Why do you believe what you believe?

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Rhys Cordelle

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I'm interested in the core reasons why you believe a particular religion to be true, or why you don't believe any religion, if that's the case. If a personal experience of divine revelation is the reason then I'm not going to try to dispute that, but since it isn't a convincing argument to make in favor of your religion (particularly to strangers on an internet message board) please don't post such reasons here.

As this is a discussion that could easily turn nasty, I'd like to state right now that I'd prefer it if people don't debate eachothers reasons here.

In my own case, I am an atheist, and I came to that position for a lot of different reasons, but the key reason for me is that I haven't seen convincing evidence to support the existence of anything supernatural.

As a side note, if anyone DOES want to debate with me about their religious views, I'd be happy to have that debate through private messages, but please try not to do it in this thread. Too many threads get closed that way.

Thanks all.
 

semilargeintestine

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There are many reasons why I turned to Judaism. I'm not sure if I mentioned this elsewhere or not, but I am a convert to Judaism. My reasons for joining the covenant are a mix of personal revelations and just logical analysis. The personal revelation part is what pushed me to investigate further, but it's what I found that actually kept me on track. So out of respect for your request, the things I found after analyzing Judaism are what I will focus on. It basically boils down to four things: logic, historicity, the history of the Jewish people, and prophecy. Since the logic of it all is interconnected with the others, I'll discuss it as I go along.

In a former life, I was a scientist of sorts. The things I learned in the lab about the nature of scientific theory and the study of the universe have stuck with me, and I naturally apply them to everything I investigate. Judaism was--and still is--no different. Being this way, I thought it important to determine the historical accuracy of as much of the Tanakh as possible if it claimed to be a literal account of the history of the Jewish people.

The first thing I did was determine which parts of the Tanakh are claimed to be literal historical accounts, and which parts--if any--are entirely or partially metaphorical. One of the first things I found was that much of the Tanakh is either metaphorical or intentionally non-chronological, particularly the Torah--it simply is not meant to be a history book.

However, despite this, it is taken as--for the most part--a history of the Jewish people. While there is debate as to whether or not the story of Creation and the Garden is supposed to be taken literally (many opinions even back into Second Temple times say that it is a metaphor), it is not debated that Noach onward happened (important to note is that the ages are NOT necessarily literal, as well as other aspects of those stories--what is true is that they actually happened). And so, finding some corroboration of this was important to me.

What I found is that while there is not direct evidence of much of the Torah, there have been some interesting things found. For instance, they have statues of a ram caught in a thicket from about the time the Torah says Abraham lived--from the area he lived. For those unfamiliar with Abraham, one of the most important things he did was show complete faith in G-d by agreeing to offer his only son Isaac as a burnt offering to G-d. When he was about to take the knife to his son's throat, an angel stopped him and revealed a ram caught in a thicket, which took the place of his son. Considering Judaism places the last words of the Torah being written in 1273 BCE, and Abraham lived nearly a thousand years before that, the statues indicate that the event may have actually occurred. In addition, they have found documents (tablets) with the names of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, and Terah (Abraham's father) written on them in those areas they were said to have lived. Again, not direct proof of their existence, but certainly suggestive.

To briefly cover the rest, since I don't want to take up more time, they have evidence of a large deluge (and while the Torah says the flood destroyed the entire world, the Midrash clarifies this by outlining exactly where the flood took place--which was not literally the entire planet), of the Tower of Babel (entries by a Greek historian who visited its location and wrote detailed descriptions), of Semitic slaves in Egypt (paintings, papyrus scrolls discussing slaves building the cities quoted and not meeting their quota of bricks--mentioned in the Torah), and evidence of an exodus by different groups of people from Egypt (and the Torah is clear that it was not only Jews who left Egypt in the Exodus).

As far as the Tanakh goes, one needs only to go to Israel to see the history of the Jewish people matches that of the Tanakh. The Temples, the Kings, the cities, etc. There is much archeological evidence to prove what is written is accurate. It's easy to find, so I won't bother mentioning it all here. However, what I will mention is the historical consistency of the Torah. Every time they find a Torah scroll, it is exactly the same as the Torah scrolls we have today--word for word, down to the script used to write each letter. From the copies of the Torah and Isaiah from over 2,000 years ago to Torah scrolls from the 7th century BCE, the consistency is perfect (in fact, you can read the Isaiah scroll from 2,000 years ago online and compare it to the scrolls/books from today--they match perfectly).

In fact, of all the Torah scrolls around the world for the last 3,000 years, there are only 9 letter differences. These 9 are all in Yemenite Torah scrolls because they were not part of the world checking system for hundreds of years. There are 304,805 letters in the Torah, and only 9 letter differences in one small community; and more importantly, the differences are spelling differences, such as the difference between color and colour--they are not word or meaning changes. Compare this with the Xtian bible, which is 1,700 years younger than the Torah, and the Xtians have not experienced anything remotely close to the 2,000 years of exile and persecution that the Jewish people have faced: in the New Testament, there are some 200,000 variants in the existing manuscripts, representing 400 variants that cause doubt about textual meaning, 50 of which are of great significance.

The fact that the same text existed not only 2,700 years ago, but more importantly, a mere 500 years after the last words of the original Torah written by Moses indicates that it is entirely plausible--completely ignoring the religious aspect--that the original Torah was written at that time--1313-1273 BCE. That leads to the next part. If the Torah was written at the time the Jewish people were in the desert, it is completely illogical to assume that someone could write a book describing events that never happened, and that everyone would somehow accept it as true. It simply makes no sense.

I've touched on the history of the Jewish people and its matching up with the Tanakh; however, I want to discuss it more in relation to prophecy. There are several specific prophecies in the Torah and Tanakh regarding the Jewish people. It would be a huge blow for the Truth of the Torah if they didn't come true. There are several, and I have discussed many of them before. Without delving too deeply into it once again, there are several prophecies regarding the Jewish people that have come true, including ones that either go against common sense or are extremely detailed. These include prophecies regarding the population size of the Jewish people, world-wide anti-Semitism, the exiles, the return to Israel, and others. Two of the most telling, however, are the ones about the Land of Israel itself and the Temples.

The prophecy regarding the Land of Israel links the prosperity of the land with the Jews. It says that when the Jews are in Israel, it will flourish; but, it will be a wasteland when the Jews are not in Israel. Before the Roman exile, Israel was very agricultural. Shortly after the exile began, the land turned to a rocky, barren desert despite the Arabs' attempts to cultivate it. In fact, when Mark Twain visited in the 1800s, he expressed wonder that anyone could live there. There were small groups of Jews living in the land who were able to make do, but the majority of Jews lived elsewhere due to the exile. When the Jews finally returned in droves to Israel not too long ago, agriculture picked up, and it is now one of the biggest--if not the biggest--industries there. There is no logical reason for this, except that it is a direct prophecy that come exactly true.

The prophecy regarding the Temples says that 70 years after the destruction of the First Temple, a Persian King named Cyrus would rebuild the Temple, and 484 years after that, a foreign invader would destroy the Second Temple and kill the high priest. So, what happened? Exactly that. 70 years after the destruction of the First Temple, King Cyrus from Persia gave the Jews permission to rebuilt the Temple. 484 years later, Titus came down from Rome and destroyed the Second Temple and killed the High Priest.

And so how does this all fit together? It's simply logic. There is historical evidence of Biblical events happening. From Joshua on, the history is entirely accurate. The Torah scrolls from the 7th century BCE are exactly the same as the ones we have today. Prophecies in the Torah have come true exactly. Put that together and what you get is a large amount of evidence that there were Jews in the desert at the time the Bible purports who believed in the words of the Torah being true. That many people could simply not be convinced that a series of events based on them happened if they didn't--it's just not possible.

As far as the more spiritual stuff goes, it also boils down to logic. Judaism is the only religion whose Revelation of G-d was not given to a single person, but rather 3 million people at once. It is also the only all-inclusive religion regarding both the afterlife and the World to Come. In Jewish faith, everyone goes to Heaven regardless of religion, and non-Jews who follow the 7 Noachide Laws are guaranteed a place in the World to Come. Focusing just on Heaven, why would G-d create a world and people for millions of years only to send them to Hell because they were born before Jebus? That makes no sense. In fact, the very concept of Hell makes no sense--which is why Judaism has no concept of it. If G-d created the universe and everything in the spiritual plane out of the kindness of His "heart", why would He create a place for us to burn and suffer forever because we sinned? If He is forgiving and knows we are prone to sin, it makes no sense that He would send us to Hell.

In addition, we have miracles. While the miracles of the Bible--specifically the Exodus--can be questioned because of how long ago they occurred, modern miracles are harder to explain away. The Jewish people experienced the most open miracles in history since the Exodus during the Six Day War in 1967. There is story after story about how two Jews were spared from dozens of Egyptian soldiers because the Egyptians became paralyzed when they went to fire on the Jews, or how the IAF was able to completely destroy the Egyptian and Jordanian air fields because warning messages were messed up or never delivered, or trucks filled with missiles and explosives were hit with mortars that simply didn't go off when they should have. The covenant between G-d and the Jewish people is that even in exile, He will ensure that we are never destroyed. Our enemies have been trying to destroy us for 2,000 years now, and have been trying to destroy the State of Israel for over 60 years now without success. As many a non-Jew (and Jew) has said, the fact that we're still around is proof that G-d exists.
 

Rhys Cordelle

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Thanks for that. In all honesty I've been fairly ignorant of Jewish beliefs as I live in New Zealand and it's not a religion I ever hear much about.

Could you tell me what the 7 laws you mention are? And what is the World to Come?
 

Rarri

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I'm interested in the core reasons why you believe a particular religion to be true, or why you don't believe any religion, if that's the case.

For me, i don't think there is a core reason as to why i don't believe in a deity or am part of a religion. My parents are Humanists, they brought up my brother and i to question what's around us. For both of us, the end result of that was coming to the conclusion that we don't believe in a God (or Gods) or an afterlife. If i were to push myself to find a 'core' reason to that decision, i can still only see it being my upbringing; that after umpteen years of (and on-going) questions, discussions, debates and life experiences, i simply don't believe. That's something i'm happy with though, and i've followed my parents with Humanism. I do find religion fascinating though, as does my brother and in addition i suppose to the 'core' reason for not believing, our upbringing didn't exclude religion (IE we were encouraged to learn and discuss rather than being simply told 'there is no God').

That's quite a useles answer i guess - apologies - but there you are, there isn't always a 'core' reason, or rather, one sole reason.
 

semilargeintestine

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Thanks for that. In all honesty I've been fairly ignorant of Jewish beliefs as I live in New Zealand and it's not a religion I ever hear much about.

Could you tell me what the 7 laws you mention are? And what is the World to Come?

The Seven Noachide Laws are the laws that all humans are enjoined to follow, since we all (at least metaphorically) descend from Noach, and he was given only seven commandments to follow. They are actually 7 general commandments that encompass 67 more specific ones. They are:


  1. THEFT
    1. against stealing
    2. against committing robbery
    3. against shifting a landmark
    4. against cheating
    5. against repudiating a claim of money owed
    6. against overcharging
    7. against coveting
    8. against desiring
    9. a laborer shall be allowed to eat of the fruits among which he works (under certain conditions)
    10. against a laborer eating of such fruit (when certain conditions are not met)
    11. against a laborer taking of such fruit home
    12. against kidnapping
    13. against the use of false weights and measures
    14. against the possession of false weights and measures
    15. that one shall be exact in the use of weights and measures
    16. that the robber shall return (or pay for) the stolen object
  2. JUSTICE
    1. to appoint judges and officers in each and every community
    2. to treat the litigants equally before the law
    3. to inquire diligently into the testimony of a witness
    4. against the wanton miscarriage of justice by the court
    5. against the judge accepting a bribe or gift from a litigant
    6. against the judge showing marks of honor to but one litigant
    7. against the judge acting in fear of a litigant's threats
    8. against the judge, out of compassion, favoring a poor litigant
    9. against the judge discriminating against the litigant because he is a sinner
    10. against the judge, out of softness, putting aside the penalty of a mauler or killer
    11. against the judge discriminating against a stranger or an orphan
    12. against the judge hearing one litigant in the absence of the other
    13. against appointing a judge who lacks knowledge of the Law
    14. against the court killing an innocent man
    15. against incrimination by circumstantial evidence
    16. against punishing for a crime committed under duress
    17. that the court is to administer the death penalty by the sword
    18. against anyone taking the law into his own hands to kill the perpetrator of a capital crime
    19. to testify in court
    20. against testifying falsely
  3. HOMICIDE
    1. against anyone murdering anyone
  4. ILLICIT INTERCOURSE
    1. against (a man) having union with his mother
    2. against (a man) having union with his sister
    3. against (a man) having union with the wife of his father
    4. against (a man) having union with another man's wife
    5. against (a man) copulating with a beast
    6. against a woman copulating with a beast
    7. against (a man) lying carnally with a male
    8. against (a man) lying carnally with his father
    9. against (a man) lying carnally with his father's brother
    10. against engaging in erotic conduct that may lead to a prohibited union
  5. LIMB OF A LIVING CREATURE
    1. against eating a limb severed from a living animal, beast, or fowl
    2. against eating the flesh of any animal which was torn by a wild beast ... which, in part, prohibits the eating of such flesh as was torn off an animal while it was still alive
  6. IDOLATRY
    1. against entertaining the thought that there exists a deity except the Lord
    2. against making any graven image (and against having anyone else make one for us)
    3. against making idols for use by others
    4. against making any forbidden statues (even when they are for ornamental purposes)
    5. against bowing to any idol (and not to sacrifice nor to pour libation nor to burn incense before any idol, even where it is not the customary manner of worship to the particular idol)
    6. against worshipping idols in any of their customary manners of worship
    7. against causing our children to pass (through the fire) in the worship of Molech.
    8. against practicing Ov
    9. against the practice of Yiddoni
    10. against turning to idolatry (in word, in thought, in deed, or by any observance that may draw us to its worship)
  7. BLASPHEMY
    1. to acknowledge the presence of G-d
    2. to fear G-d
    3. to pray to Him
    4. to sanctify G-d's name (in face of death, where appropriate)
    5. against desecrating G-d's name (even in face of death, when appropriate)
    6. to study the Torah
    7. to honor the scholars, and to revere one's teacher
    8. against blaspheming
So it is 7 commandments that just has more specific parts. For example, non-Jews are forbidden to commit theft, but theft is a general word that includes robbery, kidnapping, cheating someone in business, etc.

The World to Come can refer to two things: the afterlife and the messianic age. I was referring specifically to the messianic age. This is the period after the Third Temple has been built and the Moshiach has restored Torah law to Israel and become the next Jewish King. It is basically world peace. There are a few aspects to it that are miraculous, like the absence of sickness and death or hunger and war; however, life will pretty much be the same: Jews will be Jews, and the other nations of the world will be the same--there will just be peace between everyone.

But, to have a share in this, you have to follow the rules to the best of your ability. For a Jew, this means following the 613 commandments. For a non-Jew, this means following the 7 Noachide Laws. It is important to remember though that the options aren't World to Come or Eternal Damnation. Speaking in a strictly technical sense, since every soul goes to Heaven, a person who did not merit resurrection in the World to Come would simply stay dead and be in Heaven--not a bad consolation prize. However, I personally feel that part of the reason we are still waiting is G-d wants everyone to warrant a portion of the World to Come, so He is waiting until every soul does what it needs to do, regardless of how many reincarnations it takes.
 

2Wheels

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I don't hold any firm beliefs. I was raised as a Christian (in as much as I attended a non-secular school, in an enviromnent absent of information on other religions), but none of it ever stuck. I do tend to sway in favour of the "intelligent design" idea, as I find logic (and I am huge utiliser of logic) points in that direction, for me, if no-one else. I can't be atheist, as I don't believe we can definitely say that something doesn't exist simply because we do not have a means to measure/detect it etc. Did X-Rays come into existence once Roentgen and the Curie's did their experiments? No. They had always been there, having an effect on us, but it wasn't until then that we had concrete knowledge of their existence.

I think it's because although no-one has yet proven to me that a "higher power" exists, I don't believe there is enough evidence to concretely say that there isn't one. I'll remain on the fence I expect!
 

Rhys Cordelle

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I don't believe we can definitely say that something doesn't exist simply because we do not have a means to measure/detect it etc.

Most atheists, myself included, would agree with you.

Theism is about belief in a god, which is not the same as knowledge.

A-theism is simply rejecting that belief. It's not the statement "there is no god". People who make that statement are atheists because, clearly, they don't believe. But they are going beyond disbelief and making an assertion of their own.

If you're a christian and someone tries to convert you to another religion you're most likely going to tell them that you don't believe what they're telling you. The only difference between a religious person and an atheist is that atheists disbelieve all religious positions instead of all but one.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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I had no religious upbringing whatsoever. Because of that I wasn't taught to believe IN something so I don't believe in anything.

I can't be atheist, as I don't believe we can definitely say that something doesn't exist simply because we do not have a means to measure/detect it etc.

Actually, that's exactly why I'm an atheist, because you CAN'T prove God's existence, not because I can't disprove it.
 

mscelina

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After many years of self-examination and reflection, including trying not only numerous Christian denominations but religions outside of the established Judeo-Christian belief systems, I came to the conclusion that an individual's relationship with their deity is a private affair.

So let us say I believe in God, but not religions founded in His/Her name. My daughters were raised with the concept that there is no 'right' religious belief, that all are equally valid for the people who follow them, and that they should examine their own consciences as to where they were comfortable on the spiritual sphere. One is a church-attending Baptist, the other is a complete atheist and neither one ever learned to dismiss another's spirituality.

One of my rare successes as a parent. I'm very proud of both of them because they are both comfortable with the choices they made.
 

mscelina

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I had parents that tried to decide everything for me and I know what happened. I wanted my girls to learn how to think for themselves and that was a hell of a lot more important to me than the grades that were pounded into my head.

And I definitely didn't want them hurt by the charges of 'you're a sinner because you go to this church' or 'you're not saved and will go to hell if you don't do this' or, God forbid, the ideology that because they were women they were somehow less than the men around them because of something an old misogynist wrote in letters to his friends. I don't know the answers, so how could I give them to my kids?
 

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I had parents that tried to decide everything for me and I know what happened. I wanted my girls to learn how to think for themselves and that was a hell of a lot more important to me than the grades that were pounded into my head.

Strangely enough this is the sort of the same reason why I send my kids to a Lutheran School. I know what happened when my parents let me decide everything and didn't teach me to believe.
 

2Wheels

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So I should probably describe myself as a mostly-agnostic, semi-theist. Not that I use "semi" in the literal sense, as that part is really unquantifiable (varies depending on the mood I'm in ... :D )
 

semilargeintestine

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Darn. Still, I much prefer the idea of heaven as a consolation prize than hell.

Rarri, thanks for your response :)

Not everyone can follow every word of the commandments. Only four people in history have lived without sinning, yet everyone goes to Heaven. All G-d wants is a sincere effort. :)

There is a story of a rabbi who went way off the path and started sleeping with prostitutes and generally not being a nice fellow. One night, he was with a very expensive and famous prostitute who informed him that G-d would not be happy with what he's become. This rabbi was so taken about that even a prostitute knew this guy was way off the path that he up and left. He went out into a field and begged the hills, the sky, the stars, the sun to intercede on his behalf with G-d for forgiveness. They all remained silent, and he knew he had to do it himself. Tears flowing down his face, he fell to his knees and begged for forgiveness. It was such a powerful feeling that his heart couldn't take it, and he died. But right before he died, he felt at peace because he knew G-d had accepted his plea. All He wants is a moment of sincerity, even at the end of a life full of sin.

People make the mistake of thinking you have to be perfect. You don't have to be perfect, because no one is, and G-d doesn't expect you to be. If He did, the human race wouldn't have lasted very long, and there wouldn't be in place such a clear way to make up for sins.
 
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StephanieFox

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If you're a christian and someone tries to convert you to another religion you're most likely going to tell them that you don't believe what they're telling you. The only difference between a religious person and an atheist is that atheists disbelieve all religious positions instead of all but one.

Ah, so you are a poly-atheist.
 

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I'm an Atheist, may as well be upfront about it. I just figure that 1. my parents had the chance to baptize me years ago and didn't, so this is sorta their fault, and 2. wouldn't we have found Him by now? Or Heaven? Or Hell? Everything is somewhere.
 

semilargeintestine

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Warning: This next post will be so controversial it's not even funny.
I'm an Atheist, may as well be upfront about it. I just figure that 1. my parents had the chance to baptize me years ago and didn't, so this is sorta their fault, and 2. wouldn't we have found Him by now? Or Heaven? Or Hell? Everything is somewhere.

That requires the old view that Heaven is a physical place (which it isn't), and G-d is a physical entity (which He's not).
 

entropic island

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Okay

Even if heaven isn't a physical place, it's illogical and a mental delusion. There is no 'soul'. There's just a cluster of braincells. That die. But don't worry. When you die, you won't know, so you can't be sad or anything. Just dead.

Sorry if I offended, I'm an impatient and easily annoyed person. Sorry.
 

benbradley

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Keeping in mind, among other things, Isaac Asimov's statement on God that the burden of proof is on the positive (as it is in any claim), I am a strong atheist.

I've got much more to write about this, I've "been around the block" as it were, I've ranted on a few times about a particular "non-religious" group that had me convinced in the existence of God for a few years, but I really need to write it in a memoir. Or at least a really, really big blog post.
 

entropic island

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As to oppressing homosexuals/femals/other races/and anything else: Why deny rights because of a loosely translated, shady book that doesn't even directly state that they're to be opressed? Ridiculous.
 

Rhys Cordelle

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From the outside looking in it certainly sounds ridiculous, I'd agree. But I think it's important to keep in mind peoples intentions.

If I consider, for a moment, that I believed in a god, and believed in the concept of salvation and the threat of hell, then I would certainly be going to great lengths to prevent people from ending up in hell. I wouldn't want to sit by and let people destroy themselves.

That's why when someone preaches to me about why I shouldn't be a gay atheist (a.k.a. the "double whammy sinner") I'm not offended by it if I feel that they are concerned for me. If they're gleefully telling me that I'm immoral and destined for eternal damnation then I might not be so polite in my response
 

Salis

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I'm interested in the core reasons why you believe a particular religion to be true, or why you don't believe any religion, if that's the case. If a personal experience of divine revelation is the reason then I'm not going to try to dispute that, but since it isn't a convincing argument to make in favor of your religion (particularly to strangers on an internet message board) please don't post such reasons here.

As this is a discussion that could easily turn nasty, I'd like to state right now that I'd prefer it if people don't debate eachothers reasons here.

In my own case, I am an atheist, and I came to that position for a lot of different reasons, but the key reason for me is that I haven't seen convincing evidence to support the existence of anything supernatural.

As a side note, if anyone DOES want to debate with me about their religious views, I'd be happy to have that debate through private messages, but please try not to do it in this thread. Too many threads get closed that way.

Thanks all.

Somewhat similar to yourself... although I'm less exceptionalist, I think. I consider myself agnostic--I don't believe in God or Gods, but I'm willing to accept the possibility I'm wrong. I just don't find it very likely, in the same sense I don't find it very likely that fire is actually caused by pixies moving really fast. I mean, it could be, but there's absolutely no reason to believe so.

Besides, the more we learn about the Universe, the more likely it becomes that if there IS a God, they don't really care specifically about us, and humankind's supposedly extraordinary nature is a principle part of most faith. This is getting kind of annoyingly niggly, but if we broaden the idea of 'God' to mean 'any being that is beyond our comprehension', then I'm much more likely to find it likely that there's something like that out there... but calling that God is, I think, like proposing that ants worship us as Gods.
 

Ruv Draba

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I don't believe in deities because I can't trust what people tell me unless I can test their honesty and competence and methods.

I also don't like deities much, except as characters in stories. Most seem to me to be nastier than the nastiest people I've ever met. Even if they existed, I wouldn't want to worship them.

And I don't think that every person absolutely needs a deity anyway. Some people without deities seem capable of being every bit as inspired and decent and kind as people with them.

And despite the bad things people do, I have quite a bit of faith in people. People have done better for me than I could ever do for myself alone. I trust my food, medicine, transport, education, security to people. I feel gratitude and respect for my species. I know we're fallible and sometimes stupid and bad, but I like how we keep improving ourselves.
 
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