• Read this stickie before posting.

    • In order to reduce the number of new members requesting a Beta reader before they're really ready for one, we've instituted a 50 post requirement before you can start a thread seeking a Beta reader.
    • You can still volunteer to Beta for someone else; just please don't request someone to Beta for you until you're more familiar with the community and our members.

Protecting Yourself and Your WIP

Old Hack

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A non-disclosure agreement is designed to stop someone talking about a specific incident or event. It doesn't have anything to do with preventing someone from plagiarising your work and while I admit I haven't seen the NDAs you use, I do not understand how one could be effective when used in the way you describe, nor do I see how it would provide protection over and above that which is already yours in law.
 

Thomas Vail

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If someone wants me to do them a favor and take on the cumbersome task of reviewing a full novel, then I don't also want to read and sign a bunch of legal agreements. I already know not to violate someone else's copyright, and that legal protection is inherent to the process.
If someone sent me legal documents to go along with a beta read, I'd pass. Even if that person isn't a little unhinged, it's drama that's not worth my time for doing a favor.

And along that line,
All of this is scary and fascinating.

I have a question: Prior to 911 I wrote a book about dream interpretation.
I sent it to an agent who requested to read the entire manuscript.
The agent sent me a rejection letter yet a year later a more famous author published an eerily similar book to include some of my quotes.
Some of those quotes were only different by a word or two.
This isn't the first time I've heard of a situation like this (Nancy Stouffer's claims that she came up with the ideas for ' Harry Potter' first, which despite the preponderance of evidence otherwise, she seemed to actually be sincere about, come to mind), and as always, I say that at that level, there is just no profit to stealing some unknown author's work and passing it on. For one thing, you need both a crooked agent AND a crooked famous author to be in cahoots on it, and for another, if they get found out, that's at least two ruined careers along with whoever else gets pulled down along with them, instead of the much, much easier path of, 'this new author has sent me a wonderful MS that I know the perfect publisher for, let's get it sold.'
 

TuckerMcCallahan

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Wow. I didn’t realize how much time had passed. I got caught up in work. But I didn’t forget this discussion. Pinky swear!

A non-disclosure agreement is designed to stop someone talking about a specific incident or event. It doesn't have anything to do with preventing someone from plagiarising your work and while I admit I haven't seen the NDAs you use, I do not understand how one could be effective when used in the way you describe, nor do I see how it would provide protection over and above that which is already yours in law.

You are absolutely correct in that a NDA won't stop anybody from plagiarizing your work. But that's not the point of a NDA.

The purpose of an NDA is to create a confidential relationship between a business with a trade secret - in this case me, an LLC with a new writing/editing project - and the person to whom the secret is disclosed - my Beta, who I entrust with my entire new, unpublished writing/editing project.

It's worth mentioning that you all are assuming a confidential relationship already exists when you vet a new Beta. But things happen. Relationships go bad. All a NDA does is create a legal, binding contractual relationship that states that your confidential relationship does in fact exist, and you're able to spell the terms of it out with your Beta.

As for a NDA providing protection over and above what's already "mine by law"? This is sticky. According to the letter of US law, I don't think it does. But oftentimes, these matters aren't decided in courts. As I mentioned earlier, I didn't get to go to court and have my grievance heard. I didn't have the money to spend for attorney's fees on top of paying for half (or more) of arbitration costs. In the end, the book my "friend" created and sold with my work in it only netted a few hundred dollars in sales (I'm holding out it was my work people paid to read; perhaps if she’d included more of it, she would’ve sold more books, LOL). Some arbitration firms won't even hear matters if the potential damages are less than $5000. For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of dealing with IP attorneys, the going hourly rate is between $200-300 (disclosure: in my area - northeastern Ohio).

For me, a NDA is like insurance. Copyright is good. Copyright plus NDA is better. Kind of like health insurance. Standard plan is good. Standard plan plus flexible spending account is better. Or car insurance. Standard coverage is good. Standard coverage plus rental car is better. That's the kind of person I am. Like I mentioned before… call me Fox Mulder. I’m paranoid, careful, and yeah… I have trust issues.

I hope that clears up why I use NDA’s. And I hope you good people won’t hold it against me. You know how the old saying goes: Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice… shame on me.

Be Well ~ Tux
 

Cindyt

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I've thought about getting a beta. I really could use the feedback, but I'm so paranoid. That said, I put a date and time stamp on my WIP. Might be willing to send brief excerpts and receive the same.
 
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mccardey

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I've thought about getting a beta. I really could use the feedback, but I'm so paranoid. That said, I put a date and time stamp on my WIP. Might be willing to send brief excerpts and receive the same.
What will you do when the time comes to go out on sub, if you don't trust readers?
 

Cindyt

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It's not readers I don't trust. It's the prospect of having my story stolen by an unethical beta that concerns me. I think everyone has that fear.
 

mccardey

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It's not readers I don't trust. It's the prospect of having my story stolen by an unethical beta that concerns me. I think everyone has that fear.
But my question is, if you don't trust beta-readers, how will you trust agents or publishers?

And - no, actually, I don't have that fear. I don't believe "everyone" does.

Best advice - get to know your beta before you send your book out. But that would only be sensible anyway, since you'd want to know how seriously to take their advice (and also - it's such a favour, beta-reading: it isn't something you can really expect a total stranger to do.)
 

CassandraW

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It's not readers I don't trust. It's the prospect of having my story stolen by an unethical beta that concerns me. I think everyone has that fear.

I don't. Not even a tiny bit.

Your work is copyrighted as soon as you write it. Presumably you'll have copies of your work and earlier drafts. It would be easy to prove you wrote it, and easy to prove you gave it to the beta.
 

AW Admin

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In order to enforce an NDA (speaking as someone who has signed hundreds and issued fifteen or twenty to large groups of software users and developers) you have to take the person to court.

It's pretty useless without a corporation and fleet of attorneys on retainer.

You have copyright as creator ab ovo; the second you begin creation, you have copyright and retain all rights until you contractually sell or lease them or give them away.

Don't trust someone? Don't have them beta.
 

CassandraW

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Speaking as a lawyer, I concur that an NDA is pretty useless in this situation and adds nothing to the copyright protection you already have.
 

Cindyt

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Editing apps aren't replacements for beta readers and beta readers aren't replacements for editors. I realize this.

What's the outcome you're after?
I've had images stolen from my websites so I guess my distrust stems from that. I am looking for lack of consistency, whether something makes sense, grammar, and the like. I cannot afford to send a work to an editor, nor sue someone for copyright theft. So I'm stuck, aren't I?
I
 
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mccardey

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I've had images stolen from my websites so I guess my distrust stems from that. I am looking for lack of consistency, whether something makes sense, grammar, and the like. I cannot afford to send a work to an editor, nor sue someone for copyright theft. So I'm stuck, aren't I?
I
No, you're not. Stick around, get to know some people here, build up trust between you and them, and you'll find you don't need to rely on an app. No-body here wants to steal your work - everyone's too busy with their own!
 

Helix

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I've had images stolen from my websites so I guess my distrust stems from that. I am looking for lack of consistency, whether something makes sense, grammar, and the like. I cannot afford to send a work to an editor, nor sue someone for copyright theft. So I'm stuck, aren't I?
I

I understand! I've had pictures lifted too. Some people think that what they see on the internet is fair game.

But, as mccardey and others have said, you can get excellent feedback here. It's a matter of building rapport etc.
 

Cindyt

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I'm sure you're right. And thanks.
No, you're not. Stick around, get to know some people here, build up trust between you and them, and you'll find you don't need to rely on an app. No-body here wants to steal your work - everyone's too busy with their own!

I understand! I've had pictures lifted too. Some people think that what they see on the internet is fair game.

But, as mccardey and others have said, you can get excellent feedback here. It's a matter of building rapport etc.
I'll take your advice. Thank you.
 

Yportne

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This thread changed my thinking on beta readers. Thanks everyone. Good advice all around. Encourages me to wait a while before asking for that kind of help. Probably wise to make it known here and there that I am looking for that kind of help. Might encourage others to put me in their watch list?
 

folclor

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This is really enlightening. I am near the end of my rough draft of my novel and was talking to my husband and his family last night about beta readers as I know a couple of people I'd like to use as such already (though I'll likely end up wanting more than two in the end). While my mother-in-law found this idea fascinating both my husband and father-in-law insisted I go to an attorney and draw up an NDA despite the fact that I hand write (with dates) before I type and save each new draft as a different version. I came here hoping to find information on whether NDAs were standard in this matter and I'm so glad I read this thread!

Thank you for your wonderful advice!
 

Old Hack

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A non-disclosure agreement wouldn't prevent them from pirating your work, only from discussing it with other people.

If you have good betas you don't need anything like that, and you wouldn't work with poor ones, would you?
 

folclor

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Thank you for explaining to me, in the past and reiterating now, that an NDA isn't what one should aim for in a trusting relationship with beta readers.
 

yellosharpie

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If you choose to have a beta reader, you should take some precautions to protect yourself and your work. The majority of individuals who volunteer to be beta readers really are excellent, excellent people, and you can find proof of that in some other stickied threads in the forum. Beta-author plagiarism isn't common, but it's impractical to suggest plagiarism doesn't exist. Fear of this kind of plagiarism shouldn't stop you from finding a beta reader. However, no matter what, you should always take measures to protect your work.

1. Check out the copyright laws of your area. United States copyright laws (linked) state that "Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device."

2. Know your beta. Don't send your work over the Internet to someone you do not trust 100 percent. It's okay to start small--send a chapter or two before the entire manuscript. This is also a way to make sure you and your beta are a good match. The same goes for betas: Know your author.

3. Agree on the level of criticism. If you want a line-by-line critique, make sure your beta is willing to provide one. Many do not go into in-depth critiques. When authors and betas agree upfront on the level of critique, they are more likely to see the project through.

4. Save old drafts. Although it's unnecessary to e-mail yourself a copy of your work (check out the "poor man's copyright" in the link above) to be protected, it's not a bad idea to have dated drafts of your WIP.

5. Save correspondence between you and your beta. This kind of violates #2, since you should be trusting your beta 100 percent. Still, having proof of correspondence is helpful for both you and your beta.

6. Beta readers are not for everyone. If you don't want to share your work, you don't have to.

To all of you wonderful beta readers out there: Don't depress. We're not accusing you guys of thievery. Still, it's great to recognize on both sides that the issue of plagiarism does exist. Protecting yourself from potential accusations is as important as a writer protecting his or her work.
This has me super worried. When I first started writing years ago, I remember freely sharing my story with people in groups. But it seems different now, and even though I want (need) betas, I feel somewhat uncomfortable with it.
 

mccardey

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This has me super worried. When I first started writing years ago, I remember freely sharing my story with people in groups. But it seems different now, and even though I want (need) betas, I feel somewhat uncomfortable with it.
I wouldn't worry too much.
 
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lizmonster

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I wouldn't worry too much.
This. Specifically:

- Most writers have too many ideas and are vanishingly unlikely to steal yours.
- No idea is really unique.
- If you're concerned about plagiarism, you're actually better off with more betas, because then you have evidence from multiple sources that a piece is yours.

But truly, this is a thing that happens almost never.
 

Unimportant

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This has me super worried. When I first started writing years ago, I remember freely sharing my story with people in groups. But it seems different now, and even though I want (need) betas, I feel somewhat uncomfortable with it.
If I were going to plagiarise, which I ain't, but based on what I've seen happen, I'd pick a successful book that is either out of date and then update it, or is out of my genre and then twist it. Guaranteed short term gain, at the least.

Stealing an unpublished work that the original author hasn't managed to monetize? Not worth the effort.
 
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