What's On Your Mind About Your Writing?

[Nether]

I feel like Tarentino likely does a lot of stuff for shock value and edginess, tbh. It's part of his brand. And he can get away with stuff normal writers/etc probably can't because he's built a reputation for doing it.

Although I'm beyond profane with some of my writing, he uses a lot of words I wouldn't risk because they're likely pretty hard stops for an agent/publisher outside of very narrow circumstances. Plus, as a general rule, if I wouldn't say the word IRL, it probably won't ever appear in my writing.

 

[Sonsofthepharaohs]

On a different note, that slur for Irish people, Mick, is kind of stupid. It's like 'oh a lot of you guys have surnames that start with Mc!' Yes, well noticedWhen I come across it in a book I'm just bemused because it's so crap.

I always just thought it was because there are a lot of Catholics in Ireland, and Michael is a very common Catholic name, which in Ireland often gets shortened to Mick? Never associated it with the Mc/Mac prefix at all

Anyway, by far the more common term I see for an Irishman is Paddy, and it's fairly obvious where that comes from

I don't know of that many slurs for the English, although I'm sure there are plenty. I find it very amusing that the French call us les rosbifs

 

[Farnham]

At one time, the English and the French referred to each other by the very same slur, both based on the assumption that it was a common curse of each country. No, I shalln't repeat it.

 

[Farnham]

Although I'm beyond profane with some of my writing, he uses a lot of words I wouldn't risk because they're likely pretty hard stops for an agent/publisher outside of very narrow circumstances. Plus, as a general rule, if I wouldn't say the word IRL, it probably won't ever appear in my writing.

Author: "But Tarentino did it that way."
Agent: "And when you're as famous as him, you can, too."

 

[Jazz Club]

I'm curious about them too. And yeah, the risk with too many different sources of feedback is to end up with something bland because you're trying to please everyone.

Agreed. And with so many feedbackers I need to be aware of that danger, for sure. I always think hard about any possible changes, and some lines are non-negotiable. But if enough people hate a line, pretty often I lose it.

Some of the lines that divide opinion are:

He watches the roll of notes like a cartoon dog watching a string of sausages. That's when Mara ia bribing that dodgy estate agent/realtor.

But he also stole the girl I love. And made me beg for mercy at his feet. Dan musing on Scott's crimes.

Somebody scored. Probably Roger. When Roger scores the touchdown.

I swear I see beads of sweat break out on his forehead even in the dark. Stefan nervous in the finale.

Some people argue they should drive Jesse home before the finale (not happening, not a chance )

And many more! I've kept all this stuff in, btw.

On another note, I enjoyed Django Unchained a lot! Jamie Foxx and Christoph Waltz were an amazing duo.

Yes, I do like Jamie Foxx

 

[owlion]

Sounds like you've decided it's the best thing for the story. In which case, it's probably for the best. I'm the wrong person to ask about this. I get really attached to my characters and I find it difficult to put them through too much sometimes, which is bad for my writing. I even find it hard to kill villains. I didn't kill anyone in my book 1 and I'm not sure I'm going to be able to do it in book 2, either. When do readers expect you to do that?

I don't think you need to kill off characters at all! So long as it seems like there's a big risk of them losing something, that should be enough for stakes. I've occasionally read books where it felt like characters were killed off at times that didn't feel natural, so it didn't hit as hard as it should - which is to say if it doesn't feel like a natural thing to happen, don't worry about doing it!

Yeah there don't seem to be too many that are just dramas or what you'd call 'upmarket/women's fiction' in the YA category. Although, overcoming trauma seems to be a popualr theme for those that do exist. I found one on Amazon last night, The Way I Used to Be by Amber Smith, which is about a girl recovering from a sexual assualt. It gets great reviews. I've put it on my buy list.

It's interesting to see that's the case! I haven't looked up YA contemporary for years (I think the last ones I read were the early 2000s books by Keith Gray). That sounds like a good book, I'll look it up!

Yeah I know what you mean. Unexpected criticism hits harder than stuff you're kind of expecting, I've found! It's also worth remembering that some people don't necessarily mean 'too dark' as a negative; they're maybe just concerned about how to query the work or something like that.

Yeah, I think it shakes your confidence more somehow. That's true! At the time, I was in a bit of a downer period, so probably gave up too quickly. I personally love dark fiction (so long as it's not too realistic about certain things).

Ah yeah I hate presentations too! Definitely take time to recover mentally from that.

Thanks Presentations are soul destroying.

As the last bits of beta reader feedback roll in for draft two of my YA novel, it's really hitting me how subjective writing is. Like, there'll be a line that some beta readers say they love, never ever lose it, and so on, and then another beta reader will just cross out that line with MS Word Track Changes. So apparently they can live without it I guess there's some kind of lesson in there about finding your audience or something!

Thinking about my sequel, as well. I don't know which characters from book one to bench and which to foreground. I don't really want to bench any of them. But I think if I try to fit everybody in, it'll make the plot too bitty, since I have some new characters too. I'm not sure how to explain it to them Sorry, guys, you'll be back in book 3!

It is definitely subjective! It's funny when there's a 50/50 split on something too, so there's just absolutely no consensus. It's cool you're bringing back all the characters eventually

 

[owlion]

Agreed. And with so many feedbackers I need to be aware of that danger, for sure. I always think hard about any possible changes, and some lines are non-negotiable. But if enough people hate a line, pretty often I lose it.

Some of the lines that divide opinion are:

He watches the roll of notes like a cartoon dog watching a string of sausages. That's when Mara ia bribing that dodgy estate agent/realtor.

But he also stole the girl I love. And made me beg for mercy at his feet. Dan musing on Scott's crimes.

Somebody scored. Probably Roger. When Roger scores the touchdown.

I swear I see beads of sweat break out on his forehead even in the dark. Stefan nervous in the finale.

Some people argue they should drive Jesse home before the finale (not happening, not a chance )

And many more! I've kept all this stuff in, btw.

I'm glad you've kept these in, I really like all of them!

 

[CWNitz]

Agreed. And with so many feedbackers I need to be aware of that danger, for sure. I always think hard about any possible changes, and some lines are non-negotiable. But if enough people hate a line, pretty often I lose it.

Some of the lines that divide opinion are:

He watches the roll of notes like a cartoon dog watching a string of sausages. That's when Mara ia bribing that dodgy estate agent/realtor.

But he also stole the girl I love. And made me beg for mercy at his feet. Dan musing on Scott's crimes.

Somebody scored. Probably Roger. When Roger scores the touchdown.

I swear I see beads of sweat break out on his forehead even in the dark. Stefan nervous in the finale.

Some people argue they should drive Jesse home before the finale (not happening, not a chance )

And many more! I've kept all this stuff in, btw.

Uh. Those are all very opinionated. Not something I'd ever cross out without an explanation.

I prefer a manuscript with an unconventional but determined voice than something too polished, so I'm always on the side of keeping the weird little things when I beta.

 

[Jazz Club]

I always just thought it was because there are a lot of Catholics in Ireland, and Michael is a very common Catholic name, which in Ireland often gets shortened to Mick? Never associated it with the Mc/Mac prefix at all

Yeah I think you're right! It says on wikipedia and dictionary.com that it comes from Michael. I'm sure I read somewhere about it coming from Mc. Hmmm. Must've been all a dream. You'd think I'd know something like that

I don't know of that many slurs for the English, although I'm sure there are plenty. I find it very amusing that the French call us les rosbifs

The Brits, depending on tone, can sound pretty bad.


Speaking of slurs in books, this has reminded me of one of my favourite ever series, the Sharpe novels by Bernard Cornwell. It's full of 'whores' and 'Micks' and other Irish slurs. It's historical military fiction, set in the Peninsular Wars (early 1800s). The British army had a huge amount of Irish soliders at the time, and the Sergeants and officers would constantly yell slurs at them and call them drunk and lazy and stupid and call the Irish language 'gibberish', etc.

Obviously, the author doesn't agree with any of that. He just wants to portray the historical time period realistically. And I think it would be doing a historical disservice to not show the truth, tbh. Everything is so much more vivid because he leans right into the vernacular of the time.

Cornwell gives Sharpe a badass best friend from Donegal (Ireland), Sergeant Harper, just to prove all the haters wrong. He might be even cooler than Sharpe. He's huge and excellent at fighting, using this ridiculously powerful gun that would supposedly knock out anyone else if they tried to fire it. But he also has a strategic brain. His big genius is carrying a bag of maggots with him and then when one of his allies gets injured in battle, he puts them in the wound and they eat the diseased flesh so the person doesn't die of an infection (infected wounds being one of the main killers at the time, pre anti-biotics and all that).

 

[Farnham]

Using them for shock value bothers me too. I didn't see Django Unchained, but since I see a lot of white people hide their racism behind, "But I'm just trying to denounce racism!", I'm giving it a pass.

The far more uncomfortable question is whether that fits with the story. If a MC is surrounded by racists, then why isn't the MC a racist as well? There has to be a reason. By the same token, if the MC is as racist as their peers, then is there a reason for that racism to come to attention? I had an MC who had strong negative feelings toward a neighboring people. Think English and French during the 100 Years War. The only reason the MC gets addiment about it is so that it can come back later to bite the MC in a strong way. Otherwise, it never would have come up.

 

[Brigid Barry]

I have mixed feelings about slurs in fiction. I don't necessarily mind them when it's needed in the story. But sometimes, you'll have a character use a slur just so the white MC can be contrasted as not racist. And it feels exploitative. (I know that's not what you did, Brigid, you always go to great lengths to ensure diversity is done well.)

Thank you!

My question was prompted by wanting to have an asshole character use a derogatory name used towards lesbians just to be an ignorant schmuck. No contrasting but I agree, "well, look how racist this person is because they say these things, but because I don't, I'm not!" That kind of comparison makes me think that the second character doesn't see color and all lives matter.

Using them for shock value bothers me too. I didn't see Django Unchained, but since I see a lot of white people hide their racism behind, "But I'm just trying to denounce racism!", I'm giving it a pass.

I've watch Django Unchained, twice. The N-word is pretty prolific throughout, and my understanding is that Leonardo DiCaprio was initially very reluctant to use it and had to be encouraged by Jamie Foxx that it was okay.

I honestly don't know what makes it okay or not okay (I'm white so it's not my place), but Django was the main character who had his own agency and drove the plot. While his white friend helped him get places he might not have been able to go, he was by no means a white savior. Does that make a difference? I have no idea.

Spoiler: Spoiler

That the white guy dies instead of Jamie Foxx is telling too.

I am not big on gore (no slasher films for me), and yes, it's violent with lots of people getting shot, but I don't remember it being gory.

 

[Brigid Barry]

The far more uncomfortable question is whether that fits with the story. If a MC is surrounded by racists, then why isn't the MC a racist as well? There has to be a reason. By the same token, if the MC is as racist as their peers, then is there a reason for that racism to come to attention? I had an MC who had strong negative feelings toward a neighboring people. Think English and French during the 100 Years War. The only reason the MC gets addiment about it is so that it can come back later to bite the MC in a strong way. Otherwise, it never would have come up.

There are only two options:

1. The MC isn't from around there; or
2. It's being used as a cheap contrast to give the MC moral high ground.

 

[Sonsofthepharaohs]

If a MC is surrounded by racists, then why isn't the MC a racist as well?

There are only two options:

1. The MC isn't from around there; or
2. It's being used as a cheap contrast to give the MC moral high ground.

I think there can be other plausible in-story reasons.

In my novel, most people are racist. It's Egypt 15 years post Exodus - everyone hates the Hebrews. But my Big Bad also hates Nubians, because they're often used as muscle in the police force (he's general of the army, which has a rivalry with the police) so he just thinks they're inferior, dumb meat-heads. I imagine this is also pretty typical of Egyptian attitudes at the time, as they were often at war with Nubia.

My MC doesn't think this way, for 2 reasons: firstly, as head of the police, it's his sacred duty to maintain Ma'at, i.e. the Egyptian concept of justice and cosmic balance. To him, enshrined in that ideal is also equality. And secondly, his father was a general in charge of maintaining the border with Nubia, but instead of doing that by force he did it by brokering treaties, one of which involved marrying a Nubian warlord to his daughter. So the MC's brother-in-law is Nubian, and all his nieces and nephews are half Nubian. He loves his family. Therefore he has personal reasons why racism is so upsetting to him.

So I think you can have a non-racist character where racism is default, you just have to make it make sense.

 

[KennyIsArlos]

Somebody scored. Probably Roger. When Roger scores the touchdown.

I--no. Somebody said to take this out?! Like, they just crossed it out??? Just no. I can't be okay with a world where a beta crosses out this line. Unacceptable. Hands down best line in the book. I'll fight anyone who doesn't like it.

The other lines are also good, but you know this one has a special place in my heart. I mention it every time!

The far more uncomfortable question is whether that fits with the story. If a MC is surrounded by racists, then why isn't the MC a racist as well? There has to be a reason. By the same token, if the MC is as racist as their peers, then is there a reason for that racism to come to attention?

Yeah that's another thing to consider. Django Unchained took place in a time where everyone was racist, regardless of race. As people have said, Django himself made some offensive comments towards both black and white people. The only character who doesn't appear racist is Waltz's character, Dr. King Schultz. Like Brigid said, Schultz isn't a white savior who has an unyielding mission to end racism. He treats Django like a person. Nothing more, nothing less. Which makes the ending even more sad (see Brigid's post for spoilers).

So you can argue that the N word was fitting for the time period, until you realize that it's also used abundantly in every other Tarantino movie... but Django Unchained at least has a historic reason! It's excessive but it's not out of nowhere.

 

[Sonsofthepharaohs]

So you can argue that the N word was fitting for the time period, until you realize that it's also used abundantly in every other Tarantino movie... but Django Unchained at least has a historic reason! It's excessive but it's not out of nowhere.

I liked Django Unchained at the time, even though the only thing I can remember about it now is Leonardo DiCaprio in that meme

I don't love Tarantino in general though. Pulp fiction is one of the most overrated films of all time. Kill Bill is pure artistic conceit. I haven't even watched Reservoir Dogs because I can't get past 5 minutes of the boring, F word laden dialogue.

 

[Brigid Barry]

*grumbles about someone making flip remarks in her MS without thoroughly researching* Who even does that? Now I have to fix it...

ETA: I left myself helpful notes in my MS like this: what the fuck is even happening right now? Rewrite this whole section.

 

[AbelCM]

ETA: I left myself helpful notes in my MS like this: what the fuck is even happening right now? Rewrite this whole section.

I find helpful notes like, "This needs to suck less." I think my favorite though was, in the middle of a section I wanted to radically shorten, "The following is mostly important."

I really liked Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction as a youngster. I wonder what I would think about them now.

 

[Nether]

Kinda thinking there might be a logical gap or two with Cursed Poem... that or I need to adjust the time-frame. Although maybe the original time-frame covered it.

Oh, and I'm starting to think through Cursed Poem again. But then I was thinking about whether it'd be worth squeezing in a dual timeline, which might also help if the book goes short.

Agreed. And with so many feedbackers I need to be aware of that danger, for sure. I always think hard about any possible changes, and some lines are non-negotiable. But if enough people hate a line, pretty often I lose it.

Some of the lines that divide opinion are:

Although context is everything...

He watches the roll of notes like a cartoon dog watching a string of sausages. That's when Mara ia bribing that dodgy estate agent/realtor.

Not a fan, whether it's Dan or the realtor doing the watching.

But he also stole the girl I love. And made me beg for mercy at his feet. Dan musing on Scott's crimes.

Technically, isn't only one of those a crime? And I thought Dan stood aside.

Not sure whether it works since there's not enough context.

Somebody scored. Probably Roger. When Roger scores the touchdown.

It works.

I swear I see beads of sweat break out on his forehead even in the dark. Stefan nervous in the finale.

Not sure I like the filtering?

 

[AZombie]

That feeling when you're writing and everything clicks into place and you can't stop writing because, because, because, really is one of the best feelings ever. Maybe I won't have anything worth writing tomorrow, but today I can pretend that I can do this forever.

 

[Jazz Club]

Uh. Those are all very opinionated. Not something I'd ever cross out without an explanation.

To be fair I don't mind people crossing stuff out—I do it all the time too. Maybe they think the explanation will be more hurtful than just crossing it out

I prefer a manuscript with an unconventional but determined voice than something too polished, so I'm always on the side of keeping the weird little things when I beta.

Same, definitely. Some people cross out most of the jokes, which I guess means they don't want humour, or at least not my humour

 

[KennyIsArlos]

That feeling when you're writing and everything clicks into place and you can't stop writing because, because, because, really is one of the best feelings ever. Maybe I won't have anything worth writing tomorrow, but today I can pretend that I can do this forever.

Just want to let you know that you're amazing. Thank you for sharing this. Keep writing.

 

[Nether]

That feeling when you're writing and everything clicks into place and you can't stop writing because, because, because, really is one of the best feelings ever. Maybe I won't have anything worth writing tomorrow, but today I can pretend that I can do this forever.

Best to shoot for the moon while you can. Afterward, you can look at your progress and say, "Wow, I wrote 10k words today!"

 

[Nether]

As I'm starting to get closer to finishing on BB worm (well, kinda -- there might be synopsis feedback that leads to edits, but I won't know what until I post the synopsis), I was thinking about my next project and... decided it probably won't be SOE.

Right now, I'm just not feeling all that engaged by SOE (YA serial killer). Although the voice is probably great for YA, it's strictly a thriller without any horror elements (although the killers themselves are kinda-superhuman) and I'm still going back & forth on giving the MC an adoptive sister (but it kinda muddies the whole relationship with the adoptive mother where her willingness to take him in is largely built on filling a void in her life, which wouldn't be feasible with a second child). On top of that, I'm not sure whether a romance subplot is feasible, which is the kiss of death. (Although maybe I could have the LI fulfill the same role as the adoptive sister... but the romantic component would mess with that. Unless... I do a fake-dating angle on his side. idk, suddenly have a lot to think about, which is why I love these topics.)

That said, I'm also kinda thinking about finally writing MN/Cursed Poem. The only tricky thing is I wanted to "show" some of the events associated with the prank, but another POV might be weird and if I gimmicked the MC into having visions, he might know too much. Otherwise, the brainstorming sandbox gave me a few great suggestions for the logistical issue.

Other project ideas include something with mutant moles (which is different from my previous mutant moles plan... although it'll use the name of a fantasy species I wanted to create)

Whatever the case, I kinda want a faster writing project.

 

[Jazz Club]

Right now, I'm just not feeling all that engaged by SOE (YA serial killer). Although the voice is probably great for YA, it's strictly a thriller without any horror elements (although the killers themselves are kinda-superhuman) and I'm still going back & forth on giving the MC an adoptive sister (but it kinda muddies the whole relationship with the adoptive mother where her willingness to take him in is largely built on filling a void in her life, which wouldn't be feasible with a second child).

Not necessarily unfeasible. Maybe she's always yearned for a male child. Or she doesn't get on with her daughter. Or feesl like the daughter is a screw-up and wants to try parenting again with a 'blank slate'. Or she just bonds with your MC. There are various ways to work it.

Other project ideas include something with mutant moles (which is different from my previous mutant moles plan... although it'll use the name of a fantasy species I wanted to create)

Mutant moles sound pretty cool!