Writing Clans/Family groups(Please Help)

[DottieLK]

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this)

I'm working on a novel, mostly for practice and to see my oc's story come to life (This is fantasy).

Eventually the main characters are going to encounter a tribe of native people and stay with them. These people are supposed to be less modern, and more resourceful. I've always had a problem with describing things in a "Wrong/Confusing way"(according to my mom). I'm afraid that describing their ways of life, especially from the POV of a sheltered kid will make it seem like I am looking down on them.

This is a world with magic, which is considered a natural resource and these people will basically use it to help them hunt, gather, purify water, etc. Instead of making machines and giant buildings like the larger part of the population. This will be knew to the main characters since they grew up in a very controlled environment.

I suppose I'm mostly afraid of offending people by saying the wrong things. How am I supposed to avoid this? Especially without erasing their culture?

 

[SWest]

...saying the wrong things. How am I supposed to avoid this? Especially without erasing their culture?

Welcome to AW!

The short answer to your question is: by not using a culture you don't 100% know in your stories. Just don't do it.

I promise you: the majority of people who hold the ambition to base a story tribe on NA peoples do not have sufficient interest to immerse themselves in a single NA culture well enough for long enough (years) to avoid misappropriation and misuse. Native cultures are complex...in comparison to dominant white culture, but also in comparison between the various language groups across the continent.

*******************

Why do the isolated people in your story need to be NA? Won't isolation and use of Magic be exotic enough for your MC and readers? There are plenty of groups of non-Native people living in isolation in the U.S. (off-grid homesteaders, forex).

Heck, there are households on suburban streets who isolate from their neighbors and wider communities for various reasons. Why wouldn't use of Magic to sustain daily life alone be a good reason to practice separation from modern tech-involved lifestyles?

The easiest and best way to avoid writing a damaging story is to not do it.

 

[dickson]

Welcome to AW!

This example may be a bit off-track, but some years ago a friend published a couple of novels about pre-homo sapiens hominids. She modeled their society and behavior on hyenas. Her pen name is Debra Austin; the novels are Daughter of Kura and Mother of Asili.

 

[DottieLK]

The easiest and best way to avoid writing a damaging story is to not do it.

I see exactly what you mean with this, and thank you for taking the time to respond! but I still definitely still want to have unique cultures in my story. (They will not be real cultures, and at the most inspired by some), the tribe they run into aren't meant to really be isolated, just not considered 'modern'. The reason

I've always pushed forward for more diversity in my art, so I don't want to erase the different cultures the MCs are supposed to meet.

 

[SWest]

I see exactly what you mean with this, and thank you for taking the time to respond! but I still definitely still want to have unique cultures in my story. (They will not be real cultures, and at the most inspired by some), the tribe they run into aren't meant to really be isolated, just not considered 'modern'. The reason

I've always pushed forward for more diversity in my art, so I don't want to erase the different cultures the MCs are supposed to meet.

Mishandling someone's culture never improves their social visibility. You can certainly have a diverse cast of characters without damaging any one character's culture on-page. If your sole reason to use a Native culture is to introduce uniqueness and exoticism, you will end up both erasing and insulting the peoples you are using for inspiration.

NA cultures are modern - they still exist and function. So what exactly are the NA cultural features that are inspiring your primitive group? What do your primitive people look like? How do they dress? How do they speak? How do they navigate sexual politics? How do they raise children? Are your primitive characters fullblown individuals, or stereotypes? Why aren't you basing your primitive people on actual primitives (Neanderthals, or Cro-Magnons forex)?

Your approach to diversity is problematic - no NA people are waiting for you to provide them with representation in your writings. Instead of pumping the brakes, you should be taking Mom's advice and pulling over for a u-turn.

 

[CWNitz]

The easiest way to add tribes to your story without offending anyone is to draw on your own heritage. Everywhere in the world, there have been tribes at some point in history. If you're of European descent, you can study prehistoric European tribes to try to make the portrayal as realistic as possible.

Keep in mind that research keeps evolving and up-to-date sources will be more realistic and less biased. Also, geography impacts people's behavior, so try to take that into account: if you change something about the environment, you need to change how people behave (and, to some extent, look).

 

[DottieLK]

Mishandling someone's culture never improves their social visibility. You can certainly have a diverse cast of characters without damaging any one character's culture on-page. If your sole reason to use a Native culture is to introduce uniqueness and exoticism, you will end up both erasing and insulting the peoples you are using for inspiration.

I understand that writing other cultures is a serious and hard topic, but still as I said this won't be any real culture. This will be a culture I'm creating, and they are not considered primitive!

Though you probably weren't asking seriously, I'll answer your questions.

At first the cultures it was inspired by were (General)Indian and Puerto Rican, but I considered looking at some cultures closer to home for ideas too.

Their looks- Generally slender and muscular, curly hair and darker olive skin tones.

The clothes they wear tend to be leather and silk clothes they've made, or basic shirts and pants traded for at nearby villages.

They speak the same way the other people of the continent do, speaking primarily the elves mother tongue, if not some other languages that developed in that region.

Sexual Politics is not a topic I have really thought about, but I suppose it would be more of a personal matter type of thing.

Children are raised by the community, they have their biological family and then the other families they grew up around.

and again, these people aren't considered primitive, they just don't use more modern ways of life like many others on the continent do, it's not very uncommon there.

Lastly, just to throw this in, my mom has never told me to stop or turn around in my work.

 

[Brigid Barry]

I think it would be beneficial if you would stop arguing to try to frame the question to get a different answer. If you are basing your people off a real culture, you are claiming aspects of things that don't belong to you to produce something else. To be super basic about it: if I mix Coke and Pepsi together I didn't "create" anything, I just took things that didn't belong to me and tried to make them mine. "But it's not Coke!" I could cry as I got sued into oblivion. Except you'd be doing it with people.

I cannot +1 SWest enough to just NOT draw on other cultures that you aren't a part of. It will be problematic. See the Dothraki in GoT who were completely made up (along with whatever fake cultures were made up for Daneris or whatever her name was to be a white savior to) and they are racist and offensive. You're writing fantasy. I can't emphasize this enough: make it up. Something that gets forgotten is that some cultures have religion and/or spiritual beliefs very closely intertwined with their way of living (Amish, as an example), and even if you carefully research the culture you probably won't understand the nuance. Someone will be offended. We are all trying to warn you about this and not to do it.

Unless your mom is a member one of the groups you intend to use in your inspiration of a "less modern" "more resourceful" "not primitive" peoples, she isn't really in a position to say it's okay or not. No one is telling you to not write, what we're telling you is don't use real marginalized peoples to create caricatures of their culture to develop your world.

It's fantasy. Make it up.

I love the idea of using animal cultures to develop human(oid) cultures from. There are SO many animal cultures that do what you're describing (lions are pretty notable, the moms don't care if they get THEIR cubs back, as long as they get the right number) that you shouldn't have a hard time finding ones that meet your needs.

Again seconding SWest, there are plenty of people presumably of your culture that have gone off the grid for you to draw inspiration of for not using technology. I have a second world fantasy that doesn't have technology that is largely drawn off the ancient Romans and medieval through modern technologies that don't require electricity.

Skin color varies based on distance from the equator. Leather and fur clothes were basically ALL cultures around the world at one point or another because animal skin is a byproduct of hunting for food. Silk is traded globally from areas that have silkworms (and China no longer has the secret of making silk cloth). If you have purple-eyed giants from the kingdom of Bleepity Bloop who have domesticated six-legged tigers to ride on, no one is going to bat an eye. If you try to base said giants off a specific culture, there will be backlash.

Once again, for the people in the back:

It's FANTASY.
Make it up.​

 

[SWest]

... just not considered 'modern'. ...

...I've always had a problem with describing things in a "Wrong/Confusing way"(according to my mom). ...

Your words.

 

[EVanMoore]

It depends. If you are basing your "Tribe" off any culture that exists right now or in the past (and has living ancestors today) then you need to consult with people from that demographic. Otherwise you are not being culturally sensitive and you risk writing an offensive characature of people.

If your tribe is completely made up and there are no obvious parallels between them and existing cultures (intentional or not) then what you could look into is the website Writing With Color and make sure to avoid stereotypes that could be offensive for writing any person of colour.

Honestly, I'd just steer clear of it. But everyones writing journey is their own Best of luck to you!

 

[Fi Webster]

I think it would be beneficial if you would stop arguing to try to frame the question to get a different answer.

THIS.

You are new to AW, Dottie, so please take this to heart for future threads you're on. I note that you wrote all three of your postings so far within a period of just three hours. When your fellow writers say things like "Don't do X" or "Be careful about Y" in response to a question you pose, I recommend that you slow down... take some deep breaths... and sleep on the thread before you reply.

If you reply at all, other than just to say "Thanks!" You may realize the next day that you've gotten enough useful and varied answers that your next step is to ponder on the issue for a while.

 

[Unimportant]

I understand that writing other cultures is a serious and hard topic, but still as I said this won't be any real culture. This will be a culture I'm creating, and they are not considered primitive!

If you are creating it, totally from scratch, and no reader is ever going to think "Oh, this is based on XXX!" then cooliebars, go for it.

At first the cultures it was inspired by were (General)Indian and Puerto Rican, but I considered looking at some cultures closer to home for ideas too.

Which kind of suggests that you aren't creating it, you're basing it on a real culture -- one that has historically been oppressed, underprivileged, and exploited.

If you are from Puerto Rico, or if your mum is from India, or whatever, and you can write about it from a position of first-hand knowledge and experience, then cooliebars, go for it. If not -- consider the ethics of using that culture for your own personal gain. (And if by Indian you mean Native Americans, who are totally NOT from India, I'd strongly encourage you to reassess your knowledge and terminology of those peoples and cultures. Conversely, if by Indian you mean people in India -- "general" -- I'd strongly encourage you to talk to some people in/from India: north, south, coastal, inland..... holy moley, even in something as simple as spices used in cooking, there is no "general" and you'll practically spark a world war over coconut milk versus yoghurt.)

Basically -- let them write their own stories. Meanwhile, write your own story.

 

[DottieLK]

THIS.

You are new to AW, Dottie, so please take this to heart for future threads you're on. I note that you wrote all three of your postings so far within a period of just three hours. When your fellow writers say things like "Don't do X" or "Be careful about Y" in response to a question you pose, I recommend that you slow down... take some deep breaths... and sleep on the thread before you reply.

If you reply at all, other than just to say "Thanks!" You may realize the next day that you've gotten enough useful and varied answers that your next step is to ponder on the issue for a while.

Alright thanks for the tip, seems like some people thought I was trying to argue too, which I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trying to be rude I have a problem with tone. I really just don't want to seem like I'm going against others peoples cultures or trying to be offensive in my writing.

 

[Fi Webster]

Alright thanks for the tip, seems like some people thought I was trying to argue too, which I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trying to be rude I have a problem with tone.

In my experience, Time improves Tone. That is, waiting a while to process what's been said and to formulate your reply (if any—lots of things don't necessitate a reply) will improve your tone.

I really just don't want to seem like I'm going against others peoples cultures or trying to be offensive in my writing.

Got it. You've already made that clear. I suggest mulling over the excellent responses you've garnered to your question. Best of luck!

 

[mccardey]

In my experience, Time improves Tone.

Seconding this. Time improves everything.

OP, you're a in a tricky area with this question anyway, if you're not of the group you intend to base your characters on. Time will also be something you need for research, and I think targeted research (ie: not just asking a bunch of strangers from many nations who happen to be on a writers board) will help you a lot. You clearly don't want to be clumsy, but I think the issue you're missing is that it's less about what you write, and more about interrogating your right to write basing imaginary peoples whose "difference" is different only to the dominant culture, on actual peoples. You can say - and many do - I have the right to write anything I like and I don't care who gets offended. Which is one way to look at it, but I'm sensing it's not the way you're looking at it because you're better than that When you do care, you want to do no harm - and the place to start is with a healthy knowledge of your own ignorance on the issue and a communication with the people who might help you. The people who could help you most are generally the people you're planning to base your story on.

Education being such a time-drain on the educators, I think the best place to start is by googling "name of group" "offensive terms" for a quick answer before you even begin research, so you don't shoot yourself in the foot. (Down here for instance, using the word "tribe" instead of people, peoples or nation would get you a very big side-eye because it's a settler term.) You'll probably find resources that other groups have already put out about themselves, and using these means you're not demanding time and education, and that you'll get info that's up-to-date and accurate from the pov of the people you're concerned about.

But - and here's the biggie - the more you do read and research from the source, I suspect the less likely you'll be to want to go ahead with your people as you intended. When you have to come up against that, have a quick look and notice that those people are described here by you pretty much in terms of colour, what they wear and how the way they live differs from the dominant culture. As a writer, creating your world, you have the choice to get more deeply into characters than just their difference - of colour, skin, clothes and childraising. (or even magic )

Good luck with it.

ETA: Also, between us, you worried that you are clumsy about expressing yourself. I don't think you are. I think your questions are clear, common and called-for. I'm glad you're asking them.

 

[Clovitide]

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this)

I'm working on a novel, mostly for practice and to see my oc's story come to life (This is fantasy).

Eventually the main characters are going to encounter a tribe of native people and stay with them. The tribe is supposed to be less modern, and more resourceful. I've always had a problem with describing things in a "Wrong/Confusing way"(according to my mom). I'm afraid that describing their ways of life, especially from the POV of a sheltered kid will make it seem like I am looking down on them.

This is a world with magic, which is considered a natural resource and these people will basically use it to help them hunt, gather, purify water, etc. Instead of making machines and giant buildings like the larger part of the population. This will be knew to the main characters since they grew up in a very controlled environment.

I suppose I'm mostly afraid of offending people by saying the wrong things. How am I supposed to avoid this? Especially without erasing their culture?

People have already mentioned the culture thing, so I'll dive into your sheltered kid POV. There won't be a way around that, sadly. Your character will get culture shock and might look down on some practices. They'll yearn for their old comforts. Depending on who they are, maybe they learn to appreciate the why things are different there, or they come in with that appreciation already.

As someone who's visited Kuwait, Iraq... Ireland, Canada, and Mexico, I've had my fair share of culture shock.

At 19, did I fully understand why some of the Kuwaiti workers at a fast food joint wouldn't take orders from a female? Was I a bit chipped at that? Yes. Did someone older than me explain why she didn't take offense, explaining their religion and culture and the relationship men and females had in that country? Yes, and it cleared up some of my confusion and irritation. It'll happen regardless. Just let your character grow from the experience.


And sometimes I longed for some of my old comfort, like food... because tea in a McDonald's Kuwait is not the same as tea in the States because iced sweet tea is a foreign concept, and the Irish looked at me strangely every time I ordered ranch, not knowing what it even was, and giving me garlic mayo instead.

 

[Meg]

[Deleted for posting too soon.]

 

[Unimportant]

[Deleted for posting too soon.]

Ack. Deleted for posting in the wrong thread!

 

[Meg]

Others have had excellent advice. I'd like to explore another angle of it. As others have said, it's fantasy, so make stuff up; but all making-up comes from what we already know. And one thing that really bothers me about much of the fantasy genre is the tendency to over-simplify non-industrial cultures. And that comes from our collective ignorance about those cultures—the vast variety among them, the sophistication of them, the weird specificity that you find in any specific culture.

So my additional advice is, read up about lots of different cultures, including ancient ones, and the details of how they do things. Fall down YouTube rabbit-holes. Learn about the complexities of extracting copper from the earth and turning it into usable form. Learn about the music of ancient Greece. Learn about the Golden Age of Islamic Science. Learn about the Sami people of northern Scandinavia (indigenous minority, but white!), and the cultivated food-forests of pre-contact Hawai'i, Brazil, and the American pacific northwest. Learn about navigation methods of Polynesian cultures (we all think we know about it because we saw Moana, but really learn about it). Learn about how different cultures have different counting systems, and how some cultures don't use relative direction terms (left, right) only absolute (so they would literally say, the pot is to the east of the spoon). Look at the artwork and textile work of different cultures, get an idea of the wide variety of aesthetics that are possible.

Then let it all bubble around in your imagination until you are not directly copying any one thing, but rather your imaginings are enriched from a lot of difference sources.

Doing this sort of self-education will not only make better fantasy writers, it can also make all of us better human beings.

 

[mccardey]

^ I love this post, @Meg Wilson - it's such an exciting, expansive, enriching way to think about culture.

It's not about whether people will be hurt or offended by what we write: if we're honest, very few people will read what we write, vanishingly few from the group we're appropriating, and likely fewer of them will be hurt or outraged by it. It's about letting go of this privileged idea that everything belongs to us even when we really don't know much about it - it's about not playing to that idea.

 

[Jazz Club]

And sometimes I longed for some of my old comfort, like food... because tea in a McDonald's Kuwait is not the same as tea in the States because iced sweet tea is a foreign concept, and the Irish looked at me strangely every time I ordered ranch, not knowing what it even was, and giving me garlic mayo instead.

Not really relevant to OP, but I'm surprised you got culture shock in Ireland. I suppose we don't have too much ranch dressing here, but apart from that... OK I've just googled. Ranch dressing sounds great, but yeah we really don't have that here. I suppose you can make your own from scratch though.

OP, I have to confess I'm not 100% sure what the question is. If you're making up a group of people from scratch, you should be fine as long as you don't give them stereotypical, offensive characteristics associated with any real-life group of people. Definitely best to steer clear of them having darker skin than the more 'modern' people though. And better to steer clear of calling them 'a tribe', as Mccardey says. Obviously some parts of their culture are going to be drawn from real life, but you could consider drawing on your own culture a couple of centuries ago, or more? This shouldn't offend anyone.

Tbh there are a lot of similarites around the world when it comes to certain rites of passage – for example, when it comes to funerals, many cultures have some kind of a wake/waiting up with the dead person. Lots of cultures have a tradition of giving gifts when people get married, and a honeymoon, etc. You should be fine using some of these traditions and tweaking them a little to make them unique for your world. (Remember if you're writing fantasy, the reader is going to expect...fantasy, not the exact culture of a real-world group of people.)

Best of luck! I do believe you're not trying to offend anyone, and it's great that you asked the question rather than just diving right into murky waters. And I sympathise with feeling like you're coming across more curtly than you mean to. It's just the nature of internet message boards. There's no voice tone, facial epressions etc. I bet I come across ruder than I mean to plenty of the time!

 

[DottieLK]

Then let it all bubble around in your imagination until you are not directly copying any one thing, but rather your imaginings are enriched from a lot of difference sources.

Doing this sort of self-education will not only make better fantasy writers, it can also make all of us better human beings.

hehe I LOVE this, thank you for sharing. I'll definitely try this from now on!

 

[Meg]

Meg Wilson said:
[Deleted for posting too soon.]
Ack. Deleted for posting in the wrong thread!

Deleted for being too meta.

 

[Unimportant]

Not really relevant to OP, but I'm surprised you got culture shock in Ireland. I suppose we don't have too much ranch dressing here, but apart from that... OK I've just googled. Ranch dressing sounds great, but yeah we really don't have that here. I suppose you can make your own from scratch though.

But do you have Thousand Island dressing? That's the big question.

Tbh there are a lot of similarites around the world when it comes to certain rites of passage – for example, when it comes to funerals, many cultures have some kind of a wake/waiting up with the dead person. Lots of cultures have a tradition of giving gifts when people get married, and a honeymoon, etc. You should be fine using some of these traditions and tweaking them a little to make them unique for your world. (Remember if you're writing fantasy, the reader is going to expect...fantasy, not the exact culture of a real-world group of people.)

Wow, good stuff to think about!

 

[Jazz Club]

But do you have Thousand Island dressing? That's the big question.

Yes we do! When I was a kid I thought my friend's family were the height of sophistication because they had a bottle in the fridge at all times. We never had it at home. Carns* here would make it just by mixing ketchup and mayo and nothing else and be like 'Ta da! Thousand Island dressing!'

* Carn = boorish person