? Cost for edit of MS

aruna

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reph said:
In the U.S., this is called developmental editing. An in-house developmental editor works with the acquisitions department, writing a report that enters into the decision to accept a manuscript or not. Copy editing is a later stage in production.

For the record; I know this. I've had three novels published.
 

ANNIE

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I may (or not) have paid to much for my edit, however as a novice, unpublished, housewife, nurse, horse trainer, who knew nothing about submitting a manuscript. This man's advice was invaluble to me.


I didn't know that you needed a certain font, or the proper way to number your pages. I had no idea my novel started off way to slow or that if the sory didn't start by page four the reader most likley would out it down. No One told me these things and I didn't know enough to ask or to even look for the answers.

I'm certain I'm not the only one who was in this situation. I got a rejection letter from an agency who told me to get a good editor and made a suggestion.

That was the best piece of advice I ever recieved. With this man's help - he did punctuaton, grammer, proper sentence structure, and some mild plot corrections, I feel that my novel might actually have a one in a million chance of getting published - better than before which was 0 chance.

I feel my story is much better now than before I sent it to him, and I can't remember who posted this, but I do feel I have learned enought to not mak those same mistakes in my next work.

So ripped off or not I have to say I have no regretts with the pth I chose
Annie
 

Jamesaritchie

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Editing

aruna said:
Aha. I see that your definition of editing is different to mine. My editor made absolutely no corrections of this kind. The advice was entirely on content: POV, structure, story coherance. And that IS a subjective thing; I might think first person is the best voice for my novel, the editor might think third. Who is right? That's purely a matter of opinion. I get the feeling sunandshadow is using "editing" in the same sense that I am.

I assume that as a (aspiring) writer you already know the rules os spelling and grammar. On the other hand, I see no reason why a dyslexic person couldn't tell a great story. In that case, I certainly advocate copy-editing.

No, POV, structure, and story coherence and not subjective things. Because people differ on how these things should be done does not mean they are subjective. What people disagree on are which is best, not which is right or wrong. Any good editor has the experience to know when these things do not work, when they're done so poorly the book has no chance of selling, and any good, experienced editor knows when these things do work, even if they aren't the way he would personally do them.

First person or third, a good editor makes it work.

And if you're paying an editor for content work, you'd better hire an editor with a ton of experience. An editor without serious experoience in the field might as well be guessing.

And in all truth, paying for an edit because you're dyslexic is the biggest waste of money there is. I know several dyslexic writers, a couple who are severely dyslexic, and not one of them needs to pay anyone for editing.

And in my experience, darned few aspiring writers know enough about grammar and punctuation to do teh job anywhere near right. The most common reason I hear for writers hiring editors is to fix their grammar and punctuation.

And in truth, the track record for edited novels is absolutely rotten.

With very few exceptions, a writer who pays to have these things done either doesn't really need them in the first place, or is almost certainly a rotten writer who won't be helped by the editing.

If you want to be a good writer, you must learn to edit for yourself. You must learn how to WRITE, and writing means being able to get content correct without paying someone to do it for you. When you have to hire content editing, you aren't the writer, the person you hire is.

No sane writer puts his manuscript in the hands of an editor who doesn't have solid credentials and wide experience in the field. And no good editor works with a writer who is good enough not to need the help, or so bad the editor can't help them.
 

aruna

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Jamesaritchie said:
No

And if you're paying an editor for content work, you'd better hire an editor with a ton of experience. An editor without serious experoience in the field might as well be guessing.

These are givens. It seems to me obvious that if you are going to get help, get the best. It isn't even worth mentioning!

And in all truth, paying for an edit because you're dyslexic is the biggest waste of money there is. I know several dyslexic writers, a couple who are severely dyslexic, and not one of them needs to pay anyone for editing.

That may be. My daughter happens to be dyslexic. She's a good storyteller. She needs help with her spelling. I help her wioth her schoolwork. Maybe when she's grown up (she's now 15) shemay want towrite stories, and may need help; professional help. If that's what she wants, I'd encouage her. What do the dyslexic writers you mention do, when they submit stories? Do they submit them full of mistakes, or can they edit them themselves? If they can. then they are not dyslexic.


And in my experience, darned few aspiring writers know enough about grammar and punctuation to do teh job anywhere near right. The most common reason I hear for writers hiring editors is to fix their grammar and punctuation.

And in truth, the track record for edited novels is absolutely rotten..



If you want to be a good writer, you must learn to edit for yourself. You must learn how to WRITE, and writing means being able to get content correct without paying someone to do it for you. When you have to hire content editing, you aren't the writer, the person you hire is..[/QUOTE]

No sane writer puts his manuscript in the hands of an editor who doesn't have solid credentials and wide experience in the field. And no good editor works with a writer who is good enough not to need the help, or so bad the editor can't help them.

I'm not sure what you're arguing about; what you say here is pretty obvious and absolutely correct. However, a good editor can help a potentially, good but inexperienced, writer to write even better. And I think that is the crux of the matter.
 
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veinglory

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On the up side that same advice about formatting and pacing of novels is also available here in these forums for free.
 

aruna

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veinglory said:
On the up side that same advice about formatting and pacing of novels is also available here in these forums for free.

That is true. And there are also mentors and such availble here. If you can get a good service for free, then go ahead! But not every good editor is prepared to work for free; and not every aspiring writer has knows where to find a free service. Some are out there all alone - just as I was; and it seems to me the best solution, when you are at the stage where you have the first draft of a mansucript that you sense is good but needs work, to get the services of a qualified freelance.
Sometimes you ned nore than general advice; you need someone with a keen eye to read the specific ms and give specific advice.
 

aruna

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veinglory said:
On the up side that same advice about formatting and pacing of novels is also available here in these forums for free.

And for the record, there is also a paid editorial service on this very website avaialble for writers. So the concept can't be THAT bad; which is the impression I am getting!
 

brinkett

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veinglory said:
On the up side that same advice about formatting and pacing of novels is also available here in these forums for free.
Formatting, yes. All other advice is general -- not about a specific manuscript that a person with credentials has read to completion.

I'm not sure what the big hoo-ha is over hiring an editor. If someone has the money, wants to do it, and hires someone qualified/with credentials, what's the skin off anybody's nose here? As long as someone knows what they want to get out of it and is satisfied with the results, who cares.

It's not an either/or - do the editing yourself OR hire an editor. People do both. And for those published writers saying "learn to do it yourself", I assume that when you've sold a novel, you're assigned an editor and they have suggestions for you. Why is it different when someone takes this step before they submit a novel, apart from that it's on their dime?

And believe me, there are a lot of published novels I've read that could have benefited from a decent editor. It's almost like some established writers are fast-tracked and don't get the same level of editing as they did with their earlier novels--unfortunately.
 

Tirjasdyn

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aruna said:
That may be. My daughter happens to be dyslexic. She's a good storyteller. She needs help with her spelling. I help her wioth her schoolwork. Maybe when she's grown up (she's now 15) shemay want towrite stories, and may need help; professional help. If that's what she wants, I'd encouage her. What do the dyslexic writers you mention do, when they submit stories? Do they submit them full of mistakes, or can they edit them themselves? If they can. then they are not dyslexic.


I'm severly dyslexic. This is what you do.

Teach her how to use spell check. Have her get in the habit of putting it down for awhile (whenever possible) she'll see the errors later.

Practice does make a difference.

Get her into writing classes. I started taking them when I was 15 at the local community college.

Invest in a laptop. Invest in a pda or daytimer. Keeping organized is key. Make lists.

Join a critique group or form one with friends. There are many that understand dyslexia.

Teach her that critques are good but you don't have to accept them.

Read. Read Read Read. Everything. It may be the hardest thing.

Above all stay organized. You will drown with out it.

Don't expect to submit right away. Write, put down,. write a new story put down, critque the old, write a new story, rewrite the old , critique the second. keep notes. My last short story took 1 year before submission. Eventually she'll get in the pattern where submissions are all the time.

Find a writing buddy that can tell when your story (not writing) is crap. We all produce crap sometimes but might not know it.

Keep a style manual of some sort around all the time. Pocket versions for fiction writers are every where.
 

aruna

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Tirjasdyn said:
I'm severly dyslexic. This is what you do.

Thanks four your tips, Trisjasdyn.
The biggest help I found till now was the book "Right-brained children in a left-brained world", by Jeffrey Freed; I read that when she was ten. It was amazing; using his methods, she learned to spell words backwards and forwards within minutes! (Very often, though, she'd forget with a very short time. Remembering is her big problem - in spelling and in maths.) However, that was in germany and a year later we moved to England and she had to learn a whole new language from scratch. The upside is that I then put her in a private school where she gets all the help she can need - very much one-on-one, so I don't have to do anything after hours. She also has a laptop - an ibook, which she loves. She is by nature very organised - much more so than I am - she just can't spell, and has problems with mathematics, as well. However, all she lacks she makes up for in other areas - she is extremely artistic and has a sense of social ethics far beyond her age - several times more mature than I was at her age. So she's doing well. There's no sign yet that she'll want to write professionally - she's more into art and photography - but she always had a love for stories. Unfortunatley, in Germany that was quashed as they harangue the children over spelling more than anything else there

There was a time when she had a problem spelling even words like "I". She's much better now.

I was actually asking James how the writers he mentioned cope with their submissions. I'd really like to know
 

aruna

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brinkett said:
I'm not sure what the big hoo-ha is over hiring an editor. If someone has the money, wants to do it, and hires someone qualified/with credentials, what's the skin off anybody's nose here? As long as someone knows what they want to get out of it and is satisfied with the results, who cares.

Exactly. If this board has shown me one thing (it's the first time I've ever been in a community of writers) is that all of us come from entirely different places, and have different ways to go. Some people start writing for fun when still in school; some spend years in writing class; many write short story after short story befotre they embark on that first bovel, and all of these have learned the basic rules of novel writing beforehand. (And, after all, we ARE talking novels here.)

Or some are like me: not a single writing class, only one writing book, and that not even one on technique (Becoming a Writer; more on attitude than anything else). Never a short story, beyond the ones I wrote in school, 40 years ago. (I don't like short stories, and so don't write them. Never wrote one.).

And then suddenly, this complusion to write a whole novel, and you write it. What the hell are you supposed to do, EXCEPT turn to a freelance editor? And I am not the exception. Many first time novelists are people who have absolutely no experience or training in the writing of fiction. They simply plunge in. SOme have natural talent, some don't. It seems I do, because the first mammoth novel I wrote (700 pages in first draft) was taken on by the first agent I approached, but never found a publisher. The second was taken on by both the first agent and the first publisher. But both needed complex reworking.

There are others like me around, I'm sure. No previous experience; just plunge staright in. I would say in such a case the very best thing is a freelance editor. Better than even the best writing class.

And it goes without saying that she should be the very best one can afford; preferably, someone who has worked at a big publishing house.
We pay for good writing classes; why shouldn't we pay for good one-on-one "tuition" if that's the best option?

I use the world "tuition" becuase that's what it is, essentially. The only way to learn writing is to write. The only way to learn where we have gone wrong is to have soeone tell you. This is tuition.


Which does not mean there are not other ways to get publshed. We al have different ways to go. I hate to see a way that worked so well for me (and others) get disparaged.
 
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maestrowork

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There are many ways to learn the skills. You can invest $500 in a writing class taught by an experienced writer/published novelist. You can join a writing/crit group (but experiences vary). You can hire a mentor. You can pay $3000 and hire an editor to go one-on-one (sort of your private tutor, using your own ms. as teaching aid).

Personally, I don't see problems with any of these options, as long as you are willing to pay for it, and you know what you're getting into. Hiring a "good" editor or mentor (and I emphasize "good") could be a short cut to learn a lot about the craft without spending weeks and months in a class with students of different skill levels...

It's just like anything else. If I want to learn a new computer language, I could either: a) enroll in the university (an overkill); b) enroll in a 2-week class; c) hire a mentor/tutor; d) read a book and learn on my own... they all have pros and cons.

Personally, I like taking classes. I think it's fun, hands-on, and I like the interactions between the students. I learned quite a lot from my writing classes.

However, I think the problem is -- if you write a crappy novel and you expect a book doctor/editor to fix it and polish it to publishable quality, then you're on the wrong path, IMHO. I think you might as well just hire a ghost writer.
 

Tirjasdyn

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aruna said:
Thanks four your tips, Trisjasdyn.
The biggest help I found till now was the book "Right-brained children in a left-brained world", by Jeffrey Freed; I read that when she was ten. It was amazing; using his methods, she learned to spell words backwards and forwards within minutes! (Very often, though, she'd forget with a very short time. Remembering is her big problem - in spelling and in maths.) However, that was in germany and a year later we moved to England and she had to learn a whole new language from scratch. The upside is that I then put her in a private school where she gets all the help she can need - very much one-on-one, so I don't have to do anything after hours. She also has a laptop - an ibook, which she loves. She is by nature very organised - much more so than I am - she just can't spell, and has problems with mathematics, as well. However, all she lacks she makes up for in other areas - she is extremely artistic and has a sense of social ethics far beyond her age - several times more mature than I was at her age. So she's doing well. There's no sign yet that she'll want to write professionally - she's more into art and photography - but she always had a love for stories. Unfortunatley, in Germany that was quashed as they harangue the children over spelling more than anything else there

There was a time when she had a problem spelling even words like "I". She's much better now.

I was actually asking James how the writers he mentioned cope with their submissions. I'd really like to know

The forgetting thing really gets me sometimes. I'll actually spell a word right but I'll think it's wrong. Sometimes my mind moves so fast I'll forget that I haven't written something down...the worst part is when I read over my work I read it as if what I haven't written was there!

As for your question, I would too, but that's how I coup with mine. Getting through a novel is lots of work though.
 

aruna

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maestrowork said:
There are many ways to learn the skills. You can invest $500 in a writing class taught by an experienced writer/published novelist. You can join a writing/crit group (but experiences vary). You can hire a mentor. You can pay $3000 and hire an editor to go one-on-one (sort of your private tutor, using your own ms. as teaching aid).
...............

Personally, I like taking classes. I think it's fun, hands-on, and I like the interactions between the students. I learned quite a lot from my writing classes.
..........
However, I think the problem is -- if you write a crappy novel and you expect a book doctor/editor to fix it and polish it to publishable quality, then you're on the wrong path, IMHO. I think you might as well just hire a ghost writer.

The premise was: a writer who already has a finished manuscript, and knows it needs work, but doesn't know what. I can't believe that at this late stage a writing class would offer the precise, specific help that a one-on-one qualified editor/mentor could.


And then again, a writing class is not an option available to everyone. One of the advantages of the writing career is that you can do it ANWHERE. What if you happen to live in the middle of the Amazon - or, as in my case, a remote German village? How can you attend a writing class? What if you are so tied down with your day job, or if you are a single mom of small kids (or not even single) and just can't find the time for writing cass?

A freelance editor, however, can always be reached by snail mail or email - no matter where you live.

It seems to me, as well, that American editors are overpriced. $3000 seems far too much. I paid a little over $600 for my editor's report, and it was very detailed. She was one of the very best British freelancers, and still is. I would suggest to American writers to cast their eyes to Britain if they are looking for editing help.
There was no spelling or grammar help involved. She just mentioned that my work had a lot of typos and should be tidied up before submission - but in fact she submitted it herself in the end.


As for the crappy novel - trouble is, no writer thinks they've written a crappy novel, and that's the whole point: you can't tell yourself. So it would be the editor's job to be honest and say, look here, I don't think this can ever be publishable, and advise against a writing career. If more people turned to a freelancer before submission to agent or pub, perhaps those slush piles would be lower, and there'd be more room for the better stuff.

On the other hand, even if youi are told your novel is not publishable and cannot be made publishable, if you can afford it, why not still do the work on it, why not find out where you went wrong. You can learn an awful lot through working on it with an editor, and perhaps the next one WILL Be publishable.
I was lucky in that an agent took on my very first novel and gave me loads of advice on how to improve it. We worked on it for three years! That was three years of FREE editorial help. But who is prepared to do this kind of work with a new author, for free?
Finally, it could not be made publishable, but the work I did on it helped me enormously, and when I wrote the next one it was alreday much better from the outset.