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Jazz Club

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Dude... you aint seen nuthin. I learned to drive in Swindon, where literally the most famous thing about the town is called the Magic Roundabout... but it's not just a roundabout. It's SIX roundabouts. With weird islands to separate the filter lanes. It's also why I failed 3 driving tests!
That's pretty bad. Craigavon has 8 big roundabouts and I don't even know how many smaller ones. It doesn't have a town centre and basically IS roundabouts. They don't even have names, just roundabout A, B., C etc. It's pretty dystopian.
I don't even... what... how do people drive in that death trap??? Why are you allowed to go left AND right? And you had to drive in that for your driving test? I'm gonna pass out just from looking at it.

My driving test was just a silly course at the DMV and that's it.
Wait, hang on, they don't make you drive around with the driving test examiner in the car at all? They've got to, surely?
No wonder Jersey drivers are so bad.
So that's not just a joke in the Stephanie Plum novels? 😅And do your cars explode once per book, like in that series? 😜
Well I guess it depends whether positive or negative reinforcement works better for you. :oops: But for my brain, I can't write if I can't write. And when I can write, I make the time. The two biggest things to get myself to write are snowplowing (not with actual snow, the writing exercise!)
What's that exercise? I don't know it. (Snow seems to be a theme today!)
 

Farnham

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Elaborate.
I just didn't want it to be misinterpreted as being insulting. What I mean is kind of like an electrician is working in a bar and says to the bartender "Hand me a screwdriver," and the bartender gives him vodka and orange juice. Just different frames of reference.
 
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Farnham

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I don't really follow. Are you saying that people in rural areas are finding it harder to access books now? But surely it's easier than ever in a way, with ebooks etc.?
Yes. All recreational reading comes out of entertainment funds. Beginning with the rise in paper and printing in the 1970s, books and periodicals passed the "Whoa" point, and that was in an era with high inflation. Reading for entertainment began to drop. That in turn led to lack of sales and eventually problems with distributers, which reduced what was available, which further reading for entertainment, and there was a feed-back loop. You find some in a certain department store, but it's a shadow of what was there twenty years ago. Went to a US chain store called Ollies, and was amazed and pleased to find a selection much like the old days. But it's rare, and getting to that store was over an hour drive one-way. Had we not already had business in that town, we'd never have stopped by.

Yes, ebooks gives a huge selection and there's all sorts of public domain works, but you have to already read for pleasure. That's less now that it was fifty years ago. At least, it is here. The lack of "Hey, I want to read that" impulse buys hasn't helped.
 

Farnham

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Doesn't that just meant that people in rural areas have moved over to digital reading, by nescessity? I mean, I'm assuming people didn't just stop reading just because stores disappeared. I'd also assume that more people have access to reading material now that most things are digital, than did before (but then I live in a country where having a smart-device is more or less mandatory in day to day life no matter how far or near from other people you live, no idea what it's like where you live).

Anyways, I grew up in the countryside, and we rarely bought books, they were expensive and there was more than enough to read in the "family library". As an adult, I have bought more books in the last 5 years than I did my first 20, all because I can read it on a device and I don't have to go anywhere physically to buy them, and I have a lot more to choose from on the internet than I have in a physical store, not to forget, the price is often way lower. I babble on and forget what the point was, but you know what I mean, lol.
No, because there was a huge lag between the contraction of the distribution of books and periodicals and ebooks. The contraction started in the 1970s. It was in the late 1980s and really into the 1990s that you started to have ebooks, first in straight ASCII text, then more like what we have now. Except the most portable reader was a laptop. Can't remember for certain, but I think the famous Baen Free Library and ebooks on CD bundled with select paperbacks started years after Jim Baen left BIX (Byte Information Exchange, as in Byte magazine) and the end of BIX itself. That began in the ear of desktops and laptops as ereaders and carried on into the ereader era before the CDs stopped.

What it amounts to is not having the option of picking up a book or periodical accelerated the move of people away from books as entertainment before there was an option of of something different.
 

KennyIsArlos

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No need, I already save enough syllables in the rest of the sentence! Laziest accent... ever??
More like efficient! :cool:
They have Yield signs in the Republic of Ireland, but up here the same sign is named Give Way. You know you're over the border when the signs change to Yield! It makes me think of medieval knights 😜
Yeah, true! The word "yield" is pretty old; it belongs next to "fiend" and "morrow" pfft.
Baby circle 🤣That's amazing. We just call them mini roundabouts.
Cute little baby circles. :3 3 syllables versus 5, winning!
I'd say I'm going to put on a wash. Not too different.
Oh neat! Now I don't feel too crazy lol.
They wouldn't really arrest you, would they?? So now when I visit the US, I need to remember not to walk on the street, and also not to pump my own petrol in NJ? This is way too much to remember!
According to a quick google search, you can get fined between $50 and $500 for pumping your own gas. Although you might just get yelled at. But if you happen to get multiple tickets, you might land some jail time. So yes, but you have to try really hard! Also, most people walk wherever they want anyway, so don't worry too much about that. As long as you don't get hit by a car.
Wait, hang on, they don't make you drive around with the driving test examiner in the car at all? They've got to, surely?
N o p e. The examiner sits with you in the car while you do the course, but that's it. No actual road test. And if you're 17 when you get your permit, you're not required 6 hours of instructed driving lessons like you are at 16.
So that's not just a joke in the Stephanie Plum novels? 😅And do your cars explode once per book, like in that series? 😜
Obviously! Wouldn't be NJ without a car exploding once in a while. :cool: I should add that to my book so verify it as truth.
What's that exercise? I don't know it. (Snow seems to be a theme today!)
Snowplowing is when you set a timer (5-10 mins, however long) and then you're not allowed to stop writing until the time is up. It doesn't matter about what. I usually do that if I get stuck on an idea, and then 10 minutes later I have a page-long wall of text that's just me ranting about how I want to approach the idea. Usually I come to a solution after "talking" to myself!

I guess they call it snowplowing because you're metaphorically plowing through your thoughts. :p
 

Unimportant

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Yes. All recreational reading comes out of entertainment funds.
I disagree that recreational reading has to cost the person money. There's this thing called libraries....
Yes, ebooks gives a huge selection and there's all sorts of public domain works, but you have to already read for pleasure.
Or you read what is assigned by your teachers. Millions and millions and millions of people do that.
That's less now that it was fifty years ago. At least, it is here.
COVID lockdowns resulted in a massive boost in reading. YA fiction sales increased by nearly a third.
The lack of "Hey, I want to read that" impulse buys hasn't helped.
Maybe people are getting the "Hey, I want to read that" books out of, say, libraries?
 
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thall

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I live very rural as well (but in the US) and most readers here use our excellent library system or buy their books online. In my experience, I don't think that rural people read less; they just browse in bookstores less.

Closest bookstore (B&N) is about an hour's drive away.
 
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CMBright

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I suspect that if reading decreased starting in the 70s, it was because that was when a TV became common in every house. There are only so many leisure hours in a day. Go back to the fifties and there might be only one TV in a neighborhood. Go back to the 1870s and reading material don't have screens to compete with at all, though there would have still been games, music and such.
 

CMBright

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Back in the 80s there was a library in the Grand Canyon National Park. I volunteered at that library one summer when I worked as a guest room attendent. As far as I know it could still be there. Public libraries of various sizes are tucked all over the place.

I am aware of a library branch built a few years ago, so while some are defunded, others are going strong.
 
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Ashigara

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If you focus only on the negative, when you get criticism, you think nothing is worth salvaging, which is much harder to deal with. Then it becomes: either they're right and your whole writing is trash and should be thrown away, or they're wrong and your writing is fine. Neither of these approaches can lead to progress.

I think this is the biggest issue I have right now. I'm not proud of my work, and I've wrestled with the thought of deleting the short story draft since I'm unsure if I can salvage it. Someone else could, but me? I can't write, all I can do is obfuscate and fail to draw in readers with my words.

I still don't know if I should lengthen it into a novel, because 1) if I only posted the first half but longer, the second half that people liked wouldn't be read, and 2) nobody liked the first half, and I don't know if I can change that even with more words.
 

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I think this is the biggest issue I have right now. I'm not proud of my work, and I've wrestled with the thought of deleting the short story draft since I'm unsure if I can salvage it. Someone else could, but me? I can't write, all I can do is obfuscate and fail to draw in readers with my words.

I still don't know if I should lengthen it into a novel, because 1) if I only posted the first half but longer, the second half that people liked wouldn't be read, and 2) nobody liked the first half, and I don't know if I can change that even with more words.
If you're not confident the story can work as novel because of the first part, you can do it the other way around: fix the short story's first part, then work on the novel.

What was the readers' issue with part one? It can probably be fixed, not necessarily with more words but with different words.
 

owlion

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Just don't do the name thing where they all start with the same handful of letters! (like I do, lol)
I actually ended up with a couple of rhyming names which I was half-tempted to leave in for fun, but it made it hard to take the characters seriously 🤣

Someday I'll be done, right?
The general thing I've heard is that if you're writing any number of words a day, you're getting closer to the end, so yes you will be!

I've sent out a few queries for my haunted house story. CNRs are getting more common and (not complaining, just stating) it might make batches difficult if I don't know when I should hear back. I'm wondering if I should sign up for Query Tracker again.
I mostly just set 3 months as the window for replies, then CNR - if I hear back after, great, if not I can just move on.

Nice, good to get over that hurdle. Do you find it hard to write the story until they have their proper name? Some people use placeholders but I can't really do that. I find it hard to change how I think of them once I've got started.
Yeah, I need to have the character names done in advance, otherwise it feels too 'floaty', I guess? It might be partly because I can't visualise the characters, so having a name helps with placement.

It might take a little longer (or maybe not, who knows) but I'm sure it'll be fun to try something new!
Thanks, I hope so :D I've actually had a couple of rejections for Creepy Crawley where agents have said they loved the characters and voice, but weren't super keen on the paranormal plot, which also feeds into my general feedback over the years which is that I'm much better at characters and interpersonal conflict than I am external plots. Contemporary leans a lot more heavily on characters, so maybe it'll end up being my niche or something.

I usually wait until the end to come up with a name (unless somebody else is working on a project with me and I have to name it). Not sure if that would help you more or less!
Thanks! I have some trouble holding onto the characters if they don't have names for some reason - I wish I could leave names to the end! I actually get every single name down in advance, from the main group of characters to the smallest side character. It's the part of plotting that takes the longest 🤣

Aaaah good luck! You're gonna do great, I just know it. I hope you enjoy your adventure into a new genre and find yourself loving it as much as your usuals. ♥️ If you end up making an enemies-to-lovers romantic subplot then please 👏 send 👏 it 👏 OVER!
Thanks :D I hope I can do a good job. Haha, there's romance in there (not for the protagonist), though I currently have no idea what form it's taking!

Dude... you aint seen nuthin. I learned to drive in Swindon, where literally the most famous thing about the town is called the Magic Roundabout... but it's not just a roundabout. It's SIX roundabouts. With weird islands to separate the filter lanes. It's also why I failed 3 driving tests!

https://www.regit.cars/car-news/is-this-the-most-dangerous-junction-in-the-country-68238
I've heard of that! I hope I never have to see it (I don't get on with roundabouts thanks to getting very motion sick very quickly).
 

CWNitz

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Thanks, I hope so :D I've actually had a couple of rejections for Creepy Crawley where agents have said they loved the characters and voice, but weren't super keen on the paranormal plot, which also feeds into my general feedback over the years which is that I'm much better at characters and interpersonal conflict than I am external plots. Contemporary leans a lot more heavily on characters, so maybe it'll end up being my niche or something.
Oh. That's why it's so hard finding character-driven paranormal or fantasy stories! They get rejected. Well, that's sad. Those are my favorite kind of stories.

I have no doubt you'll do great with contemporary, but I love the way you use supernatural elements to highlight internal issues, like in the Turning Man.

Edit: although, now that I think about it, I love this kind of stories now, but I didn't really as a kid, so it might be more of an age thing.
 

Brigid Barry

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@owlion thank you for the tip! I was wondering what I should use as a self-imposed deadline. Three months sounds reasonable.
 
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If you're not confident the story can work as novel because of the first part, you can do it the other way around: fix the short story's first part, then work on the novel.

What was the readers' issue with part one? It can probably be fixed, not necessarily with more words but with different words.

The conflict being presented is not grabbing the readers, because it's happening for reasons they don't understand. That, and they were confused as to how many characters there were despite there being two, so it's massive clarity issues. But how can I deal with that other issue of 'nothing that grabbed me'?

It must be because it is a follow-up work to an established work. I thought I could catch readers up and help them care despite that, but that is the last time I overestimate my abilities.
 

Farnham

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I disagree that recreational reading has to cost the person money. There's this thing called libraries....
Again, you have to have access to them. In my childhood there were bookmobiles. These were large two-door vans the size of a small bus that not only visited schools, but also points outside of towns. They were small mobile libraries. It was a treat in school when you name came up to help select books for your class. Away from school, you checked out books as you would a library. Just signed your name on the check-out list; no card needed.

I can't remember when bookmobiles went away. It's like they were there and then they weren't. It was sometime in the 1970s. Back then, in school, you weren't restricted to books by reading course. The whole library was open to enjoyment. Outside of the school library, the nearest were in the county seats, which was a once-a-week (if that) trip and varied considerably in the number of books.

There were some periodicals in the libraries. You wouldn't find Alfred Hitchchock's Mystery Magazine or Amazing Stories. Those you could pick up at the grocer's or drug store or, later, the convenience stories. Then, during the contraction, they disappeared from there. Had to drive a hour to a bookstore to find such. When that one closed and the nearest bookstores were two hours away, that was a stopping point, or, if I had a friend heading that way, I'd ask them to look for genre periodicals, but those became hard to find even there.

As to assigned reading....bleah. In a lit class, dark and dreary, sums that up. It's reading, and some may like what's assigned, but like an Ernest Hemmingway anthology, it tends to be unrelentingly dark. It's reading, but much of it isn't reading for pleasure. Reading for pleasure, now, that's something different, and that declined long before there were ebooks.

The children tipped us off on just how much. We read to ours and we read and we let them know that there was fun reading out there. But while they had a small circle who read for pleasure, for others that fell away by high school or in the high school years. That was very different than when it was common to see people reading paperbacks.

How do I know they aren't reading ebooks? I don't. I only know it's unlikely because of that gap between the contraction of print distribution and portable devices to read books on. That's a gap close to a generation. That's people who got out of reading for pleasure because they couldn't find what they wanted to read raising children who don't see them reading for pleasure.

What goes on in the cities, I don't know. My hypothesis is that the contraction of print distribution caused a feed-back effect in terms of declining rural sales and readership. That matches what I've observed in a span of about sixty years.
 

Farnham

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In addition, libraries also lend out e-books, so there's no need to actually visit a library if it's too far away.
Now if there was good access to the Internet. That's changing, but I'm reminded the first local electric lines were run in 1938 and the first local telephone lines in the 1950s.
 

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The conflict being presented is not grabbing the readers, because it's happening for reasons they don't understand. That, and they were confused as to how many characters there were despite there being two, so it's massive clarity issues. But how can I deal with that other issue of 'nothing that grabbed me'?

It must be because it is a follow-up work to an established work. I thought I could catch readers up and help them care despite that, but that is the last time I overestimate my abilities.
Ah yes, if it's a sequel, you'll have a hard time engaging people who didn't read the first part.

If you make it into a novel, it should probably include both parts.
 
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Ashigara

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Ah yes, if it's a sequel, you'll have a hard time engaging people who didn't read the first part.

If you make it into a novel, it should probably include both parts.

So, I guess it was hopeless from the start. The first part consists of a trilogy and a sequel, which is impossible to fit in. Another feedback I received was the inundation of technical terms. For mechs, I used to like writing a short paragraph of what they looked like, and their armaments. Until I realized nobody wanted to read that, so I reduced it to a sentence, and now, I no longer write them anymore. It hurts to see my past drafts include a paragraph of shit I know folks will skim over.

Edit: overwhelming + unwieldy + wordy + melodramatic. So much for having a "talent with words."
 

Brigid Barry

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Again, you have to have access to them. In my childhood there were bookmobiles. These were large two-door vans the size of a small bus that not only visited schools, but also points outside of towns. They were small mobile libraries. It was a treat in school when you name came up to help select books for your class. Away from school, you checked out books as you would a library. Just signed your name on the check-out list; no card needed.

I can't remember when bookmobiles went away. It's like they were there and then they weren't. It was sometime in the 1970s. Back then, in school, you weren't restricted to books by reading course. The whole library was open to enjoyment. Outside of the school library, the nearest were in the county seats, which was a once-a-week (if that) trip and varied considerably in the number of books.

There were some periodicals in the libraries. You wouldn't find Alfred Hitchchock's Mystery Magazine or Amazing Stories. Those you could pick up at the grocer's or drug store or, later, the convenience stories. Then, during the contraction, they disappeared from there. Had to drive a hour to a bookstore to find such. When that one closed and the nearest bookstores were two hours away, that was a stopping point, or, if I had a friend heading that way, I'd ask them to look for genre periodicals, but those became hard to find even there.

As to assigned reading....bleah. In a lit class, dark and dreary, sums that up. It's reading, and some may like what's assigned, but like an Ernest Hemmingway anthology, it tends to be unrelentingly dark. It's reading, but much of it isn't reading for pleasure. Reading for pleasure, now, that's something different, and that declined long before there were ebooks.

The children tipped us off on just how much. We read to ours and we read and we let them know that there was fun reading out there. But while they had a small circle who read for pleasure, for others that fell away by high school or in the high school years. That was very different than when it was common to see people reading paperbacks.

How do I know they aren't reading ebooks? I don't. I only know it's unlikely because of that gap between the contraction of print distribution and portable devices to read books on. That's a gap close to a generation. That's people who got out of reading for pleasure because they couldn't find what they wanted to read raising children who don't see them reading for pleasure.

What goes on in the cities, I don't know. My hypothesis is that the contraction of print distribution caused a feed-back effect in terms of declining rural sales and readership. That matches what I've observed in a span of about sixty years.
We don't have local bookstores anymore. The closest one is 40 minutes away. My kids literally never saw me reading outside of assigned reading for college classes, both of them hate ebooks, and both of them are voracious readers. My eldest has a 7-foot high by three-foot wide book shelf stacked two deep plus a second bookshelf. Aka, kid's got a ton of books. They ask for Amazon gift cards for birthdays and Christmas and then they spend it almost exclusively on books.

Back in my day, which is still a thing today, not only is the school library available for pleasure reading, but teachers also have classroom libraries that kids can borrow from.

We live in a rural area (and I have for most of my adult life) and for $35 a year my entire family can check out as many books as our hearts desire from the city library. All summer long we make bi-weekly trips to said library and (no exaggerating) they'll each leave with 5-10 novels. Their father, who hasn't ever read a book that he wasn't forced to, lives in an adjacent rural town, and both our communities have small libraries.

Books exist...access to books exists. If someone wants it, they can make it happen.


My paranormal suspense is definitely for adults, and leans into women's fiction. I think it's also character driven (or maybe I don't understand what that means). If the MC was just "normal" and weird things were happening there'd be no conflict. But if she doesn't trust herself and one friend is saying "omg totally ghosts" and the MC doesn't want to believe it's ghosts and another friend is saying "ghosts aren't real", that's a different story.
 
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Nether

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...and I realized I have a character named Audrey and another nicknamed Addy. This is, um, probably not good.

I always assumed most people in the US didn't call them roundabouts?And maybe some areas don't even have roundabouts, only intersections? I'm sure they studied this on Mythbusters! Trying to decide if intersections are faster (spoiler, they aren't).

I also had the impression that some US speakers call what I would call a carousel or merry-go-round a roudabout? Those things with horses you have at funfairs. Here a roundabout is exclusively on the road, for cars.

The term roundabout isn't used at all in the US, afaik. I'm not sure we really even have those. Certainly not anything I've seen, and I only know about them from jokes about Americans going to other countries (such as the Simpsons visit to.... maybe it was the Australia one?).

And usually when people say "circle" here, they mean a cul-de-sac, which is very different from a roundabout.

I was talking to a friend from a different state one time, saying how "I was driving through the circle," and they said, "...the what?" I thought a lot of people called it a circle! It's circular. There's a lot of roundabouts near me. One of them is extremely busy and connects two highways with a semi-busy street. It's heavily anxiety-inducing when somebody tries to cut in front of you at the yield. I avoid it between 12pm and 7pm. Another one is a tiny little baby circle that's way more relaxing to drive through.

Huh. Jersey is a very strange place. Although we're practically neighbors, I don't think I'll ever be stopping by for a cup of tea, not with those strange traffic circles and professional pumpers.

Having never seen snow before, I joke to myself that snow is a social construct made up by non-equatorial countries to feel superior to us. Real talk though, snow seems like the kind of stuff you think is beautiful for five minutes before you hate having to shovel it out of the driveway. No hurry to see it for myself as a result.

It is unbelievably awful. It's the worst part of winter.

Correction: it's the only state where it's illegal now. Oregon passed a bill to allow self-service, but I think you can also choose to have a gas attendant pump it for you. NJ isn't budging, though, and frankly the residents don't care to change it over. At least it gives more jobs?

Oh, NJ, you so crazy.

Just be like James Patterson's Alex Cross series and incorporate one word into all of your titles haha. Surely it won't get old!

I feel like that's less of an inconvenience than character names. The Indiana Jones novels, for instance, all used "Indiana Jones and the..." where the real title was afterward (which HP may've done, too?)

For that first YA series (which, who knows, I might try to push more MG or tweener given the younger character ages), the first three manuscripts use the H-named family in the title and, of the remaining series, many of the remaining books were meant to as well. (Although the second trilogy / quadrilogy was going to go with something different.)

And then, if I did spinoffs, I was going to use the name of other families from the town.

At this point, snow is a social construct to the non-equatorial countries too. The one snowfall I got this year: I was stuck in a basement at work for 8 hours, and by the time I got home, the snow was all melted. I just wanted one snow day for the season but I guess that wasn't possible.

I don't live very far north of you (unless you were talking about previously living in NJ) yet I wound up taking a snow day this real rather than drive in that crap. And it'd snowed multiple times within the past year, and stuck to the ground after.

The Midwestern states, though, that usually don't get any snow? They got a lot of inches that they weren't equipped for. Climate change sucks.

afaik, midwestern states tend to get a lot of now. I'd heard stories about places like Chicago having tunnels to avoid it during winter.
 

KennyIsArlos

That's rough, buddy
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Huh. Jersey is a very strange place. Although we're practically neighbors, I don't think I'll ever be stopping by for a cup of tea, not with those strange traffic circles and professional pumpers.
Haha I understand. It's actually a very nice state depending on where you visit. :3 Anything south of Rahway is pretty good. The central counties are the best!
I feel like that's less of an inconvenience than character names. The Indiana Jones novels, for instance, all used "Indiana Jones and the..." where the real title was afterward (which HP may've done, too?)
Thanks! I have some trouble holding onto the characters if they don't have names for some reason - I wish I could leave names to the end! I actually get every single name down in advance, from the main group of characters to the smallest side character. It's the part of plotting that takes the longest 🤣
Oh, oops... I thought the conversation was about title names, not character names. My bad! :ROFLMAO: Now I understand. Naming characters is hard. I always make the mistake of having too many character names start with the same letter.
And then, if I did spinoffs, I was going to use the name of other families from the town.
Nice plan! It's good to name those titles planned out.
I don't live very far north of you (unless you were talking about previously living in NJ) yet I wound up taking a snow day this real rather than drive in that crap. And it'd snowed multiple times within the past year, and stuck to the ground after.
Yeah I'm not sure. Towns farther west (by only 30 minutes) got a lot of snow, but I didn't. I guess because I'm a reasonable distance from the beach? Beach weather is always weird.
afaik, midwestern states tend to get a lot of now. I'd heard stories about places like Chicago having tunnels to avoid it during winter.
When I said Midwestern I was thinking of Arkansas, but that's actually a Southern state! I thought it classified in a different category. But you're right, the Midwestern states do get a lot of snow. It's the Southern states that are getting an unusual amount. Texas has to deal with all those snow storms they're not equipped for. They probably cancel school because of an inch of snow, meanwhile we need 5+ inches and icy roads to cancel haha.
 
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thall

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Oh. That's why it's so hard finding character-driven paranormal or fantasy stories! They get rejected. Well, that's sad. Those are my favorite kind of stories.
They are my favorite too! I end up reading romance, which isn't my favorite genre, because it's generally character-driven!
 
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