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Another Female MC

Keithy

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Well, here I am again starting another project, and again I (probably) have a female protagonist.

I don't know why, but despite being a man, I gravitate towards female MC's. I've done two teenage girls, even though I have never been nor never will be a teenage girl.

So, is there a good way to have strong (not physically strong) women characters that aren't Mary Sues and aren't men with breasts? And not stereotypes?
 

lizmonster

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:hi: Keithy. This is my favorite question.

Write a person. Have that person be female. You're done!

That sounds like sarcasm, but it's not. If you write a solid, 3D character, you're not going to get it wrong. I understand (sometimes) why non-female people worry about this, but it's been my experience that writers who write women poorly tend to rely on stereotype for ALL their characters. Have your protagonist be a whole person in your head, and she'll be a whole person on the page.

And get some female beta readers. There are sometimes subtleties non-female writers miss, although they tend to be small things. I read an otherwise outstanding (contemporary) novel written by a man in which the female MC walks through an abandoned parking lot in the middle of the night without even thinking about her safety. The character was otherwise excellent, but that was a misstep.

FWIW I write a lot of male characters. When I hear from readers, they're almost always men who tell me they relate strongly to my male characters. Writing outside your own gender can be done. Create people, and you'll be fine.
 

Thomas Vail

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lizmonster already hit it on the head. You write a female character who isn't a Mary Sue the same way you write a male character who isn't a Mary Sue.
 

Maryn

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(Points upward to post #2.) What she said.
 

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lizmonster summed it up nicely.

While women and men have different average performances, interests, inclinations etc. for many things, individuals of all genders fall all over the spectrum. Very, very few people will be "typical" for their gender in all respects. Most of us are mixes of traits that are stereotypically masculine or feminine or somewhere in the middle. IME, guys (in our culture, at least) tend to deny this more, perhaps because the feminine is devalued, so they feel threatened if they discover a stereotypically feminine trait within themselves (I'm guessing)? Even biological traits don't sort as neatly as people are often taught.

The pitfall people often fall into when writing someone not their gender is to worry overmuch about whether or not "a man" or "a woman" would think or do X, Y or Z. I don't care much about fancy clothes, and my favorite shoes are flat with a large toe box and good arch support (not having my feet hurt is important to me) and go well with jeans and tee shirts. I love science and also tend to value logic and analysis over raw feelings when it comes to decision making. I think babies are cute, but my arms don't ache to hold them, and I'm fine that I never had one. These things do not make me a "man with boobs."

The answer is always some men or some women will, even if it's not something everyone of their gender does.

Give your characters a reason for being who they are, for having the interests, values, skills and thought processes they do, and it shouldn't be an issue.
 
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WriteMinded

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Well, here I am again starting another project, and again I (probably) have a female protagonist.

I don't know why, but despite being a man, I gravitate towards female MC's. I've done two teenage girls, even though I have never been nor never will be a teenage girl.

So, is there a good way to have strong (not physically strong) women characters that aren't Mary Sues and aren't men with breasts? And not stereotypes?
You've used two teenage girls as MCs, why not a third? Why not write them all the time?

I am a woman who writes male characters. I never question how to do it, I just do it. Most of my beta readers have been males. Not one has complained about or even mentioned my portrayal of the men in my stories. On the other hand, I just finished a book which starred a female. It was very difficult for me. :Shrug:

Lizmonster and Roxxsmom gave you some great advice.
 

Roxxsmom

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You've used two teenage girls as MCs, why not a third? Why not write them all the time?

I am a woman who writes male characters. I never question how to do it, I just do it. Most of my beta readers have been males. Not one has complained about or even mentioned my portrayal of the men in my stories. On the other hand, I just finished a book which starred a female. It was very difficult for me. :Shrug:

Lizmonster and Roxxsmom gave you some great advice.

The first novel I attempted had a male main pov character. I had critting partners of both genders. The only person who complained about his not feeling like a proper guy was a female reader. She claimed he was overthinking something in a particular scene, "which guys never do."

I disregarded her advice, because this character wasn't simply "a guy," but an individual who had definite reasons for overthinking certain issues the way he did. And my male readers didn't complain about his behavior in that scene at all.

FWIW, I've known plenty of guys who overthink things to death, not to mention I've encountered male overthinkers in novels written by men.
 

Keithy

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:hi: Keithy. This is my favorite question.

And get some female beta readers. There are sometimes subtleties non-female writers miss, although they tend to be small things. I read an otherwise outstanding (contemporary) novel written by a man in which the female MC walks through an abandoned parking lot in the middle of the night without even thinking about her safety. The character was otherwise excellent, but that was a misstep.

Thanks for that. I was thinking about my MC (Shana) in "The Visitor" not worrying about that because she is 2-3 times stronger than humans... but somewhat lacking in the height department and is nervous around boats.

As if I need any more complications, I'm thinking of making this new MC lesbian. But as you say, I need to concentrate on the character first.
 

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lizmonster gets at another issue regarding the writing of male and female characters (or people of different demographics within a society): issues that aren't so much related to personality or abilities as they are to the generalized awareness most of us have about the risks, rewards, privileges, rights and expectations that come with one's gender, race, orientation, age etc. These can vary, even for someone of a given gender, but most of us have a sense for what we think they are, at least.

I don't find a female character who is indifferent to babies or who hates shoes or who loves math or who is an athlete living in the 21st century (or indeed even in earlier times) to be remotely unrealistic. I don't find men who hate sports and love flowers and cry easily to be unrealistic either. And there are plenty of people who choose to do things deemed risky for someone of their demographic. What can make such a character feel "off" is if they are completely unaware of the ways in which they defy norms or expectations or for them to be completely unaware of the dangers some situations may pose to a person of their gender, orientation, race etc. unless there is a good reason for them to be unaware.

Obviously, speculative fiction is different, because the culture created by an author can have different norms. It's part of the writer's job to show these differences, though.
 

The Second Moon

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I don't know why, but despite being a man, I gravitate towards female MC's

I am the same, expect I am a woman and I feel like I can only get attached to my male MCs. That's okay though, as I've learned. Just write what makes you happy.
 

lizmonster

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The first novel I attempted had a male main pov character. I had critting partners of both genders. The only person who complained about his not feeling like a proper guy was a female reader. She claimed he was overthinking something in a particular scene, "which guys never do."

Yeah, I hate this kind of nonsense, but it's preached throughout our whole culture. Some of the most rigidly sexist people I've ever met have been women, sometimes very bright ones. In general, they were a) heterosexual, and b) strongly invested in being "special" to someone, which to them meant "different" (and often "incomprehensible"). I got a lot of pity and condescension from these women.

Thanks for that. I was thinking about my MC (Shana) in "The Visitor" not worrying about that because she is 2-3 times stronger than humans... but somewhat lacking in the height department and is nervous around boats.

As Roxxsmom points out, with spec fic all bets are off. Your Shana sounds like she has concerns that stem from her as an individual, not <insert category here>. I suspect you're probably doing fine.

As if I need any more complications, I'm thinking of making this new MC lesbian. But as you say, I need to concentrate on the character first.

I've written people with different sexualities than mine. I come at it with the belief that attraction is attraction, and the feelings and reactions aren't going to be drastically different from the feelings and reactions I associate with my own sexuality. Humans are humans, and we are so beautifully varied. The only way to mess up a character, really, is to cling to stereotypes so hard they come across as jarring and two-dimensional.
 

Roxxsmom

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I've written people with different sexualities than mine. I come at it with the belief that attraction is attraction, and the feelings and reactions aren't going to be drastically different from the feelings and reactions I associate with my own sexuality. Humans are humans, and we are so beautifully varied. The only way to mess up a character, really, is to cling to stereotypes so hard they come across as jarring and two-dimensional.

I agree with this too. Though I am guessing issues related to social expectations, prejudice, privilege and potential abuse or violence are likely to be different for an LGBTQ person living in our times or in many times and places in history. For instance, in many places a same-sex couple wouldn't feel safe being open with their relationship, and even if they mostly due, they would likely be more tuned in to the potential for disapproval or harassment.

Of course, people would differ in how they deal with that too.

This is probably where having readers with common experiences to one's character could be helpful in determining whether or not a person's outlook and reactions to a given external situation ring true or not.

FWIW, this holds true for people in professions or regions of the country that differ from the writers' too. I can't count the times I've gritted my teeth, or outright laughed, at some portrayal of science or scientists in a book that is clearly written by someone with no academic background or professional experience in science and where neither they nor their editors thought to actually run it by anyone who did. You know, the idea that all scientists are eccentric geniuses who graduated from high school by 14 and never got less than an A in anything in their lives (except maybe in PE class), or that all scientists are unemotional and dispassionate or completely unskilled socially, or completely lacking in common sense or, are possibly so dedicated to getting data they forget about ethics or compassion and so on.

The difference is, scientists aren't generally discriminated against or marginalized by society (even if most people don't completely trust them), so seeing stereotypical or inaccurate representations is more amusing, or maybe a bit exasperating, rather than genuinely hurtful.
 
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Norman Mjadwesch

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My WIP has a female MC, as does my next one (which is just a skeleton ATM but you know, thinking ahead). My earlier books had male MCs. It’s not that big a deal. The MC is what the story requires them to be, and since half of the people in my life are male and the other half female, I have a pretty decent sample size from which to assess personal characteristics / outlooks.

I think lizmonster and Roxxsmom have pretty well covered the major points.
 

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Hi, I just want to add a thought. You (the OP) said you want to avoid "men with breasts," which I think is a valid issue here even though I agree with lizmonster overall. So one thing you might do is think of women you know who are strong women. They might be very different people, with different styles and values. Think about how each one is strong, about why you see them as strong. What do they do? How do they react to things? What are some memories of them you have that show this? And what makes them still women vs. "men with breasts"? The answers should give you some ideas for your character.
 

David Odle

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Interesting topic. I'm sitting here trying to recollect some recent books I've read where genders were blatantly inauthentic stereotypes. And honestly, I don't notice it that often.
Only one book comes to mind (which I won't mention here for fear of a beating, but I reviewed it on my blog if you're interested) and in that one, it was the male characters who were poorly-written (every male character exactly the same - no variation). Actually, the whole damn thing was poorly-written, but reflecting on it, character development was a big thing.
Point being, I'm not sure it's something to worry about too much.

I agree that it's about writing a character, a person, versus focusing too much on gender. My current WIP (Novel X) stars a female lead and I'm not finding a need to change how I develop her character versus how I'd develop any other character, though I'll admit I used to be horrible at stereotyping. For Novel X, I find the biggest struggle is writing her perceptions and relationships with men (not sex, just general interaction). Specifically, what's going through her head sometimes. Hopefully I'm not getting in the way too much.

Good luck with this and great topic. The responses here have taught me a great deal.
 

Keithy

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OK, I've been putting together a character profile for my MC. Definitely lesbian, she had a child 4-5 years ago with her girlfriend, then something traumatic happened and they broke up. She's a vice squad detective.

Yeah, I can do this.

I think the wife is going to ask why so many women though.
 

lizmonster

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And what makes them still women vs. "men with breasts"?

Not meaning to pick on you, Cluebird, but I'd like to respectfully request we use a different phrase for this phenomenon. I understand the shorthand it's intended to represent, but something like "women written as stereotypical men" is more specific and not cis-centric.

It also, to my mind, gets to the heart of the issue, which is stereotyping. I believe we, as writers, are responsible for understanding (as much as we can) where and why we tend to default to stereotypes in our work. They're not always wrong (they exist for a reason, after all!), but when we use them we should use them with our eyes wide open.
 

lizmonster

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OK, I've been putting together a character profile for my MC. Definitely lesbian, she had a child 4-5 years ago with her girlfriend, then something traumatic happened and they broke up. She's a vice squad detective.

Yeah, I can do this.

I think the wife is going to ask why so many women though.

You could tell her they introduced themselves that way, and it seemed rude to argue. :)
 

angeliz2k

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lizmonster gets at another issue regarding the writing of male and female characters (or people of different demographics within a society): issues that aren't so much related to personality or abilities as they are to the generalized awareness most of us have about the risks, rewards, privileges, rights and expectations that come with one's gender, race, orientation, age etc. These can vary, even for someone of a given gender, but most of us have a sense for what we think they are, at least.

I don't find a female character who is indifferent to babies or who hates shoes or who loves math or who is an athlete living in the 21st century (or indeed even in earlier times) to be remotely unrealistic. I don't find men who hate sports and love flowers and cry easily to be unrealistic either. And there are plenty of people who choose to do things deemed risky for someone of their demographic. What can make such a character feel "off" is if they are completely unaware of the ways in which they defy norms or expectations or for them to be completely unaware of the dangers some situations may pose to a person of their gender, orientation, race etc. unless there is a good reason for them to be unaware.

Obviously, speculative fiction is different, because the culture created by an author can have different norms. It's part of the writer's job to show these differences, though.

Roxxsmom, this is an EXCELLENT point, and it really nails something I haven't been able to express so succinctly before. People are individuals, but they interact with society, which will always have expectations, and people are aware of these expectations. This is so incredibly important in historical contexts, and it's what a lot of writers get wrong, or at least not-quite-right: the interplay between what a character wants to do/be, how society views that wish, and how society's views then influence/change the character's own desires and goals. That might be what's so irritating about the rather cliche character of the young woman in a historical context who expresses very 21st-century desires to be liberated and who doesn't seem to know (or at least to care!) what society thinks, and who isn't in any way affected by what society is telling her is and isn't correct. She's completely impervious to everything going on around her! Which is not entirely realistic and makes her seem flat. She needs to interact with these things, not be separate from them. The same can be said of all kind of 21st-century viewpoints copied and pasted into historical contexts.
 

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Not meaning to pick on you, Cluebird, but I'd like to respectfully request we use a different phrase for this phenomenon. I understand the shorthand it's intended to represent, but something like "women written as stereotypical men" is more specific and not cis-centric.

It also, to my mind, gets to the heart of the issue, which is stereotyping. I believe we, as writers, are responsible for understanding (as much as we can) where and why we tend to default to stereotypes in our work. They're not always wrong (they exist for a reason, after all!), but when we use them we should use them with our eyes wide open.

No problem. I was using the expression the OP used. Though I'd argue that his expression isn't quite the same as a woman written as a stereotypical man. I'd say it's possible to write a male character and call it a woman without the character being a stereotypical male. But I'm not really arguing.
 

Keithy

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Not meaning to pick on you, Cluebird, but I'd like to respectfully request we use a different phrase for this phenomenon. I understand the shorthand it's intended to represent, but something like "women written as stereotypical men" is more specific and not cis-centric.

It also, to my mind, gets to the heart of the issue, which is stereotyping. I believe we, as writers, are responsible for understanding (as much as we can) where and why we tend to default to stereotypes in our work. They're not always wrong (they exist for a reason, after all!), but when we use them we should use them with our eyes wide open.

Hmm, it's just occurred to me that some men have breasts too.

OK, let's talk about something else. (Men in tights?)
 
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neandermagnon

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Usually the people who do the whole "this character doesn't act/think/whatever like a (add gender here)" tend to be the ones that believe that gender stereotypes are true. What they mean is "your character doesn't act the way I think people of that gender act". Reality is scientists are struggling to find any consistent differences between men and women's brains/minds/psychology etc - see the article that Roxxsmom posted upthread about the brain differences (or lack thereof). So you can safely give your character whatever personality traits you want and it won't be wrong for their gender.

A similar thing to this would be the way some people react to the characters in my stories set 40,000 years ago. I base my fiction on an up-to-date interpretation of the fossil record and other evidence. This includes evidence that people from this time period (and not just Homo sapiens - Homo neanderthalensis too) had complex languages and were just as clever as modern people (Neandertals may have been a tad less creative and innovative than Homo sapiens, ancient and modern, but the difference, if any, was small and there is archaeological evidence of Neandertal art now, so the view that Neandertals weren't as creative or capable of symbolic thought is rapidly becoming outdated). But when I write characters from this time period that are articulate and intelligent, some people don't find them believable because they're stuck in this view that humans from that long ago couldn't possibly be clever or able to speak much. That doesn't make those people right, though.

End of the day, you can't pander to people who want you to write stuff that doesn't contradict their inaccurate beliefs. Those people aren't your target audience.

Examples of bestselling male writers that IMO have done a good job of writing female main characters: 1. Stephen King - Dolores Claiborne. 2. Andy Weir - Artemis. I'm sure there are many others. And I'm sure some people will find issue with these characters, but I don't and I'm female. There's nothing in either of those books that clashes with my experience of being female.

The points made earlier in the thread about dealing with sexism and societies expectations are valid. A man writing a female character in a contemporary setting (for example) may be unaware of sexist attitudes, expectations etc that women have to deal with. It's a good idea to research this aspect of writing a character and get feedback from people who've experienced that kind of thing. Same goes for characters who have to deal with any kind of bigotry or stereotypes, not just gender related ones.
 
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I do have a work that has some prominent female characters, and for the most part, I wrote them the way that I wrote the male characters. At least I think that I did. But the two main female characters have a taste for pretty clothes. Like this:
Ilmuth played with a GPS device. "It does both English and metric," she said about it. After reading off the train's speed, she said "Thanks, Kalna, for accepting that purchase."
Kalna responded "No problem. You have great taste."
"I thought about getting a big pile of fancy dresses and designer jeans. Naaah, only kidding. Designer jeans are just plain silly. I checked them out once, and they didn't seem very different from ordinary jeans."
"That would have blown our budget for sure," said Kalna, laughing.
 

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I had the same doubts about writing a male MC when I've only written female ones until I came to the same conclusion as lizmonster. Don't let the doubts hold you back :).