Is "traditional" publishing an offensive term?

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Chiquita Banana

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I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here - and I don't particularly use this term either. Just curious. Seems to me that trade publishing is the traditional way (at least for the last century or two) so it's pretty accurate, no?

I'm just wondering why some folks have a problem with it. It's nothing like people who equate "self publishing" with "vanity press". I've read that one too many times recently.*

*I'm laying the groundwork for a massive marketing blitz (or so I hope) seeking and finding ridiculous amounts of review blogs, reading the policies, seeing "no self-published vanity projects".
 

robertbevan

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i'm sorry. i'm not judging you. i don't have a horse in this race. it's a bit of a touchy subject around here though.
 

thothguard51

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Define traditional, and to who.

Traditional publishing in the U.S?
Traditional publishing in Britain?
Traditional publishing in the E.U?
Traditional publishing in South America?
Traditional publishing for Hindu, Muslim, Christian, or Aliens...

Define Traditional first and then we can talk...
 

Amadan

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To be perfectly honest, I understand why Ye Proprietors are so insistent on trade publishing and not traditional publishing, but I think it's a lost cause, kind of like the popular usage of terms like "hacking" and "centrifugal force." Purists can argue for the correct definition all they like, but when everyone else in the world is using a more popular definition, the popular definition wins.

That said, the reason AW is trying to hold the line is because "traditional" publishing has traditionally been used by self-publishing evangelists to preach the Good Word of the coming death of said publishing industry and that's why you should all buy their Guide To Getting Rich As an Indie Publisher for just $11.99. :chaching:
 

shadowwalker

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"Traditional" is a term that's been coined by certain self-publishing gurus who hold trade publishers in high contempt, and persist in spreading a lot of misinformation, so basically, using it brushes the user as either a pompous ass or wet behind the ears. Personally, I've found that those who persist in using it (even after being politely informed of the correct terminology) are of the pompous ass variety.
 

Deleted member 42

I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here - and I don't particularly use this term either. Just curious. Seems to me that trade publishing is the traditional way (at least for the last century or two) so it's pretty accurate, no?

You might want to cast your eye over the Guidelines for this area; they make the issue clear, I think.

I've got this on my list of things to write up as an FAQ. I'm going to answer this here, briefly, in a couple of ways.

* It it often meant to be offensive; the context in which it is offensive typically includes words and phrases like "hide-bound", "dinosaur" etc. and it implies that the person or persons being referred to are out of step, incompetent, and out of touch with reality, as well as hopelessly old-fashioned.

* The phrase "traditional publishing" first gained considerable notoriety because it was used by the fake publisher PublishAmerica; the immediate connection to PublishAmerica's terminology implies that being referred to as a "traditional publisher" or "traditionally published" is another way of saying "you are a fake author/publisher."

* Traditionally published and traditional publisher are frequently used by zealots on either side of the transom; those who are self-publishing and think any other route is only used by incompetents who want to lose money, or those who are commercially / trade published, who have a stick up their butts and think that all self-published books are inferior. Both are false.

* It is, at the level of literal interpretation, silly. Publishing encompasses roughly 3000 years of traditions.

Publishing, that is the organized reproduction and distribution of written texts, goes back at least to the creation of the various Sumerian tablets, whether they were containing Gilgamesh, or accounting records. There were professionals engaged in creating copies of texts, mass producing them, and distributing them. This kind of organized, skilled, and very technologically astute publication continued, right through, from clay tablets, to papyrus scrolls, to paper (in Asia), to vellum/parchment, and then to the creation of the codex book, that is a bound roughly rectangular collection of texts/images, divided into fascilcles and pages c. 100 C.E., first on vellum/parchment, and then, on paper, and then, on paper mechanically printed using "cold type" à la Gutenberg, to various innovations in printing during the 19th and 20th centuries, none of which are really that big, to the creation of digital books in c. 1988/89. Traditionally publishing doesn't mean anything. What tradition?

* The phrases "traditional publisher," and "traditionally published" consequently identify the user as an amateur, someone who is not cognizant of what it means to be published, how books are made, how they distributed, and how they are sold or what it is publishers do.

"Traditional publisher" doesn't really tell you anything about the publisher, in terms of the way books (printed or digital) are made and sold. Academic publishing (textbooks etc. sold primarily to distributors and bookstores who sell to schools and universities ) is not the same as consumer or commercial or trade publishing (books sold by publishers primarily to" the trade" that is, bookstores, wholesalers or distributors). Trade publishing/consumer/commercial publishing isn't the same as scholarly publishing (books sold primarily to libraries at academic institutions, scholars, and graduate students, usually with small print runs, and very high prices, with no advances or royalties, most of the time) etc.

When I've self-published, I've been proud to say I self-published. When I've been published by small independent publishers who may not have the best distribution but really know their markets, I've been proud to be independently published. When my scholarship is published, I grit my teeth and wait . . . for however many years it takes for the book to be available. When I've been commercially/trade/consumer published, I've been happy about the advance and the passive income. It's all publishing, of one sort or another, but they all are very different. Traditional is just a catch-all piece of jargon, that is either not well-meant, or suggests ignorance.

I favor being clear about how I use language; I'd think most writers would.
 
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Chiquita Banana

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robertbevan - thanks. No worries. Seems odd to me that people find it offensive and I just thought it would be interesting to find out why.

thothguard51 - Well... the US and the UK, I suppose, but only because I can't say for certain how the industry works in the EU and South America, or with religious publishers. What I mean is this scenario: an author writes a book, it gets accepted. He/she gets an advance (maybe). Then the MS goes through a series of different types of edits, promotional copy is written, the cover is created [[[Lord, is this really necessary?]]] the book goes to print, the publisher starts marketing the book (maybe). Then the book goes on sale and the marketing intensifies (maybe).
 

Chiquita Banana

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Ah, thanks for the answers Amadan, Shadowwalker and Medievalist. I totally get it now. Makes sense. :)


Medievalist: did you type that whole thing just now? You must be quite a typist! Great idea to put it up as a FAQ.
 

Deleted member 42

Modern English too. I'm impressed. Usually we get some Sumerian in there. Or Visigoth.

Is there Visigoth writing?

Yes, though not a lot of it. Some Bible texts, and names and short bits. More than we have of other related languages, less than, say, Old French or Old Irish.

It's totally bizarre too; see Gothic Language.

:D
 

calieber

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Isn't the notion of the writer, publisher, and bookseller typically being different people a relatively recent one, Victorian era or so? If so, "traditional" is of dubious accuracy at best.
 

calieber

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Yes, though not a lot of it. Some Bible texts, and names and short bits. More than we have of other related languages, less than, say, Old French or Old Irish.

It's totally bizarre too; see Gothic Language.

I just designed a tattoo I want to get, using the Gothic alphabet.
 

Deleted member 42

Isn't the notion of the writer, publisher, and bookseller typically being different people a relatively recent one, Victorian era or so? If so, "traditional" is of dubious accuracy at best.

Sort of, but there were lots of variations. There were assembly-line sorts of medieval manuscripts in the late 1400-1600s.

You could look at sample books and pick out what you wanted. And there were booksellers who sold similar books, and had workshops providing them exclusively to them. We have tax records for them, and contracts with scribes and artists.

There were also truly what we'd call self-published writers. John Lydgate appears to have been very much interested in creating and selling manuscripts of his works. It looks like the really famous Canterbury Tales manuscript may have been if not commissioned at least overseen by Chaucer in terms of its production. Christine de Pizan very much was involved in the production of her works as finished and beautifully made manuscripts, right down to picking the illuminators.

By the time of the printing press being common, you had printers like Samuel Richardson who allowed certain booksellers to sell his books, as well as letting people buy them directly from him. And there were businesses that specialized in binding unbound folios, too, so you you could get your fancy-schmancy leather bound book, or you "cheap" buckram . . .
 
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Laer Carroll

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I switched over to "trade publishing" as soon as I realized it's alternative was inaccurate. But most of the posts I've seen over the years who used "traditional publishing" did not strike me as their posters meaning to be insulting. They were just ignorant of the correct terminology.

I suggest many of you are being overly sensitive. Just politely correct the offenders and go on to more important matters - such as working on your books.
 

Deleted member 42

Isn't the notion of the writer, publisher, and bookseller typically being different people a relatively recent one, Victorian era or so? If so, "traditional" is of dubious accuracy at best.

It occurred to me after the fact that I should note that copyright is very much the right to copy, that is to print and distribute a work.

And it's an old problem. The earliest editions of Shakespeare's individual plays, and his Sonnets, were "bootleg."

A printer got access, probably for money, to an actor's prompt copy of a play, or two actors, even, and illegally without permission from Shakespeare or the theater that "owned" the plays, printed them and sold them.

The crown got involved, not so much because of concerns about artists being cheated, but because often such works weren't licensed (the crown got no money) or were thins that possibly the crown would rather weren't printed.

I'm skipping about 280 years of history here, so be warned.
 

Williebee

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I suggest many of you are being overly sensitive. Just politely correct the offenders and go on to more important matters - such as working on your books.

It's pretty easy to forgive the "overly sensitive" responses, once you look at how the term has been used by the morally bankrupt to use and abuse beginning and uninformed writers (see any of the neverending PublishAmerica threads.)
 

Stacia Kane

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I suggest many of you are being overly sensitive. Just politely correct the offenders and go on to more important matters - such as working on your books.


patronizing2.jpg






You know, it's a good thing that so many of us here waste time on unimportant matters, like helping others, because if we all followed your advice there wouldn't be much of a forum here, would there?

But next time you have a question, I'll remember that you think I should be doing important things like working on my books, instead of helping you, and will behave accordingly.
 

MacAllister

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I suggest many of you are being overly sensitive. Just politely correct the offenders and go on to more important matters - such as working on your books.

You know, I still remember this exchange where you WERE politely corrected, simply and without a lot of handwaving -- what was that, a month ago? Two? Quite the well-traveled sage, there, aren't ya, that you're going to dispense advice from on high.

If you try really hard, I bet you can sound like an even bigger doofus.

Go for it.

We'll just stand off to one side, hold your beer, and watch, m'kay?
 
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