Adjectives and adverbs, and dialogue tags.

[celticroots]

Like the title says, my question this time is about adjectives and adverbs. Why are adjectives and adverbs not considered to be a good thing in writing?

And is using dialogue tags other than said, all right, as long as it's not overdone?

 

[Mr Flibble]

Re adverbs. Like anything, it isn't a rule, as such

It IS a 'think about it before you use'

Why? Because they can be (aren't always) a crutch. And can often be redundant.

For instance: He walked slowly....

Well, maybe use a stronger verb? He ambled, sauntered, strolled...


However, not every action has a stronger verb. Sometimes, for pace, rhythm etc you will need them. Just make sure you realise the difference.


Adjectives.. I've never seen a rule saying don't use them - no book would work without them unless it's one with no description at all... However, it is a common error to overuse them when you're starting. 'The biog, black, hairy, fluffy, mean dog.' Pick one or two that really convey what you mean. Be precise.

And dialogue tags. Well, it helps if you write so you don't need them as much (you will always need them to an extent) but a page full of 'he ejaculated' 'she retorted' etc gets tiring. Save them for when you really need them, and then they will have more impact.

Most writing rules aren't 'rules' as much as 'you can really cock this up, think about it before you use it'

Think of these things as salt

Too much makes a dish inedible

Too little makes i bland

Like Goldilocks and her porridge, there is a 'just right'

 

[rugcat]

Like the title says, my question this time is about adjectives and adverbs. Why are adjectives and adverbs not considered to be a good thing in writing?

And is using dialogue tags other than said, all right, as long as it's not overdone?

Not using adjectives and adverbs is like not using salt or spices in your cooking. Tends to make it a little bland.

Using too much however, tends to make a dish inedible. And a piece of writing unreadable. Less is usually more.

Same goes for tags. Overuse is deadly. Occasional tags other than "said" are fine. You just have to develop the ear to distinguish when it works and when it doesn't.

You'll find writers who are adamant that only "said" can ever be used, or that tags in general should be avoided at all costs.

Which is opinion, not fact, and foolish to boot. Dialogue is all about flow and rhythm, and the use of tags is a tool in the writers skill set.

Read writers you like. Read writers who are regarded as top rate, and see how they do it. You wouldn't want to copy what they do; there are no magic rules that work for everything. But try to get a sense of the different ways flow and rhythm can be established, and develop your own ear for your own writing.

 

[BrigidMary23]

The problem isn't really adjectives and adverbs, per se, it's just that they tend to weaken the writing. Any time you go for an adverb, you're using it to modify a verb, right? But really, if you found a better verb, it would be stronger.

He walked softly through the living room.

vs.

He tiptoed through the living room. or He crept through the living room.

In the latter example, it's just a better verb, giving a more exact idea of what you're trying to imply. Tiptoeing has a different connotation from creeping, right?

So that's the issue with adverbs. (Actually, I hate when people harp on adverbs, because those aren't the problem. The problem is really the verbs themselves!)

For adjectives, they're just so easy to overdo. Middle school creative writing classes teach us to be flowery with our writing, and it took me AGES to get out of the habit to write things like, "The melodious songbird sat on the aging, brown tree branch that hung with green roping vines and BLAH BLAH BLAH." Your eyes are glazing over already, right? I read sentences like that and just want to yell, "A BIRD WAS ON A BRANCH. I GET IT."

Adjectives just weigh down your sentences, and usually, they're not necessary. If you say grass, people know it's green. If you say sky, people know it's blue. If you want to say it's a midnight blue so deep it seemed the stars pinned it in place, then it must reflect something about your character. (Romance on the brain, maybe?) There's a rule of thumb that you should only describe what the reader won't already assume.

Finally, the reason people say to use "said" all the time is that the brain ignores it. When you start using creative little ways to avoid it, the reader sees that word, and it can pull you out of the story. I wouldn't worry too much about changing the word said unless it's really, really necessary. A lot of times, your dialogue is going to get it across anyway. Like, if someone says, "Get your ass out here!" no one is going to assume that's being whispered.

I hope this helps! Good luck!

 

[jaksen]

Who says these things? WHO? I want to run them through with a pointed thesaurus or something.

I mean, I'm so tired of these people who make the rules. I want to find them out and string them up.

 

[rugcat]

For adjectives, they're just so easy to overdo. Middle school creative writing classes teach us to be flowery with our writing, and it took me AGES to get out of the habit to write things like, "The melodious songbird sat on the aging, brown tree branch that hung with green roping vines and BLAH BLAH BLAH." Your eyes are glazing over already, right? I read sentences like that and just want to yell, "A BIRD WAS ON A BRANCH. I GET IT."

That is so funny. I once was helping an aspiring writer who had written almost that exact sentence, except iirc, the songbird also had beady eyes. I had the same reaction and advice.

But I do believe in the power of the specific, i.e.

A wren perched on the branch of a Sycamore tree.

 

[chicgeek]

The problem isn't really adjectives and adverbs, per se, it's just that they tend to weaken the writing. Any time you go for an adverb, you're using it to modify a verb, right? But really, if you found a better verb, it would be stronger.

He walked softly through the living room.

vs.

He tiptoed through the living room. or He crept through the living room.

In the latter example, it's just a better verb, giving a more exact idea of what you're trying to imply. Tiptoeing has a different connotation from creeping, right?

So that's the issue with adverbs. (Actually, I hate when people harp on adverbs, because those aren't the problem. The problem is really the verbs themselves!)

For adjectives, they're just so easy to overdo. Middle school creative writing classes teach us to be flowery with our writing, and it took me AGES to get out of the habit to write things like, "The melodious songbird sat on the aging, brown tree branch that hung with green roping vines and BLAH BLAH BLAH." Your eyes are glazing over already, right? I read sentences like that and just want to yell, "A BIRD WAS ON A BRANCH. I GET IT."

Adjectives just weigh down your sentences, and usually, they're not necessary. If you say grass, people know it's green. If you say sky, people know it's blue. If you want to say it's a midnight blue so deep it seemed the stars pinned it in place, then it must reflect something about your character. (Romance on the brain, maybe?) There's a rule of thumb that you should only describe what the reader won't already assume.

Finally, the reason people say to use "said" all the time is that the brain ignores it. When you start using creative little ways to avoid it, the reader sees that word, and it can pull you out of the story. I wouldn't worry too much about changing the word said unless it's really, really necessary. A lot of times, your dialogue is going to get it across anyway. Like, if someone says, "Get your ass out here!" no one is going to assume that's being whispered.

I hope this helps! Good luck!

This is solid advice. If I've learned anything, it's that writing isn't so much about using a lot of words, using flowery words, being clever with words... it's about using just the right words. And that can be much, much harder than doing any of the above.

In John Gardner's "On Becoming A Novelist" (one of the better books on writing out there, IMO), he talks about the "vivid, continuous dream". Pretty self-explanatory -- basically, you're trying to cultivate an image in the reader's mind that persists, like a movie. Weak descriptions (he walked softly) or redundant dialogue tags ("Well, I don't know about that," he retorted) can actually pull a reader out of the place you've transported them, because they come across as too "tell-y" and the reader is reminded, even if just for a moment, that they're being told something with words, and it's not actually real. That moment is all it takes to pull the reader out of the story. If this happens often, it can be jarring, and just downright annoying.

 

[NicolaD]

When you have more than two people in a conversation, dialogue tags are your friend. Also it is good to have a tag or some sort of description now and again in a long conversation, just so the reader can keep track of who is saying what.

Great advice from the others on adverbs and adjectives. Use when necessary and keep them strong.

 

[rwm4768]

Too many adjectives makes each image less effective. Adverbs often substitute for stronger verbs.

As to dialogue tags, I think the very occasional different tag is okay. For example, when I have some form of "say" in the dialogue, I'll use something like "replied" as the dialogue tag. However, this doesn't happen very often.

Now for a fun passage that breaks all these rules.

"Oh my God!" he ejaculated vociferously and smilingly, looking down exasperatedly at the wonderfully lush, brilliantly green,pleasantly wavy, achingly short grass beneath a dazzlingly clear, spectacularly moonless, evilly dark, superbly star-speckled nighttime sky, which happily filled him with supremely divine, laughingly ridiculous, truly spectacular, tremendously amazing joy.


That sentence was a lot of work to write.

And, yes, I know it makes no sense.

 

[frankiebrown]

"I notice that you use plain, simple language, short words and brief sentences. That is the way to write English - it is the modern way and the best way. Stick to it; don't let fluff and flowers and verbosity creep in. When you catch an adjective, kill it. No, I don't mean utterly, but kill most of them - then the rest will be valuable. They weaken when they are close together. They give strength when they are wide apart. An adjective habit, or a wordy, diffuse, flowery habit, once fastened upon a person, is as hard to get rid of as any other vice."
- Mark Twain, in a letter to D. W. Bowser, 20 March 1880

 

[Susan Coffin]

"Oh my God!" he ejaculated vociferously and smilingly, looking down exasperatedly at the wonderfully lush, brilliantly green,pleasantly wavy, achingly short grass beneath a dazzlingly clear, spectacularly moonless, evilly dark, superbly star-speckled nighttime sky, which happily filled him with supremely divine, laughingly ridiculous, truly spectacular, tremendously amazing joy.

Oh my goodness, what a FINE sentence.

 

[Fallen]

Celti, I like to help out anyone here, Christ knows they help me out, but you've asked this exact question before and had very useful replies in there:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230717

Perhaps if you want to ask any new members if they want to add to the discussion, you could bump the old thread, for now I hope you don't mind if I ask a mod to merge this one? It might save a lot of needless repetition.

 

[seun]

I must be missing something. Why would you ask the same question less than a year after asking it the first time?

 

[BethS]

Think of these things as salt

Too much makes a dish inedible

Too little makes i bland

Like Goldilocks and her porridge, there is a 'just right'

This.

 

[BethS]

That is so funny. I once was helping an aspiring writer who had written almost that exact sentence, except iirc, the songbird also had beady eyes. .

I would've kept that.

 

[celticroots]

Celti, I like to help out anyone here, Christ knows they help me out, but you've asked this exact question before and had very useful replies in there:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230717

Perhaps if you want to ask any new members if they want to add to the discussion, you could bump the old thread, for now I hope you don't mind if I ask a mod to merge this one? It might save a lot of needless repetition.

Oops. o_o I am sorry I asked the same question again. It's fine with me if you ask a mod to merge this one. And new members are welcome to add to the discussion if they want.

 

[WriteMinded]

Who says these things? WHO? I want to run them through with a pointed thesaurus or something.

I mean, I'm so tired of these people who make the rules. I want to find them out and string them up.

I learned them all here. But don't get out your pointed thesaurus because they are against the rules. Yes. That's right. I read it right here on AW.

 

[WriteMinded]

"Oh my God!" he ejaculated vociferously and smilingly, looking down exasperatedly at the wonderfully lush, brilliantly green,pleasantly wavy, achingly short grass beneath a dazzlingly clear, spectacularly moonless, evilly dark, superbly star-speckled nighttime sky, which happily filled him with supremely divine, laughingly ridiculous, truly spectacular, tremendously amazing joy.
And, yes, I know it makes no sense.

Cool. Mind if I plagiarize?

 

[rwm4768]

Cool. Mind if I plagiarize?

Sure. Go ahead.

 

[Graphite]

That sentence was a lot of work to write.

You mean you didn't nick that from a Peter Straub novel?

 

[rwm4768]

You mean you didn't nick that from a Peter Straub novel?

No, I didn't. Is that how he writes?

 

[Graphite]

Lol, yeah pretty much. In the climax of Ghost Story, a great novel even with the overuse of adverbs, we get this gem "Shockingly near, a man explosively sneezed." That's the climax. Seriously.

 

[Overwined]

The only thing I want to add to this conversation is that not only are adverbs a crutch, as others have explained, but because they mostly all end in "-ly" they sound samey and repetitive.

 

[Torgo]

Why are adjectives and adverbs not considered to be a good thing in writing?

Because the world is full of broad, oversimplified, actively unhelpful advice offered blithely to aspiring authors with no context or qualification. As a result, the world is also full of people tying themselves in knots to avoid adverbs, adjectives, 'telling', certain forms of punctuation, the progressive, the passive, and God knows how many other parts of speech and basic grammar. I fully expect to log on here one day and find someone worrying about their overuse of the letter 'f', because they heard from some goon that agents don't like it.

 

[Jamesaritchie]

Who says these things? WHO? I want to run them through with a pointed thesaurus or something.

I mean, I'm so tired of these people who make the rules. I want to find them out and string them up.

For most rules, you'd have to sting up the majority of readers. Such rules are made based on what readers buy most, and complain about least.

Not that readers won't buy such writing, if story and character are good enough, but they still complain, and rightly so.