High Price of Gas Discussion(s)

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Shadow_Ferret

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"I'd like to think" is what I keep hearing from people who are barely concerned about all of this.

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It comes from people who have faith in Mankind and its ability to overcome diversity.

So yes, in a way I'm barely concerned because I believe we'll overcome this.
 

Plot Device

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It comes from people who have faith in Mankind and its ability to overcome diversity.

So yes, in a way I'm barely concerned because I believe we'll overcome this.


I won't become as relieved as you until I see the new energy sources actually coming on line--in MASS quantities, and in GRID-LEVEL capacities.
 

maestrowork

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Progress takes time. We still have maybe another 150 years to go with fossil fuel. I think we have time to mass produce and distribute alternate energy if we start now.
 

Robert Toy

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I won't become as relieved as you until I see the new energy sources actually coming on line--in MASS quantities, and in GRID-LEVEL capacities.
IMHO unless you are very young, the chances of seeing new alternate source in mass quanties is slim to none.
 

Plot Device

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Progress takes time. We still have maybe another 150 years to go with fossil fuel.

Not if our demand keeps increasing the way it has been these past five years.

I think we have time to mass produce and distribute alternate energy if we start now.

I would LOVE for us to start now. (Please ... won't someone PLEASE start now?????)
 

maestrowork

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Not if our demand keeps increasing the way it has been these past five years.

I think that's the exact kind of doomsday stuff Ferret was objecting to.

Please. There is still more oil than we can consume in our lifetime.

We should worry about 2012 when the world is supposed to end.
 

Plot Device

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I think that's the exact kind of doomsday stuff Ferret was objecting to.

Please. There is still more oil than we can consume in our lifetime.



But we (the planet) already consume 87 million barrels a day. And so the question on the table is: can we lift 87 million barrels per day out of the ground indefinitly??

And what happens when we reach the day when we can only lift 80 million barrle per day out of the ground?

And then the day when we can only lift 65 million barrels per day out of the ground?

And on and on.

And how soon before that day arrives?

And will we have at that point a back-up plan of three hundred nuclear power plants all ready and waiting to get switched on?


We should worry about 2012 when the world is supposed to end.

Actually 2012 is the projected year of total breakdown by a lot of Peak Oilers. It's going to get very difficult in 2010, 2011 will be the hanging-on-by-our-fingernails year, and then 2012 will be the big blowout.







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Shadow_Ferret

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But we (the planet) already consume 87 million barrels a day. And so the question on the table is: can we lift 87 million barrels per day out of the ground indefinitly??
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I don't think anyone thinks we can do this indefinately, and no one has suggested we should. This current "crisis" is a wakeup call. Many Americans are changing their habits. Their dumping their gas-guzzlers and buying Prius's. Congress is passing higher CAFE standards. Corporations are investing into R&D (and have been for some time) into new sources of renewable energy.

Unless oil dries up tomorrow, we're going in the right direction and we'll reduce our dependency on fossil fuels to a more manageable level long before the supplies are gone.
 

robeiae

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They knew that they could no longer live the life of ease they had been living for decades. The plantation system of opulance for the wealthy landowner would not be able to continue without the support of the slaves. Once they slave labor force was replaced by a PAID labor force, their extravagant life of luxury would be done away with.
Actually, that's completely incorrect. The typical plantation owner was not living a life of ease. Sure, there were some, particularly in South Carolina. But they weren't typical, at all. And the reality is, a paid labor system would have increased productivity, lowered overhead, and increased profits. Slave-labor economies are terribly unproductive, as are serf and peasant systems. This is the reality of history.

And in the specifics of the U.S., the North had the money, not the South. The wealthy elites in the Northeast had the real life of ease. 'Course many of them worked their butts of to get to that life, but nonetheless...
The upper-upper elite of wealthy Southerners was doomed and they would all need to drastically lower their standards of living. Their way of life would not be able to continue.
I can give you a reading list on the topic, if you like. It happens to be one of my specialities. As I said, there were not all that many of these upper-upper elites. And the ones that existed were making money outside of their plantations. And for the most part, their standards of living included a great deal of manual labor, even with all the servants many had. You're envisioning a world of Gone With The Wind plantations, but while there is much truth here--for some--there is also much left unsaid.

Just as OUR way of life here in 21st cenury America will not be able to continue either. (It will soon be ... gone ... with the wind.)
Your comparison is flawed.
 

Tirjasdyn

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Actually 2012 is the projected year of total breakdown by a lot of Peak Oilers. It's going to get very difficult in 2010, 2011 will be the hanging-on-by-our-fingernails year, and then 2012 will be the big blowout.


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:ROFL:

Sorry your argument just blew up there.

Name one respected "peak oiler" that says 2012 is the end date and doesn't try to justify it with the Mayan Calendar.

Then we can get out of voodoo land and back on track.
 

Plot Device

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I don't think anyone thinks we can do this indefinately, and no one has suggested we should. This current "crisis" is a wakeup call. Many Americans are changing their habits. Their dumping their gas-guzzlers and buying Prius's. Congress is passing higher CAFE standards. Corporations are investing into R&D (and have been for some time) into new sources of renewable energy.

Unless oil dries up tomorrow, we're going in the right direction and we'll reduce our dependency on fossil fuels to a more manageable level long before the supplies are gone.

I'm not talking about the supplies being gone.

If you keep on believing that I'm talking about "gone" then I can't continue to talk to you, because if you believe that's where I'm coming from, then the rest of what I say has no meaning.




I'm REALLY talking about the world demanding 87 million barrels of oil every single day. But the day will come (soon!) when our ability to lift 87 million barrels per day out of the ground slips down to just 82 million barrels a day. Even if that slippage were to plateau (stabilize, but I doubt it) at just 82 million barrels per day indefinitely, that shortfall of 5 million barrels a day is what will be our undoing.

On Monday we'll be 5 million barrels short.
On Tuesday we'll be 10 million barrels short.
On Wednesday we'll be 15 million barrels short.
On Thursday we'll be 20 million barrels short --and 20 million barrels is what the USA currently consumes on a daily basis.

Multiply this out over the course of several weeks, or months, or even over JUST ONE YEAR and the picture it paints is not pretty. And out of all the nations that this will harm, the USA will suffer the GREATEST harm because we are the most prolific consumers of oil, as well as the most utterly dependent on oil.

--Airlines will shut down.
--Cross-country truckers will severely cut back their operations.
--Plastics manufacturers will lay off entire shifts and possibly shut down completely. (Plastics are made almost entirely from petroleum.)
--Medical manufacturing will severely cut back in their productions because petroleum is an important component in almost all medical supplies from the laytex gloves to the IV bags. Can you imagine the shortages that hospitals will start suffering from coast to coast? And even if a medical manufacturer in Pennsylvania were to promise a shipment of their absolute last inventory to a hospital in California, what long-haul trucking outfit is going to make the delivery????

If supply and demand were to TRULY kick in, then some enterprising trucker somewhere would probably agree to make that deliver IF the price was right. So that one shipment of medical supplies will cost an astronomical amount to be delivered. And guess who that cost gets passed along to? The answer is it gets passed to the competant and economically strong safety net of the American health care system that can weather any storm and always pay the bills on time with the least amount of red tape and administrative hassle without ever once burdening the patient with unweildy co-pays.



More bad news:

--Roads are a petroleum product, so they will start to fall into disrepair as municipalities from coast to coast suffer from serious budget squeezing and need to cut back. (Didn't all of our fifth grade history teachers tell us that one of the first signs of a society on the verge of collapse is found in the neglect, breakdown, and eventual failure of its internal road systems?)
--Fire and ambulances need petroleum, so municialities will cut back on fire and ambulance personel as they try to keep the diesel tanks of the fire trucks and abulances full. So we'll have skeleton fire crew and skeleton ambulanc crews, and only half-full tanks in their vehicles.
--Heating bills will become so burdensome to people AND to municipalities that it will become normal for the thermostat of any civic building to be set at 50 degrees all winter. And private citizens will resort to using fireplaces --perhaps illegal and makeshift ones. Those illegal fireplaces will often result in house fires and the need of fire fighters to come running--lets hope the fire fighters can actually get there (I am right now thinking of the firefighter played by Mark Wahlberg peddling on that kiddie bicycle in the movie I Love Huckabees).
--Yellow school bus fleets will become such a burden that more students will be required to walk to school. The push and shove of trying to balance out the school budget with those yellow school buses will be enough to break school budgets for many of the towns whose populations are very far flung. The so-called "regional schools" in particular will suffer the most because their student bodies are spread out over several hundred square miles.


All these details I've itemized will be the natural result of a petroleum shortage in this nation. And again, I'm NOT talking about petroleum being "gone" but instead about it being "in short supply."

Supply and demand.
Supply and demand.
Supply goes down, and then the price goes up. And up. And up.

The oil and the gas and the diesel and the home heating oil won't be gone, it'll just cost waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much. And the above-mentioned scenarios I've listed involve thousands of municipalities all across this nation who have NOT made ANY contingency plans to try and shift away from their usage of petroleum. So many thousands of municiaplities are clueless as to what's coming. Now IF every last one of those municipalities were to try and shift away from petroleum starting at midnight tonight, it would take no less than five years (fifteen years is more like it) and many millions of dollars per municipality to reach a functional and practical point of a petroleum-free infrastructure. Building loads and loads of smaller school houses in every last neighborhood where kids can walk is a good starting point. Either that or those towns all need to build their own nuclear power plants nearby AND convert all their yellow school buses to electric-based engines that can be recharged by that local nuclear plant. No matter how you slice it, it will take time AND money for thousands of municipalities to respond to this situation. But now .... sadly ..... because the oil prices have already quardupled on all those little towns, the money is running out on them at this very moment ... and soon the TIME will have run out on them as well.

We needed to have started 20 years ago.




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Plot Device

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:ROFL:

Sorry your argument just blew up there.

Name one respected "peak oiler" that says 2012 is the end date and doesn't try to justify it with the Mayan Calendar.

Then we can get out of voodoo land and back on track.

I'm sorry. :) I should have put a smiley face in that reply I made to Maestro (I mean it WAS Maestro afterall.) It was a joke reply.

But not compeltely. ;)

The current projections of a lot of Peak Oilers is that 2010 is when the pain starts to escalate (beyond what we're facing right now as far as prices). And then from 2011 to 2015 is the target of when we fall off the cliff. No hard determination of which of those 5 years from 2011-2015 will be THE year, but it will be ONE of those years. So I wanted to toss in the joke about 2012 (just because it was Maestro).

Yes, I should have put in the smiley. My bad.



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Plot Device

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And even if we do NOT hit "Peak" any time soon (personally I think we already hit it) the truth is that ONLY the difficult oil is left. And

"difficult" = "slower to lift from the ground/slower to process"
and
"difficult" = "expensive"

So even if we haven't hit Peak, we are STILL now entering the era of "expensive" and also the era of "harder to come by" (due to the slowness factor). Now as for "expesnive" that's the part that will make life itself more expensive. But the more lethal situation will be the "harder to come by" factor. That's the part when a black market for petroleum products (such as gas for your car or even heating oil for your house) arises.

That alone will ruin our whole century on us.





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Plot Device

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And another thing ... even if we don't hit Peak any time soon, we are already seeing what few remaining Petroleum Exporters there are left (and they are becoming fewer and fewer all the time) who are choosing to KEEP more and more of their oil for themselves and NOT send it out to the auction block for nations such as (oh, perhaps) the USA to bid upon.

So that right there is yet another factor that will make oil and oil products in our immediate future both "expensive" and "harder to come by."
 

Tirjasdyn

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I'm sorry. :) I should have put a smiley face in that reply I made to Maestro (I mean it WAS Maestro afterall.) It was a joke reply.

But not compeltely. ;)

The current projections of a lot of Peak Oilers is that 2010 is when the pain starts to escalate (beyond what we're facing right now as far as prices). And then from 2011 to 2015 is the target of when we fall off the cliff. No hard determination of which of those 5 years from 2011-2015 will be THE year, but it will be ONE of those years. So I wanted to toss in the joke about 2012 (just because it was Maestro).

Yes, I should have put in the smiley. My bad.



.

Okay I forgive you ;)

The 2012 thing always makes me want to shake someone.
 
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