Gimmick or not?

Status
Not open for further replies.

GreatQuestion

Registered
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
17
Reaction score
0
Normally I despise anything involving children (anything cinematic or literary, I mean; I'm not quite that hateful in reality), but recently, for reasons unknown to me, I began to write a story from the perspective of a third-grader. I hate it when books do that, yet yesterday alone I painlessly wrote 6300 words, and all of it recounted from the perspective of that young boy...

Is this a gimmick? I've always felt like it was - as if it were just a ploy, a fail-safe scheme to contrast the innocence of a child against the awful reality of the world while simultaneously generating an emotional attachment (oh, he's just so sweet! how can I not love this little boy?), etc., etc. So, yes, I am ashamed, but it just fits so well with the story... Is it widely regarded as a gimmick, or am I just unusually cynical? It wouldn't surprise me if either were the case, so that's why I bring the question here.
 

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
8,745
Reaction score
3,096
Location
Toronto, Canada
Website
www.adriennekress.com
One can write anything so long as one does it well.

Personally I don't find writing from the POV of a child a gimmick, but maybe that's because it has served me rather well over the last couple years and I adore children's literature (I realise you are talking about adult literature told from the child's perspective though). Also, um, I know you meant no offense, but in your attempt to demonstrate just how cynical and cool you are in your disregard for children in any media you have kind of have put down the taste of many many many authors on this site. Just saying. You may wish to consider the feelings of your fellow authors on a public forum. It is one thing to mention you don't like a genre, quite another to go on and on about your shame and fear that all such literature is gimmicky.

At any rate, the answer to your question is no it isn't a gimmick so long as you don't make it gimmicky, and yes you are cynical, but not unusually so.
 
Last edited:

HelloKiddo

bemused observer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
777
Reaction score
151
I've always felt like it was - as if it were just a ploy, a fail-safe scheme to contrast the innocence of a child against the awful reality of the world while simultaneously generating an emotional attachment (oh, he's just so sweet! how can I not love this little boy?), etc., etc.

Goodness no I don't consider it gimmicky. I found the above quote odd. I've never perceived literature written from a child's perspective that way. Many authors have done it very well. Perhaps you've just been reading bad books.
 

Exir

Out of the cradle endlessly rocking
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
1,758
Reaction score
174
Location
SoCal (Rancho Cucamonga)
Anything that works is not a gimmick. A gimmick is when something doesn't work, and then people find the reason.

Using a child character to achieve an emotional effect is not a gimmick. If you portray the innocence realistically, nobody will say you are trying to pull strings or push emotional buttons. It is only when the child character becomes a stereotype that it becomes a gimmick.
 

GreatQuestion

Registered
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
17
Reaction score
0
I meant no offense, truly, and it's clear that I am just a rotten cynic... I apologize if that's how it came across. I often have problems being "politically (or publicly) correct," so I'm likely to continue to offend some sensibilities on here... and I'll go ahead and apologize for that too. I don't do it on purpose; I'm just candid with my personal feelings, and those feelings are extremely subjective and rarely shared by others.
HelloKiddo, you suggest that perhaps I read the wrong books, but the issue is more likely to be that I haven't read enough of those books. I can actually only think of the few short stories here and there in different literature anthologies I've read, and few if any of them really appealed to me. I just wanted to see if others saw it as I did... and clearly that's not the case. It will probably be for the best if I just close this thread. I need friends here - I don't want to alienate any possible companions...
 

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
8,745
Reaction score
3,096
Location
Toronto, Canada
Website
www.adriennekress.com
It isn't about political correctness (a term that most use, once again, in the negative, implying that people who get offended by one's words are just too sensitive as opposed to the person who wrote the words taking responsibility for them), it's about understanding that this is a community made up of authors who write many different genres, and that coming in with a question like "Is telling a story from a child's POV a gimmick?" comes across as slightly too naive to be taken at face value and therefore possibly thus interpreted as a minor insult. Why on earth would the answer to that be yes? That would negate an entire genre (Children's Literature). Therefore, and you must forgive me, I saw you as trying to deal with your own insecurities by trying to demonstrate just how cynically awesome you were, and not truly as someone in search of an answer.

However this is my misinterpretation obviously, and I apologise. I guess at times questions like yours, as well as the "am I allowed to" questions utterly confuse me, as I've never thought that anything in writing couldn't be done. With the caveat of making sure you do it well. Cliches can be useful, gimmicks can work, tropes can be subverted, and the rules (guidelines) can be broken. Have no fear in your writing, trust your abilities. Open your mind even to the things that up until now turned you off. Enjoy the process, don't be afraid of failing, and don't limit yourself through the blanket excuse of cynicism. Being a cynic in this day and age is extremely easy and I've never really understood why so many people love to brag about the fact that that's what they are. It's optimism and hope, taking chances in the face of adversity, that's unusual.

Have faith in yourself, seriously, you might just surprise yourself! :)
 
Last edited:

dgiharris

Disgruntled Scientist
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
6,735
Reaction score
1,833
Location
Limbo
I didn't interpret your question as rude, just a bit naive.

When we start out writing, we all have preconcieved notions about writing, publishing, what is acceptable, etc. etc.

I took the question more in that vein.

The quick answer as indicated above, is you can do anything as long as it works.
There have been plenty of great stories, and literature that has been told from a child's perspective. The Red Badge of Courage was told from a child's perspective.

Also, feel free to ask any questions that you have. You are amoung friends here that understand exactly what you are going through and how you feel.

Mel...
 

TrickyFiction

Who?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
1,123
Reaction score
146
Location
on the precious Pacific.
Children are people too, and they have stories to tell that are every bit as valid as their adult counterparts. Especially if you find this character's voice natural and easy for you to write, you should write it. It may be this character has a lot to teach you.
 

GreatQuestion

Registered
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
17
Reaction score
0
Toothpaste, again, I'm sorry for saying what was said in the way that it was said (does that make sense?). I regret writing the original post in such a way that it has offended or has the capacity to offend many of the writers here, and I know I could have composed it in a much more sensitive and considerate manner. It was remarkably stupid - no, better yet, as you and others have pointed out naive - to approach it in the way that I did, and I'm sorry for that. I honestly didn't intend for it to be a "take a look at how coolly cynical I am" kind of post, although I understand how it could be seen in that light. But I have honestly held the convictions voiced in the first post for a long time, and I thought that many others would feel the same way. I'm not sure why I feel that way, or why I expected others to do so, but I'm sorry I approached it in the way that I did. I would go back and edit the original post, but, instead, I'll leave it as-is to serve as a reminder for myself to consider the feelings of the broader AW community before posting any sort of unfairly prejudicial comments. I apologize. Sadly, I've learned not just from this post (and I'm guessing some of you won't be surprised here) but in other posts of mine as well that I clearly do not share the same sentiments as many of the members here, and I have a terrible habit of being unnecessarily abrasive (on the internet, that is, for some odd reason, even though I'm as meek as a church mouse in reality...), so I will do my best to learn to be more mature and reserved in my posts here as I get a feeling for the way in which this board conducts itself and for the inclinations and dispositions of its members. Again, I'm sorry. Please don't hate me. I've only been here four days.
 

geardrops

Good thing I like my day job
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 3, 2007
Messages
2,962
Reaction score
629
Location
Bay Area, CA
Website
www.geardrops.net
To reinforce what's already been stated...

If you are using the character's age with the intent of forcing sympathy, with no other mechanism in place to draw the reader into caring for your character, then it's a gimmick, poorly-executed.

But writing from a child's perspective is not gimmicky, in and of itself.

And GreatQuestion your question wasn't rude, nor have your responses been, IMHO, so there's no need for apologies :)
 

GreatQuestion

Registered
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
17
Reaction score
0
To reply to the general response here, I see that all of you agree it's not a gimmick - as long as it's done well, that is. Since it's hard to speak in generalities about such a thing, I'll just give specific examples from what I've written. The boy doesn't always understand the behavior of the adults around him. That's one of the things that bothers me about the way I've written the character, but I think it bothers me just because it's been done before, not because it's actually poor writing or a gimmick. Is it still acceptable to use that theme - the theme of non-understanding - without being called out for following convention? Likewise, he fails to understand himself completely, or at least he struggles to understand why he reacts in the ways that he does, and I worry that this, too, has just been done too much to make my piece stand out. But that very likely may not be the case, and I get the feeling that many of you would say it's not, so I'd be grateful for any discussion regarding these two specific examples.
 

Phaeal

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
9,232
Reaction score
1,897
Location
Providence, RI
Characters not understanding others or themselves. If that's gimmicky, we have to throw out most of our literature.

I'd say you're overthinking at far too early a stage in the story. Get the first draft out. Let it cool off. Then have another look.

Oh, and there's no Writing Acceptability Board. You get to write whatever you want.

Then the agents get to rep whatever they want, and the publishers to publish whatever they want, and the readers to read whatever they want, and so the world wags on.

;)
 

HelloKiddo

bemused observer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
777
Reaction score
151
GreatQuestion--relax. Stop apologizing. Nobody's mad, it was just a question. We get into some heated discussions on this site, but you'll find they usually blow over as fast as they come. Dishes are thrown, mothers are cursed, doors are slammed--but a day later all is forgiven and forgotten. Water under the bridge, we're all best friends again.

The boy doesn't always understand the behavior of the adults around him. That's one of the things that bothers me about the way I've written the character, but I think it bothers me just because it's been done before, not because it's actually poor writing or a gimmick. Is it still acceptable to use that theme - the theme of non-understanding - without being called out for following convention?

I'm not sure if this is too conventional, but it could easily be done poorly. To me the good examples of well-written books from a child's perspective usually feature children who are unusually bright and insightful. That's why we don't see them as poor pitiful children despite their often rough situations. I'm thinking of Tom Sawyer, Jane Eyre, Heathcliff and Cathy Linton, anything by Dickens. It's also good to give a kid a bit of a backbone--make him fight back a little. If you just write a poor tragically confused child who never has any insight or stands up to anything you do run the risk of writing a poor-pitiful-child story.

Likewise, he fails to understand himself completely, or at least he struggles to understand why he reacts in the ways that he does

That is often almost as true of adults as it is of children. We rarely understand our own motivations well, even in adulthood. But remember, the child doesn't usually process that he's young and confused. His brain isn't ready to see that yet. From his perspective he's making the best decisions he can with what he has to work with. It's an adult brain that stops to question itself and try to undertsand its own motivations (at least it's an adult brain that should do that...sadly, that's not always the case.) If you have a child doing that you're not writing the child very accurately IMO.
 
Last edited:

geardrops

Good thing I like my day job
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 3, 2007
Messages
2,962
Reaction score
629
Location
Bay Area, CA
Website
www.geardrops.net
To reply to the general response here, I see that all of you agree it's not a gimmick - as long as it's done well, that is. Since it's hard to speak in generalities about such a thing, I'll just give specific examples from what I've written. The boy doesn't always understand the behavior of the adults around him. That's one of the things that bothers me about the way I've written the character, but I think it bothers me just because it's been done before, not because it's actually poor writing or a gimmick. Is it still acceptable to use that theme - the theme of non-understanding - without being called out for following convention? Likewise, he fails to understand himself completely, or at least he struggles to understand why he reacts in the ways that he does, and I worry that this, too, has just been done too much to make my piece stand out. But that very likely may not be the case, and I get the feeling that many of you would say it's not, so I'd be grateful for any discussion regarding these two specific examples.

Children don't understand adults fully. It's simple-as. Frankly the kid who understands adults reads unrealistic and gets obnoxious.

ETA: To pre-emptively counter HelloKiddo, being that we kind of had the exact opposite opinion, a kid shouldn't be spineless and weak. But on that same coin he shouldn't have flawless understanding of "the adult world." It's simply unrealistic. They should be clever, but not too clever by half.

And as far as the kid not understanding himself? Hell, I'm writing a novel with a 15-y-o protag and he doesn't understand his own emotions fully. I'm hoping he's not going to be outdone by a third-grader :)
 

HelloKiddo

bemused observer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
777
Reaction score
151
Children don't understand adults fully. It's simple-as. Frankly the kid who understands adults reads unrealistic and gets obnoxious.

ETA: To pre-emptively counter HelloKiddo, being that we kind of had the exact opposite opinion, a kid shouldn't be spineless and weak. But on that same coin he shouldn't have flawless understanding of "the adult world." It's simply unrealistic. They should be clever, but not too clever by half.

How do we have the exact opposite opinion? You just repeated something similar to what I said. At least it seemed that way to me.
 

geardrops

Good thing I like my day job
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 3, 2007
Messages
2,962
Reaction score
629
Location
Bay Area, CA
Website
www.geardrops.net
How do we have the exact opposite opinion? You just repeated something similar to what I said. At least it seemed that way to me.

It was comparing this....

To me the good examples of well-written books from a child's perspective usually feature children who are unusually bright and insightful.

.. and ..

Frankly the kid who understands adults (read: unusually bright and insightful) reads unrealistic and gets obnoxious.

Which is why I added clarification and turned into us saying very similar things :)
 

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
8,745
Reaction score
3,096
Location
Toronto, Canada
Website
www.adriennekress.com
lol, hon, as others have said no apologies are required nor do I hate you. I have my fair share in the misunderstanding (as apparently I am the only one who sensed a tone), and will admit to being quite sensitive to most any posts about children's lit. You might notice that I happen to write children's lit and I spend a fair amount of time defending its right to exist, as well as it being a valid and complex form of literature, in my day to day life. Thus I can maybe read something into a post that wasn't there to begin with. So I take some of the blame.

We is cool.

Others though have actually answered your question quite well, so I guess I don't really need to take a stab at it aside from saying that most everything has been done before, but that doesn't mean we can't do it again, and it can't still be fresh and interesting. Also don't judge yourself too early on in the process, let the story develop, give yourself permission to just see where things go.

And good luck!
 

Emily Winslow

Do Not Walk on the Grass
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 12, 2007
Messages
634
Reaction score
94
Location
Cambridge, England
Website
www.emilywinslow.com
Is this a gimmick? I've always felt like it was - as if it were just a ploy, a fail-safe scheme to contrast the innocence of a child against the awful reality of the world while simultaneously generating an emotional attachment (oh, he's just so sweet! how can I not love this little boy?), etc., etc.

Hi GreatQuestion--Welcome!

One thing in your question stood out to me: assuming that all children are innocent and sweet. I suggest you allow your character to be whoever he or she is, despite his or her age. While kids are by definition inexperienced compared to adults, what experiences they've had may well have made them cynical or angry or suspicious.

Certainly not all children have a sweetness that makes adults go "awwww!" Have you ever checked out the reactions of childless adults when a family enters a restaurant or an airplane?

And even the sweet ones can have a blithe selfishness.

Make sure your character is an individual, not just "a child(TM)", know what I mean?
 

GreatQuestion

Registered
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
17
Reaction score
0
lol, hon, as others have said no apologies are required nor do I hate you...

We is cool.

I'm glad to hear it. I was worried that I'd already failed to do what I came here to achieve, which was to some positive acquaintances with fellow writers... But I'm glad all is well. I'm definitely not opposed to children's or young adults' literature, and I meant it in terms of adult-oriented writing... but in any case I could have worded it in a more considerate manner and we might have avoided this whole mix-up, so I'll remember that next time.

Make sure your character is an individual, not just "a child(TM)", know what I mean?

This may actually be the problem, then... that I'm assuming every child character is exactly the same when, clearly, they don't have to be. Maybe if I write this young boy in such a way that he's not just a "child(TM)" I'll have a whole new respect for and understanding of children in literature... I don't know - sounds crazy, but it might just work. Thanks for all the replies.
 

jwallace

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
111
Reaction score
3
My two cents--I share the dislike of kiddies as central characters, but mostly that annoyance is reserved for Hollywood--takes a good director to get a good performance out of anybody, let alone a small child. In print, I think the perspective of an inexperienced observer (at any age) is a valuable tool for developing nuances in a story.
 

Keyboard Hound

Old kid. Tough skin!!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 3, 2007
Messages
674
Reaction score
132
Location
Appalachia
I'm also writing a book from a child's perspective, that of an eight-year old growing up in a depressed agricultural area.

As some have said, the child does not understand a lot going on in her world, but the adult reading it will know exactly what she's dealing with.

I'm close to finishing and thinking about the query now. Can anyone tell me what category such a book would fit? It's told in first person of an eight-year-old, but the story matter is definitely not for children.
 

Moonfish

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
256
Reaction score
40
Location
Northern Europe
Since you say you've mostly read a few short stories with a child's POV I'd really like to recommend Mark Haddon's The curious incident with the dog in the night-time which in some countries is marketed as YA, and in other as adult fiction. It is an AMAZING example of a story told from a child's limited POV - and in this case, an autistic child.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.