Again, it depends on your perspective. If you start with the belief that all the gods (including Jehovah) are just myths, then sure. If, on the other hand, you believe (as I do) that Jehovah created the universe, then there are no gods "older" than Jehovah.

Rhys Cordelle said:

Adrammelech II Kings 17:31 Sepharvite God.
Anammelech II Kings 17:31 Sepharvite God.
Ashima II Kings 17:30 Samaritan Moon Goddess.
Ashtoreth I Kings 11:05 Canaanite Goddess.
Baal I Kings 18:19 Canaanite God ("Lord") of fertility, vegitation, and storms.
Baal-berith Judges 8:33 A regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baal-peor Numbers 25:03 Moabite regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baal-zebub Luke 11:19 Philistine/Ekronian regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baalim I Kings 18:18 Canaanite Gods ("Lords"), a collective of the different aspects of Baa.
Bel Isiah 46:01 Assyrian/Babylonian/Sumerian God
Chemosh I Kings 11:07 Moabite war God.
Dagon I Samuel 05:02 Philistine/Ekronian/Babylonian God of agriculture.
Diana of the Ephesians Acts 19:35 Ephesian moon and nature Goddess, ("Divine/Brilliant").
Jehovah Exodus 6:03 Hebrew God
Jupiter Acts 14:12 Roman God (possibly derived from 'Zeus-pater', Father Zeus).
Lucifer Isiah 14:12 ("Light-Bearer")
Mercurius Acts 14:12 Otherwise known as the Roman God Mercury, God of communication and travel, and messenger of the Gods
Milcom I Kings 11:05 Ammonite God
Molech I Kings 11:07 Ammonite God, also called Moloch, most probably Baal-Hammon of Carthage.
Nebo Isiah 46:01 Assyrian/Babylonian/Chaldean God of wisdom and writing, also called Nabu.
Nergal II Kings 17:30 Cuth/Assyrian/Babylonian war and underworld God, also called Meshlamthea.
Nibhaz II Kings 17:31 Avites God
Nisroch II Kings 19:37 Assyrian God
Rimmon II Kings 05:18 Babylonian/Syrian storm God involved (as Ramman) with the Deluge, according to Hebrew texts; also known as Ramman/Rammon
Succoth-benoth II Kings 17:30 Babylonian fertility Goddess ("She Who Produces Seed"), also known as Zarpanitu/Zerpanitum.
Tammuz Ezekial 8:14 Assyrian/Babylonian God
Tartak II Kings 17:31 Avites God

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I'm not sure what your point is. I never said other gods weren't mentioned in the Bible. I said that there is no indication in scripture that other gods are REAL. In fact, all other gods are portrayed as man-made delusions.

Roger J Carlson said:

Again, it depends on your perspective. If you start with the belief that all the gods (including Jehovah) are just myths, then sure. If, on the other hand, you believe (as I do) that Jehovah created the universe, then there are no gods "older" than Jehovah.

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Even if that were true, it needn't mean that Israelites were always monotheistic. But it might mean that their version of events was biassed and not always true. And if that were so, it shouldn't surprise us, because that's what we see in the histories of JHWH's followers and everyone else too.

I think it makes a difference because the historical and archeological evidence suggests that there was a polytheistic society who wrote the early books of the Bible, and that gradually a priestly hierarchy eliminated all but one of the deities, often using violence as a tool. There's very little doubt, for instance, that the person who wrote the first version Adam and Eve story was a polytheist or henotheist, and that when he talks about the "gods," he means just that.

Now you can certainly say that your belief system has only one God, and that the first authors of the Bible were mistaken, but then you have to work with the fact that the Bible has context. So I certainly think it can make a difference to your approach to the text, and it can make a difference if you believe that the evidence and the text supports your particular belief.

ChristineR said:

I think it makes a difference because the historical and archeological evidence suggests that there was a polytheistic society who wrote the early books of the Bible, and that gradually a priestly hierarchy eliminated all but one of the deities, often using violence as a tool. There's very little doubt, for instance, that the person who wrote the first version Adam and Eve story was a polytheist or henotheist, and that when he talks about the "gods," he means just that.

Now you can certainly say that your belief system has only one God, and that the first authors of the Bible were mistaken, but then you have to work with the fact that the Bible has context. So I certainly think it can make a difference to your approach to the text, and it can make a difference if you believe that the evidence and the text supports your particular belief.

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QFT

If Jehovah created the universe then why isn't he the earliest god to be worshipped?