Derail about queries

[ancon]

this is probably not going to go over well here. they have their query guidelines, but, what i would suggest may help (may not), is getting in front of their eyes what YOU want them to read (whether it is within and following etc their guidelines or not). they have their guidelines, you make your own for submitting queries. don't crawl into their in-box with all the others. try to run through their walls. may not work, of course. good luck!

 

[Toothpaste]

Ancon - putting metaphors aside, what do you actually suggest the OP do?

I can say that I did actually push the boundaries myself when I queried, but it was hardly revolutionary. They were asking for the first three chapters (this was in the UK), and I had a prologue that I thought was necessary to include to demonstrate my humour and ability to write dialogue right from the beginning. But I still felt the actual first three chapters of my book were important to send, not just "prologue, chapter 1 and chapter 2". So I turned "prologue" into chapter 1. Merged chapters 1 and 2. And sent chapter 3 as 3. No one took any issue with it and once I had an agent and a deal, I changed things back.

So yeah, you can absolutely push at boundaries, but be very very careful when you do so. You could risk alienating people. It's better to push within the boundaries than to just blow right past them (or metaphorically run through walls). But if say the OP wants to include one found document at the end of the five pages, I bet that wouldn't be a big deal. Even if that's not necessarily where the document would be in the actual novel.

 

[Aggy B.]

this is probably not going to go over well here. they have their query guidelines, but, what i would suggest may help (may not), is getting in front of their eyes what YOU want them to read (whether it is within and following etc their guidelines or not). they have their guidelines, you make your own for submitting queries. don't crawl into their in-box with all the others. try to run through their walls. may not work, of course. good luck!

Please stop with this. It's really unhelpful.

Akin to telling someone to break the interview rules by showing up naked or in a clown costume because that way the employer will remember you.

 

[ancon]

the clown, naked comparison is way off from what i'm saying. i'm saying think and do things out of the box a little bit. in fact, throw the box away now and then and see how it goes. those guidelines, etc, aren't rules etched into stone. my method has worked for me. it certainly may not work for others.

toothpaste--i try to put in front of the reader the moving, emotional strength of my story. why they should read it. and i try different ways to do that. when i go fishing, i don't just use the same lure or bait all the time. sometimes i fish from the bank, sometimes i wade, sometimes in a canoe, boat, etc. fish top-water lures or deep diving plugs, etc. i don't know what exactly the heck a fish is looking for at any one moment. i keep many lines in the water and throw them everything in my tackle box if i need to until the rod tip bends and that line gets tight.

 

[mccardey]

this is probably not going to go over well here. they have their query guidelines, but, what i would suggest may help (may not), is getting in front of their eyes what YOU want them to read (whether it is within and following etc their guidelines or not). they have their guidelines, you make your own for submitting queries. don't crawl into their in-box with all the others. try to run through their walls. may not work, of course. good luck!

Oh for goodness sake, ancon! You gave us all the benefit of this kind of thinking regarding synopsis guidelines and it turned out you'd done it with one book ten years ago. That thread was closed because industry professionals were telling you publishing has changed and you wouldn't listen. And you probably won't listen now, but I'll say it anyway.

This is very bad advice to sling around. How about you stop slinging it around?

ETA: I see you've deleted the second part of your comment. That's a good start. But honestly, listen to people like Old Hack who know more than you do.

 

[ancon]

i'm going to ignore the above. sorry.

but anyway, one thing that may help when querying is think about the books you actually pick up in a bookstore. you're surrounded by thousands of books. you walk and look at hundreds of titles. but you only pick up a few (an old salesman told me once that a person will tell you what they're looking for, but what they touch is what they really want...and you try to sell them that) to check out more closely. why did you choose that book? something in the cover art must have spoken to you. what did it say? it moved you. it along with the title moved you to pick up the book, out of thousands. and what about the cover made you want to read the back, and then read the first page or two. that's the challenge with a query letter. it's a big one. getting all of those things in a brief letter. moving the reader. good luck!

 

[ancon]

well, not trying to be snippy, but some of these same agents and editors etc, routinely don't follow through with what they say they are going to do. they break the 'guidelines' and things they set up. i have had a very top agent say if i gave him an exclusive, he would get back to me in two weeks. that was two years ago. never heard from him again. i have submitted to an agent who said he would get back to me in a month...that was a year ago. never heard back. another agent, who i sent a note to after four months wondering if he'd read my mss, and he sent back this note, 'don't you think i would have gotten back to you by now if i was interested.' i have had a screenplay left on a plane by an agent in the seat pocket beside the puke bag...i could go on and on and on and on and on. this thing where we writers need to walk this tightrope with a smile on our face or we won't be treated well or will be ignored is silly. to me. it is all about the material. the words. the story. that story finding the right desk to land on, on the right day. there are no rules. that said, i would not recommend tying balloons to your mss, etc. focus on the words. be respectful but know the environment you are in. you have entered a jungle. some won't do what they say they will, etc. get to know people before you count on them and expect them to do what they say they will. other than that, it is a lot of fun!

 

[lizmonster]

well, not trying to be snippy, but some of these same agents and editors etc, routinely don't follow through with what they say they are going to do. they break the 'guidelines' and things they set up.

You're right. Some agents and editors are unprofessional. As in any business, publishing has its share of *******s.

Those are the ones you don't want to work with.

Tossing query guidelines out the window is the wrong way to handle the problem.

 

[mccardey]

i'm going to ignore the above. sorry.

Well, let us know how it works out for you.

 

[ancon]

things are working out so far. thanks.

i'll say this and then step out of here...i think breaking query guidelines sometimes makes for a much better query. separates you from the pack, and not in a dumb or stupid or outrageous way, etc, but in a compelling way. gets eyes focused on your words. they put down their cup of coffee and lean in to read your pitch. if they do that, you got 'em hooked already.

 

[mccardey]

things are working out so far. thanks.

Well, okay - if you're sure...

i have had a very top agent say if i gave him an exclusive, he would get back to me in two weeks. that was two years ago. never heard from him again. i have submitted to an agent who said he would get back to me in a month...that was a year ago. never heard back. another agent, who i sent a note to after four months wondering if he'd read my mss, and he sent back this note, 'don't you think i would have gotten back to you by now if i was interested.' i have had a screenplay left on a plane by an agent in the seat pocket beside the puke bag...i could go on and on and on and on and on.

I'm sorry to hear that. Though - it might have been the guideline thing. I know your earlier book did very well for you, ancon. It's just that times have changed. A lot.

OP - two rejections in is a great time to start checking up on your query. I agree with the general advice here - hang around Query Letter Hell for a bit, if you're not already, crit some other queries and then, when you have 50 substantive posts you can put yours up and see what the squirrels say. Good luck!

 

[Sage]

things are working out so far. thanks.

i'll say this and then step out of here...i think breaking query guidelines sometimes makes for a much better query. separates you from the pack, and not in a dumb or stupid or outrageous way, etc, but in a compelling way. gets eyes focused on your words. they put down their cup of coffee and lean in to read your pitch. if they do that, you got 'em hooked already.

Yes, because nothing compels me to pay more attention than someone who sends me ten chapters when I asked for three or starts me at chapter 10 because they thought it would hook better, only I'm all confused without the groundwork of the novel, or decided not to bother with any kind of pitch so I don't know if the attached pages are even something I'd represent, or sends an unsolicited attachment that I won't open because of virus potential.

Describe one query guideline you'd like to break that you think will compel an agent. You're in here with general advice that breaking guidelines will help you stand out. What's the positive way in which you believe you'll stand out? What's the one that makes the agent sit up and take notice and have to read on, when they would have breezed past your query otherwise. By the way, there are plenty of people ignoring query guidelines in the slushpile, so you're going to have to be specific when giving this advice to break guidelines to stand out. What makes you stand out against those who don't know better, or like you, think submission guidelines don't apply to them?

 

[ancon]

you pulled me back in! i'm still working today. i know how the 'times' are right now. and i have had more than one book published, thank you. i have also written pieces for magazines, etc...and got those gigs through queries. i'm just giving my one little opinion here, that's all.

re the query question from sage, i do things like try not to send a query to a query email. i try to send it to the agent's email. much better success with that. editors state they don't read unsolicited submissions...some of them certainly do. i act like i don't care if you ask for me stuff or not...i am giving you an OPPORTUNITY to consider it. i start off the query with something that grabs you by the neck. i don't put in things that don't matter. it's all about the material. and a little about me. i very, very seldom have gotten a note that i haven't followed guidelines, compared with the notes to submit. a strong query in the way i want to write it is more important to me than following some guidelines that really don't matter to a hill of beans a lot anyway. but yeah, sending ten chapters or pictures of yourself or balloons or having flowers delivered with your 2000 page mss out of the blue is not going to be helpful. that 2000 page mss will probably end up being a fine doorstop or prop up a short table leg.

 

[mccardey]

i have also written pieces for magazines, etc...and got those gigs through queries.

Queries or pitches? Because they're not the same kind of animal, not at all.

 

[ancon]

same to me pretty much.

 

[mccardey]

Queries or pitches? Because they're not the same kind of animal, not at all.

same to me pretty much.

Alright, well they're not the same thing at all. So - that might be where the push-back is coming from on your query advice.

ETA: Let me just clarify that - you said they're the same thing to you pretty much. Without punctuation, your posts are often a bit ambiguous, so if you mean that you are at a stage where you are so well-known and successful that you can pretty much just send a pitch and your book will be picked up, then yes, I guess you'd be right, and pitches and queries are the same to you - pretty much.

But it would still be very bad advice for you to suggest that new writers take the same approach.

 

[ancon]

i'm not well-known or terribly successful at all. i am another struggling writer on this board. we all swim in the same waters. i think the bad punctuation sprouts from pure laziness.

i now keep the same approach i've pretty much always taken with queries--i try to get powerful words in a reader's face where he/she won't ignore them. the rules or guidelines, etc, are just a short fence i may need to climb over to do it.

 

[Aggy B.]

Sending emails directly to an agent instead of to their requested query address is a good way to start getting your stuff bounced directly to the spam folder. So is sending sample pages and saying "If you like this ask for the rest."

These are all things that agents (many of them) say specifically *not* to do as it will put you on the wrong foot not only with them but with the industry in general. Encouraging folks to do these things anyway because it worked for you once or twice is harmful. It's not thinking outside the box, it's doing what you're being told not to and telling everyone else they should do it too because they might find one agent (out of the hundred that decides never to work with you because you refuse to do what they ask) who will be impressed by your attitude.

It's bad and harmful advice and you should stop spreading it around.

 

[Harlequin]

a lot of agents specifically say they delete queries which come to their personal email.

 

[ancon]

keep riding the fences searching for a gate. good luck!

 

[-Riv-]

keep riding the fences searching for a gate. good luck!

Who is riding the fences? Many here have already found the gate--without willfully disregarding agent guidelines.

 

[ancon]

that's great! what works, works. good luck!

 

[mccardey]

that's great! what works, works. good luck!

Unfortunately, what doesn't work derails threads, misinforms new writers and ultimately risks derailing possible acceptances. Ancon, is it possible you've googled advice intended for writers pitching articles (How To Get Your Pitch Noticed often includes track down the editor's email address type suggestions) and misapplied it to writers querying novels? Because pitching an idea for an article is not the same as querying a written, revised and polished novel.

 

[mpack]

i start off the query with something that grabs you by the neck. i don't put in things that don't matter

Is there someone on this forum or in QLH who suggested including all the extraneous boring bits? Because that's never been the advice I give or that I have been given.

 

[Toothpaste]

And after all that I actually still don't know what you do aside from fish and evidently get to the point (in your queries that is). If you are offering advice, ancon, you need to be specific because "breaking the rules" can be as small as my example and as big as following an agent home and knocking on her door and handing her your MS. I get the impression though you aren't doing that but how is a lurker to know what kind of rule breaking you are talking about if, again, it's all advised via metaphor (and simile)?

Can you give a specific example, like I did with my situation, of some kind of rule breaking that was successful for you?