• Guest please check The Index before starting a thread.

[Publishing svcs] Smashwords, Inc.

Unimportant

No COVID yet. Still masking.
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 8, 2005
Messages
19,980
Reaction score
23,501
Location
Aotearoa
I'd agree that every book deserves to be printed, if the author chooses. But certainly not every book deserves a buyer, let alone tens of thousands of buyers, and it's ridiculous of anyone to think that because they typed 80,000 words, that automatically makes those words something that readers will want to pay money for.
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,934
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
Lulu is a large stable self-publisher that has been around for many years. So I do not see the direct equivalence. Not all self-publishing providers are the same any more than all commerical presses or all epublishers. The number of start-up and small ebook vendors is huge and the market us crowded. Especially as ebook readers have tried and true options to turn to.
 

M.R.J. Le Blanc

aka Sadistic Mistress Mi-chan
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
2,195
Reaction score
271
Location
At the computer
Lulu is a large stable self-publisher that has been around for many years. So I do not see the direct equivalence. Not all self-publishing providers are the same any more than all commerical presses or all epublishers. The number of start-up and small ebook vendors is huge and the market us crowded. Especially as ebook readers have tried and true options to turn to.

That is exactly my point. Currently, I see nothing that Smashwords does that can't be done at Lulu. And from the ebook arguement, there's nothing Smashwords is doing that probably isn't being done by an epublisher somewhere already. Any business that is starting in an established industry has to have something that makes it stand out from the rest. This is what my mom and I are doing with our soap business, that's the only way we're going to succeed in an established avenue.
 

eqb

I write novels
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,680
Reaction score
2,056
Location
In the resistance
Website
www.claireodell.com
I'd agree that every book deserves to be printed, if the author chooses. But certainly not every book deserves a buyer, let alone tens of thousands of buyers, and it's ridiculous of anyone to think that because they typed 80,000 words, that automatically makes those words something that readers will want to pay money for.

Bingo!
 

Smashwords

Registered
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
25
Reaction score
1
Website
www.smashwords.com
All, I have updated our About Us page and removed the "broken" language. I appreciate the feedback everyone here has provided and I apologize to anyone offended or put off by our initial messaging. Regardless of what anyone here may think, I do appreciate the value add provided by a smart publisher, a smart agent, or a smart bookseller.

@MRJ, if you don't see the differences, maybe it's because you haven't studied the differences. Beyond that, I realize you and many on this board have no interest in the self publishing route, and I'm not going to fault anyone for it. I sincerely wish you and everyone else here the best of luck. Traditional publishing and self-publishing both offer different benefits to different people, and they're both good.

@Julieb: I agree, the "limited" support provided by a traditional publisher runs circles around the support provided by a POD publisher.

@priceless: you're clearly a smart publisher. I disagree with many of your criticisms aimed in my direction, but you're entitled to your opinion. Time will tell if my crystal ball is foggy or not, and time will tell if many of the prejudices held here against self-published authors or self-publishing companies are warranted or not. I realize I'm an outsider to the book publishing industry, and if people want to discount my opinions for that reason, I'm perfectly fine with that. re: consignment, if a store can return their inventory, it is what it is.

@icecream: I think you are correct. The 80% rule is likely is a faux fact and based on bad accounting that improperly assigns fixed costs to the profitability of an individual title, which is why I have retracted it. I checked with a publishing industry veteran I admire (thanks J. if you're reading this), and he confirmed the same so I stand corrected.

Peace all.
 

M.R.J. Le Blanc

aka Sadistic Mistress Mi-chan
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
2,195
Reaction score
271
Location
At the computer
@MRJ, if you don't see the differences, maybe it's because you haven't studied the differences. Beyond that, I realize you and many on this board have no interest in the self publishing route, and I'm not going to fault anyone for it. I sincerely wish you and everyone else here the best of luck. Traditional publishing and self-publishing both offer different benefits to different people, and they're both good.

That's entirely possible. I don't admit to being an expert on self-publishing, I guess I just see it as what I can get with you I can get at Lulu, and their rep is pretty good. That could of course just come from the fact that you are a new company, and I know those things take time to build. My opinions are hardly set in stone, and often chance when given reason to. I have no problems with self-publishing personally, it's just not a route I'm considering for the time being. It can work if you work at it.

You've stuck around and haven't run at the hard questions, and that says a lot for your company (good, btw - I've seen a couple publishers turn tail and run when the tough questions get asked). Though if I may make another suggestion, you may want to drop the use of 'traditional' publisher. You're obviously trying to be really honest about what you do and what your company does, and the ones who do use that term are usually of the no-good variety. I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets a little on edge when they see someone use the term traditional publishing. Otherwise I wish you the best of luck too.
 

JulieB

I grow my own catnip
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
2,403
Reaction score
213
Location
Deep in the heart o' Texas
Mark, allow me to add my thanks for sticking around and answering questions. As MRJ pointed out, it says good things about you.
 

priceless1

Banned
Joined
Feb 15, 2005
Messages
1,622
Reaction score
446
Location
Somewhere between sanity and barking mad
Website
www.behlerpublications.com
Cheers to you, Mark. It's nice to see folks who will listen rather than blindly run themselves into a corner with their fingers in their ears while screaming, "La la la." If you believe in your services to authors, that should be strong enough without trying to compare and contrast to trade publishing. This is what raises red flags because many scam companies use this same tactic. You definitely don't want to be thought of as a scam.
 

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
6,449
Reaction score
1,321
Mark, I think that there's a lot of room out there for well-run self-publishing services, and your willingness to engage in this kind of conversation suggests only good things.

I'd chime in with everyone else who's suggesting that you be very careful about the language on your website: using vanity-publishing buzzwords like "traditional publishing" really does make a poor first impression.
 

Smashwords

Registered
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
25
Reaction score
1
Website
www.smashwords.com
Ice

Hi icecream, I appreciate the comments. What would you suggest is the best language I use to distinguish self publishing from traditional?

Thanks,
Mark
 

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
13,954
Reaction score
1,751
Location
Coastal Desert
Yep, commercial/trade publishing aims to sell to the general public. There's also academic and religious publishing, which should be self-explanatory. The term "traditional" was coined by the vanity press PublishAmerica, and is meaningless. Although, if one were to apply it literally, "traditional" would refer to self-publishing, since that's how non-sponsored authors published outside of college or church, back before the formation of commercial houses. Ironic, yes?
 

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
6,704
Reaction score
1,315
Location
Far from the madding crowd
Website
www.victoriastrauss.com
This news article about Smashwords is replete with erroneous info about publishing, and in describing the recent drop in print sales/recent growth in ebook sales, fails to note that ebooks are only about 1% of the total book market (that figure comes from this recent interview with the COO of Ingram Digital).

Here's the article's opener:
Like others, Mark Coker, a Los Gatos entrepreneur and aspiring novelist, has learned about the challenges facing new authors — many of whom never get published. And even if they do, aside from a handful of blockbusters, the few books that make it to the shelves of bookstores rarely stay there. If books don't sell well enough, they are sent back to the publisher and very quickly go out of print.
Sigh.

I suppose you can't blame Mark Coker for the reporter's ignorance.

- Victoria
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,957
Location
In chaos
Victoria, I can't get that first link to load. It could be my computer, which is notoriously glitchy, but the page just doesn't happen for me.
 

Smashwords

Registered
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
25
Reaction score
1
Website
www.smashwords.com
Hi Victoria,

In defense of the reporter, she's an amazingly well respected business journalist here in Silicon Valley. I'm sure she would have mentioned the <1% ebook market share if she had more space (it's mentioned all over our site, after all), but she was constrained by the limited word count of this type of short Q&A feature.

Best,
Mark
 

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
6,704
Reaction score
1,315
Location
Far from the madding crowd
Website
www.victoriastrauss.com
Mark, you're the one who didn't mention it.

Q Is there evidence that e-book sales are growing?


A Yes. If you look at book industry sales over the last five years, traditional paper book sales have stagnated. They've only been growing 1 or 2 percent a year for the last five years. And then over the last few months we've seen book sales drop off dramatically. Starting in September book sales fell off a cliff, down about 20 percent. And then October and November were equally bad. But at the same time, over the last five years, electronic book sales have surged, growing at a compound annual rate of over 50 percent. E-books are now the fastest growing segment of the book publishing industry.

- Victoria
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,957
Location
In chaos
And with all due respect, no matter how well-respected the journalist is, she should still get her facts straight.

(CP, I still can't open the link--the one you've given me just makes my internet browser freeze each time I try to open it: but I am on dial-up, which might have something to do with it.)
 

nevada

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 27, 2006
Messages
2,590
Reaction score
697
Location
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
To me, it read like the questions were submitted to the reporter ahead of time. There's not one question there that isn't belaboured on the smashword website. Every single selling point for vanity publishers is in there.
 

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
13,954
Reaction score
1,751
Location
Coastal Desert
(CP, I still can't open the link--the one you've given me just makes my internet browser freeze each time I try to open it: but I am on dial-up, which might have something to do with it.)
Yikes! But, yeah, it's one of those 1,001 frames and ads pages, so I'm not surprised dial-up would flee screaming. I'll PM you the text.
 

Smashwords

Registered
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
25
Reaction score
1
Website
www.smashwords.com
@nevada: FWIW, no, I did not see the questions in advance before the interview, nor did I supply the reporter with suggested questions.

@victoria: The published story represents a subset of all the questions and answers during our short interview. Did I mention it in this interview? Maybe, maybe not, but without access to the full transcript, I can't promise you. Do I mention it in nearly every in depth interview I do? Yes. Do I mention it all over the Smashwords web site? Yes. I have been publicly quoted on this as well - http://blogs.zdnet.com/feeds/?p=286 and http://www.mediabistro.com/galleyca...s_founder_on_the_publishing_crisis_103229.asp Going back as far as June 2007, I even reported on the numbers myself - http://venturebeat.com/2007/06/22/publishers-move-to-split-ebooks-into-pieces/
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,957
Location
In chaos
So that's one problem with the article dealt with: what about all the other bits of misleading information, or pure misinformation, that it contains? In my opinion, there are far too many of them for them all to be dismissed so easily.
 

ssnowe

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
80
Reaction score
3
Location
Tennessee
I'd agree that every book deserves to be printed, if the author chooses. But certainly not every book deserves a buyer, let alone tens of thousands of buyers, and it's ridiculous of anyone to think that because they typed 80,000 words, that automatically makes those words something that readers will want to pay money for.

What a great point, seriously. I had never thought about self-publishing in this way. Kudos.
 

Smashwords

Registered
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
25
Reaction score
1
Website
www.smashwords.com
@oldhack - If there are factual inaccuracies in the interview, especially in my statements, please itemize them here. However, if this stated "misinformation" is a matter of opinion, or based on personal biases or past experiences you've had with self-publishing or vanity presses not worth mentioning here, then there's little point in us arguing. I think overall the long thread here as been enlightening, and it has caused me to temper some of my comments in interviews and on my site, and to correct information I could not substantiate (see 80% above). Otherwise, we may just need to agree to disagree.

@ssnowe: right, I agree. If a writer can't write something that appeals to their potential audience, they don't deserve a single buyer.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,957
Location
In chaos
Mark, I'd be happy to indicate the inaccuracies and issues from the article linked to above. I’ll snip out the parts which don’t concern me to preserve bandwidth here, and out of respect for the copyright holder of the original article.

Overall, my feeling is that you’ve taken a lot of the rhetoric that we usually hear from vanity publishers who are pushing their POD-based, editor-free “publishing services”, and then used them to justify e-book publishing. This isn’t comparing apples to oranges: it’s using oranges to dismiss apples in favour of pears. While this sort of argument might appear reasonable to people who aren’t well-versed in the ins and outs of publishing, it reveals all sorts of logical holes to anyone with any real publishing experience, and can only count against you in the end.

Like others, Mark Coker, a Los Gatos entrepreneur and aspiring novelist, has learned about the challenges facing new authors — many of whom never get published.

There are several good reasons why most new authors don’t get published: most of them never actually finish anything; and the majority of books that DO get finished are dreadful. Only a small percentage of books are good enough to be published.

…aside from a handful of blockbusters, the few books that make it to the shelves of bookstores rarely stay there. If books don't sell well enough, they are sent back to the publisher and very quickly go out of print.

“Most books” don’t end up on bookshop shelves: that’s because there are all sorts of books which are unsuitable for bookshop placement, like text books, government reports, and so on. However, if we’re talking about books like memoirs and novels, then bookshops are still the best place for them to be sold if you want them to shift in any decent amount. And while individual copies of books which don’t sell well enough are sent back to their publishers, that doesn’t automatically mean that the book will go out of print: those two issues are completely separate. Books are returned every day because the booksellers get their ordering levels wrong: that doesn’t necessarily mean that those titles aren’t selling anywhere, just that they’re not selling in that particular shop. When a book goes out of print it’s because the publisher has made a commercial decision which is usually based on sales across the whole territory, not on returns.

A The process for most published books is that an author finds an agent, the agent sells the book to the publisher and then it takes anywhere from 12 months to 18 months to see that book published in stores. And then once that book is in stores, it's got just a couple of weeks to sell while the bookstore can still return the book for a full refund.

There’s a reason for that delay between submission and publication: books have to be edited, designed, and marketed; and printing takes time too (as does shipping the finished books over from the printers if a non-domestic printer is used). All this takes time: and if you’re aiming for volume sales you can’t afford to skip a single one of those initial stages.

I’ve already dealt with returns, but the idea that books have just “a couple of weeks to sell” is pretty silly. This can be true in some genres, like high turnover romance: but most books spend far longer than that on the shelves before they’re returned.

With Smashwords, the author owns the copyright, owns all the rights to the work and sets their own price for the book and the sampling privileges.

Any author owns the copyright to their own work as soon as they create that work, and they retain it even after publication, no matter which publisher they use, unless the publisher has a pretty nasty contract, or it’s work-for-hire (also known as writing for a flat fee). However, authors can’t retain all the rights to their work once it’s been published, because the act of publication uses up first rights, so they’re gone for good on publication in any form. And it’s those first rights that most commercial publishers want to sign up, which makes subsequent publication much more difficult for anyone who uses your service.

The author receives 85 percent of all the sales and we take a 15 percent cut.

I realise this is on e-books, which I have no experience of. But bearing that in mind, I still have concerns. This is of net, right? And how do you define net? Because if it’s not made absolutely clear then it’s a potentially a very bad deal for the writer; and even if it is a good deal, writers won’t be able to tell. We’ve recently seen YouWriteOn insist that its author royalty of 60% net was a vast improvement on the royalty rates offered by commercial or mainstream publishers, but it has actually worked out to between 8% and 14% of cover price, which is pretty similar to those mainstream presses.

I designed the service to put authors in complete control over their work.

Which implies to me that they can expect no professional editing or design, no industry expertise or guidance, and no professional, competent sales or marketing either. Control is not a good thing when it replaces expertise.

My wife and I wrote a novel about six years ago. We signed on with one of the top literary agencies in New York City, and after about two years they were just unable to sell our book.

Your experience is a common one. Something like half of all new clients that literary agencies take on end up not selling anything. Incidentally, one doesn’t “sign on” with a literary agency, one submits and if the agency sees something good enough in the work, it offers representation. I’m curious: who was the agent you signed with? That might well have some bearing on your experience.

It was a difficult experience for us to be rejected that way because we had shown the book to multiple readers, and people really enjoyed the book.

The people who you show your work to are, with all due respect, likely to be biased in its favour: if they’re your colleagues, your relatives or your friends, how likely are they to say that it sucks? And if they’re your colleagues, and your book occupies a genre related to your work, then they’re going to identify more with that genre than most people would. Especially if you’ve taken real-life events and fictionalised them, as you did: it’s likely that your colleagues recognised several of the episodes you wrote about, and so had a greater emotional involvement in them that other less involved people would feel.

I found it frustrating that a publisher would stand in the way between us and our potential readership. And it dawned on me that the system just doesn't work for authors.

The publishing system works fine, so long as you realise what the market is. Good publishers are in the business of selling books to readers, not in selling their services to writers. The publishing business works just fine for the writers who are good enough at writing strong, commercial work: it isn’t quite so good for people who can’t write well, or who won’t write commercial texts.

If authors feel that the system doesn’t work for them, they have to consider what their goals are, and how realistic those goals are given their ability and attitude; and consider the full implications of the alternatives to mainstream publication.

If you look at book industry sales over the last five years, traditional paper book sales have stagnated. They've only been growing 1 or 2 percent a year for the last five years. And then over the last few months we've seen book sales drop off dramatically. Starting in September book sales fell off a cliff, down about 20 percent. And then October and November were equally bad. But at the same time, over the last five years, electronic book sales have surged, growing at a compound annual rate of over 50 percent. E-books are now the fastest growing segment of the book publishing industry.

I was confused here: when you said, “But at the same time”, were you referring to sales of printed books in the period of September, October and November, or to sales over the last five years? Because it’s not clear at all, and very confusing. And a small logical point: a market which is still growing, albeit at a low rate of just one or two per cent, cannot be said to be stagnating. Either it’s growing, or it’s stagnating, but not both: the two terms are mutually exclusive.

E-books might be “the fastest growing segment of the book publishing industry” (and without wishing to appear snarky I’d like to see you cite your sources for that particular piece of information: I like to read solid publishing-related research): but that’s because it’s a new technology. Of course the e-book market is growing more quickly than the printed book market: it’s so new it’s not reached its full potential yet. But that doesn’t mean that its potential is going to rival printed books in the near future: it takes a completely different sector of the market place. Your implication is that e-books are going to take over from printed books, but I see nothing to suggest that this is going to be the case in the near future—certainly not in the next five or ten years.

MARK COKER

Age: 43
Birthplace: Berkeley
Company: Smashwords (www.smashwords.com)
Position: Founder and CEO
Previous jobs: Founder and former president, BestCalls.com; owner of Dovetail Public Relations
Education: B.S. in Marketing from U.C. Berkeley Haas School of Business
Family: Married to Lesleyann Coker
Residence: Los Gatos
Other interests: Hiking, gardening, traveling (has been to 20 countries and 49 states), hanging out in bookstores, collecting books, angel investing, advising startups. He is on the advisory boards of GetQuik of Sunnyvale and Flat World Knowledge of Nyack, N.Y.

FIVE THINGS TO KNOW ABOUT MARK COKER

1. In 1999, he founded Bestcalls, a Web service that opened up conference calls to small investors. The company was acquired in 2003 and is now owned and operated by the Nasdaq Stock Exchange.
2. He and his wife, Lesleyann, a former reporter for Soap Opera Weekly Magazine and a local actress, co-wrote "Boob Tube,— a novel about the dark side of celebrity culture (published on Smashwords).
3. He enjoys finding new mountains to climb and has bagged peaks as diverse as Mt. Kilimanjaro (19,340 feet) in Tanzania and Mt. Pico (7,713 feet), the highest point in Portugal.
4. He raises homing pigeons and chickens.
5. For 15 years, has owned Dovetail Public Relations, a Silicon Valley PR firm.

All that's very impressive, and you're obviously a capable, intelligent man: I'm particularly impressed by your climbing record. But nowhere is there any indication that you know enough about publishing to be able to start up your own publishing endeavour. Publishing is a difficult business to get to grips with even when you've worked in it for twenty years or so, as I have, and judging by your comments in the article, you've still got a lot to discover about it.

There. That’s why I didn’t like the article, and said it contained "misleading information, [and] pure misinformation". I hope I've helped. And I do wish you well: I've been very impressed with your attitude here, and hope it stands you in good stead.
 
Last edited: