"Too Many Writers Spoil The Soup"

I have to agree that a lot of people think they can write, but I have also met a lot of people who are genuinely amazed that I can write. I'm not going to be holier-than-thou about it, but it does annoy me a little when I hear about people who have "always wanted to write a book." You know what I'm talking about--someone that has never considered writing before but wants to write a novel. Why would you want to if you don't write in the first place? I ask because writing is an arduous process, as we all know. I love, love to write, but it's painful and you second-guess. It takes a lot of time and work. It's also a very private process for me....

I am always very supportive of new writers, and excited to meet veteran writers (because so few of us expose our love of it, we've become used to people not caring), but I can't understand why there are people who think writing a novel is something you just do in your freetime.

I also work at a small publishing house that accepts queries. My co-worker is assigned to write rejection letters, and usually we giggle over the bad queries. You would not believe how bad some of these things are, and I'm not talking about the stories per se, I'm talking about the structure of the letter. As the lit agent says on his blog, many people don't even edit their letters. In fact, one person used a typewriter, with quite obvious photocopied pages. Their story was weird in the first place, but the typewriter thing creeped both of us out, wondering why exactly he needed to use an antiquated device.

Here's a word of advice from someone who works at a publishing house: USE a computer. It doesn't matter if it is retro to use a typewriter, or if it makes you feel like a real writer. They start to wonder things about you if you don't use the latest media. I mean, seriously, why use a typewriter when it's not needed?

You need to know the craft as well as tell a good story. I come across mispelling in ads, or in posted stories. I lose interest because the person is either careless or ignorant. If they are selling something, why should I trust them if they can't get the grammar or spelling right? Yes, it's easy for anyone to show they can write but without training and knowledge of doing it correctly, there's a gap of appreciation, of lost communication.

I learned early on about colors, mixing, etc as an artist. People use Photoshop and wonder why a certain tool uses a standard red/green, blue/orange, yellow/purple for fore/background in pictures. You can blend anything you want but these are the basics because they work. These are complimentary colors.

Or someone mixes black to make yellow darker--news flash, that makes green every time.

If you don't know it'll show.

I've been thinking lately that writer-wannabes must be proliferating, thanks in part to Internet phenomena like NaNoWriMo, easily posted fan/original fiction, access to other writers, and easy access to information on the submission and publication process. Hey, all it takes is a quick Google search to find out some agents or editors, then a quick email to put a query or MS in front of them.

I've also been thinking that agents and editors must be feeling pretty pestered by premature inquiries.

Well, it's as hard to develop objectivity about one's writing as it is to become a good writer in the first place. In fact, the two go hand in hand. Carefully, patiently. Young or new writers really need to take advantage of forums like SYW. If competent and sympathetic reviewers can stop them from sending out raw queries and scripts, those reviewers are the saints of literature, saving the neophytes and the publishing pros alike from disappointment and aggravation and doors unnecessarily shut.

heh, interesting.

Photoshop has a lot of people thinking they're artists!

When you are not in the middle of actually writing, I think it can be easy to romanticize the entire process. I mean, you see beautiful books everywhere brimming with the souls of their creators (yes, I am being melodramtaic--deal with it)(heh) and oil paintings that pillage your gut and hear master celloists carving sound from air and singers drawing the skies into their voice. How could one not want to be a part of that, not want to bare their soul and create something achingly beautiful?

And so technology has created an opening for every person to put themselves out into the world in hopes that somebody, anybody, will recognize the creator in what they have created and say, "I see you, I understand you, and I love you."

Again, I am feeling particularly melodramatic this morning, so take that into account with the above. Normally, I am quite practical and down-to-earth, I swear!




-Michelle

You're a writer. You're allowed to be dramatic.

mirrorkisses said:

You're a writer. You're allowed to be dramatic.

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Dramatic, yes. Melodramatic, shoot me now and free me from my misery!




-Michelle

I don't mean to be an ass, but it sounds like he is complaining about what he is GETTING PAID TO DO.

If he's so tired of reading trash, then get the heck out of the agent business.

I agree that there is a lot of crap out there. And yeah, it miffs me a bit when people think it's "easy" to write a book. But I'm also NOT an agent, nor do I ever WANT to be an agent.

I couldn't help thinking when I read that post that I just wanted to break out a little violin and play him a song. It's one thing to be a little annoyed by the submissions you get, but you know what? That comes with the territory. If it bugs you that much, then get out of the business and do something that doesn't bug you quite as much.

Personally, I didn't see anything wrong with the post at all.

Most of us vent about stuff with our work that makes us batty, too. Why should agents be exempt from that? Not to mention, I think that is a question a lot of writers and agents ask themselves every now and then.

Imagine sitting there, hour after hour, hoping to find a good query about a story that actually interests you, and instead you get poorly written queries that don't make much sense about stories that are either trite and cliched, or even incomprehensible.

Day after day after day. I'd get a little frustrated, too. Doesn't mean I'd be hating my job. It means I got frustrated with a certain aspect of it. Simple as that.

drachin8 said:

Dramatic, yes. Melodramatic, shoot me now and free me from my misery!




-Michelle

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*Pulls back the cocking lever*



Nothing beautiful in my writing, either all blood and guts and people hating, or an immense block of silliness.

I think it was the last line that got me... Can we fix it?

No, you can't fix it. It's one thing to vent, it's another to think that:

1. You can fix something like this to make a very hard job (I'm sure it's hard and frustrating) easy for you. It's part of the reason you make decent money off of other people's talents. Your gift is sifting through this crap so other people don't have to.

2. To assume that your viewpoint on what people are submitting is the be all and end all of what is "good". I mean, that's sort of the assumption that's being made here. What you think is "crap" is another man's "treasure". I'm sure there are a lot of universally bad writers out there, but not all the ones YOU reject are bad...they just aren't your cup of tea.

I get that it was just a venting post on what was probably a bad day, but still I would think that an agent would be more professional than that than to post this kind of thing publicly.

I dunno, that's just my opinion though. Take it for what it's worth (not much lol).

From what I understand, a lot of queries and manuscripts hitting agents' desks really are that bad.

Think about it. If simply writing a properly formatted and addressed query with comprehensible sentences automatically jumps you to the front of the line...the vast majority of them must be bad.

JimmyB27 said:

*Pulls back the cocking lever*



Nothing beautiful in my writing, either all blood and guts and people hating, or an immense block of silliness.

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Not every soul aches for beauty then; some just want to play in a pile of intestines and laugh as they reminisce about making Play-doh snakes as a child. I see that now, JimmyB, and I understand you, and...well, two out of three ain't bad!




-Michelle

I'm with Cranky, one isn't allowed to vent about one's job? It's the same response I at times get if I vent about a part of the publishing process - something that is genuinely frustrating and would probably frustrate most anyone - "What do you have to complain about, you're getting published!"

We choose our jobs, but does that mean that means we don't have bad days, have bad things happen, or see trends we'd rather see changed. I'm sorry but if over many years I saw the slush pile get bigger and bigger, and the quality get smaller and smaller, I too might want to say something about it. Especially when your job is being made harder by people who have no clue about the industry, or even what they were doing. Who are in effect disrespecting what you do, by their total obliviousness to how truly difficult a thing writing a book is.

I think what he is writing about is well worth discussing, and is very much an obvious trend. Aside from the fact that everyone learns to read and write, and self publishing makes everyone feel like they are published, blogging definitely has contributed. I think it's a pretty valid discussion to have.

ETA: "2. To assume that your viewpoint on what people are submitting is the be all and end all of what is "good". I mean, that's sort of the assumption that's being made here. What you think is "crap" is another man's "treasure". I'm sure there are a lot of universally bad writers out there, but not all the ones YOU reject are bad...they just aren't your cup of tea."

I thought you were reacting this way. The problem is, if you chat with agents, it isn't the MSs that are not your cup of tea that are the problem. It's the MSs where the author can't string a coherent sentence, can't spell a single word, sends their stuff to you on bright pink paper. Or maybe because they know you are a female agent, send some pubic hair in an envelope knowing you will stumble onto it (I know of an agent to whom this happened). When people like us read these posts, we think what your number 2 was saying. But that isn't what these agents are talking about. They are talking about the 95% of stuff they get that is actually unreadable. Not a MS that has too many POV jumps, or the main character is a Mary Sue. But utter dreck. I highly doubt that Mr. Lyons was saying that everything he rejects is this quality, I'm sure he rejects things that aren't just right for him, but someone else may like too. However in this post, I think he's talking about the proliferation of dreck.

I do think you may be reading a bit much into his post, assigning him a snobbery that really wasn't there.

Cranky said:

From what I understand, a lot of queries and manuscripts hitting agents' desks really are that bad.

Think about it. If simply writing a properly formatted and addressed query with comprehensible sentences automatically jumps you to the front of the line...the vast majority of them must be bad.

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I don't doubt that. lol

That's why I would NEVER EVER want that job. Not in a million years. I don't have a lot of patience to read bad writing. I love to read, but only if it's something decent (it doesn't have to rock my socks, but still).

But I think to myself...man there are things I hate about my job, and sometimes I'll vent them to a family member or a coworker. Would I get on the company's website (or my own) and publicly blast those things? No, no way no how. It's one thing to vent...but it's another to be professional enough to know WHERE and WHEN to vent.

Toothpaste said:

I think what he is writing about is well worth discussing, and is very much an obvious trend. Aside from the fact that everyone learns to read and write, and self publishing makes everyone feel like they are published, blogging definitely has contributed. I think it's a pretty valid discussion to have.

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Yeah, but also what he is writing about is a DISCOURAGEMENT to the truly GOOD writers out there. Those who are fantastic, but don't believe their work is good and are PETRIFIED to make a submission, even though their work would probably hit the bestseller's list given the right platform.

In my experience, the truly GOOD writers don't really think they are all that good, but almost ALL the bad writers I've ever read think they are GREAT.

Here's the thing, from my point of view. It wasn't just a vent. This is a trend that a great many people have noticed and have been talking about. He's not the first agent to blog on this subject, either, IIRC.

It's not unprofessional. What would be unprofessional would be for him to post some atrocious query and then laugh at it, and invite others to do the same and dogpile on. Instead, he's describing what he sees as a disturbing trend in the industry, and wondering at the root causes of it. If there is anything that can be done to fix it.

And yeah, a little bit of a vent, too.

Because I edited it probably after you read my original version, I just wanted to post what I added onto my post once more:

ETA: "2. To assume that your viewpoint on what people are submitting is the be all and end all of what is "good". I mean, that's sort of the assumption that's being made here. What you think is "crap" is another man's "treasure". I'm sure there are a lot of universally bad writers out there, but not all the ones YOU reject are bad...they just aren't your cup of tea."

I thought you were reacting this way. The problem is, if you chat with agents, it isn't the MSs that are not your cup of tea that are the problem. It's the MSs where the author can't string a coherent sentence, can't spell a single word, sends their stuff to you on bright pink paper. Or maybe because they know you are a female agent, send some pubic hair in an envelope knowing you will stumble onto it (I know of an agent to whom this happened). When people like us read these posts, we think what your number 2 was saying. But that isn't what these agents are talking about. They are talking about the 95% of stuff they get that is actually unreadable. Not a MS that has too many POV jumps, or the main character is a Mary Sue. But utter dreck. I highly doubt that Mr. Lyons was saying that everything he rejects is this quality, I'm sure he rejects things that aren't just right for him, but someone else may like too. However in this post, I think he's talking about the proliferation of dreck.

I do think you may be reading a bit much into his post, assigning him a snobbery that really wasn't there.

It shouldn't be a discouragement to the good writers out there. How many times have we complained about unprepared writers cluttering up the slush piles? It sounds to me like an agent using his blog as a warning to people who are thinking of submitting to him--a completely valid usage, by the way. He wants submissions that are well-written, correctly formatted, and well-thought-out.

*shrug*

There's nothing wrong with that at all. Besides, I vent on my blog all the time. The people who read an agent's blog are writers--he's giving them information they can (and should) use.

James81 said:

Yeah, but also what he is writing about is a DISCOURAGEMENT to the truly GOOD writers out there. Those who are fantastic, but don't believe their work is good and are PETRIFIED to make a submission, even though their work would probably hit the bestseller's list given the right platform.

In my experience, the truly GOOD writers don't really think they are all that good, but almost ALL the bad writers I've ever read think they are GREAT.

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So because some writers are scared of rejection, or don't believe in him/herself, an agent isn't allowed to post a very valid concern on his blog?

I'm sorry, but this is just no excuse. Part of being any sort of artist is getting the nerve to get your stuff out there. It isn't anyone else's responsibility but your own. Trust me. I am the last person on earth who should be an actress (well aside from the fact that, you know, I'm good at acting). Every time I don't get a part, I cry profusely. I can't play games, or try to flirt with casting directors, I suck at networking. But that doesn't mean the casting directors are to blame for my insecurity. I have had to teach myself how to audition, I have taken courses in it. I have had to just "suck it up" when I get rejected.

It's a tough world out there, especially in the arts. An agent is under no obligation to hold back on his thoughts about the industry because it may discourage some writers. Sorry.

Cranky said:

Here's the thing, from my point of view. It wasn't just a vent. This is a trend that a great many people have noticed and have been talking about. He's not the first agent to blog on this subject, either, IIRC.

It's not unprofessional. What would be unprofessional would be for him to post some atrocious query and then laugh at it, and invite others to do the same and dogpile on. Instead, he's describing what he sees as a disturbing trend in the industry, and wondering at the root causes of it. If there is anything that can be done to fix it.

And yeah, a little bit of a vent, too.

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Ok, let me put it another way (and please forgive my analogy lol).

Let's see you work at McDonalds (general you, and purely hypothetical). You take orders for the customers. Now, I used to do this, so I know EXACTLY how frustrating dealing with the customers can be. Some of the people that come in there you just want to punch in the face because they are so stupid, ignorant, or just plain annoying.

I can remember many a night when I could go back to my coworkers and vent like crazy. I didn't work the counter much (I mostly made sandwiches and stuff), but when I did the little vein in my forehead would pop out and I would turn into Mr. Hyde.

Never ONCE did I ever let ANY of the customers know about it. Nor did I ever write a letter to the editor of my local newspaper or post a bulletin on the counter talking about how a lot of the people who come in are stupid or ignorant. I knew better than to do that and I knew that I wouldn't change it, and that ultimately I would probably just anger the GOOD customers and put THEM in bad moods too.

What he has done here is akin to posting a bulletin out on the counter or writing a letter to the editor of the newspaper. Sure, he has every right to do so, but is it really good for the business he's in? What if one of the truly fantastic writers (say the next Shakespeare or something lol) avoids him because of such a post?

I just don't think it's a wise decision on his part to scare off potentially GOOD writers that he could represent just to vent about all the bad ones.

amen, toothpaste. You guys think SUBMITTING is bad? You should try AUDITIONING.

The worst (and best) months of my life happened when I lived in NYC and was doing the audition rounds for Broadway and off-Broadway. *shudders* My least-favorite word in the world is "Next." You go from the absolute limit of an adrenaline high to the depths of the lowest point of depression in about a minute if you're rejected.

Which you are. 999 times out of 1000.

Submitting writing is MUCH easier. MUCH. Trust me.

James, you're not getting it. The PURPOSE of an agent's blog is to give guidance to people who HAVEN'T submitted yet. The agent is telling prospective writers to make certain that their submissions are clean, well-written, and ready to submit. Numerous agents have this information on their guidelines, and numerous agents will go back and reinforce this on their blog entries.

It's standard practice. Get over it. It's not some vast conspiracy to keep good writers from submitting. To think such a thing is a disservice to yourself.