We can't have PoC in our magical being-summoning video game because it's not realistic!

[ChaseJxyz]

[link]

The producer for Final Fantasy XVI, which is, you know, a fantasy game, had this to say when asked if PoC would be in it:

“Our design concept from the earliest stages of development has always heavily featured medieval Europe, incorporating historical, cultural, political, and anthropological standards that were prevalent at the time. [...] Ultimately, we felt that while incorporating ethnic diversity into Valisthea was important, an over-incorporation into this single corner of a much larger world could end up causing a violation of those narrative boundaries we originally set for ourselves. The story we are telling is fantasy, yes, but it is also rooted in reality.”

I see white people say all the time they can't have not-white people in their fantasy, as it's based on medieval Europe and it has to be REALISTIC! So that means white people only! Even though that's not true, at all, there has always been PoC in medieval Europe. So it's funny to see a Japanese guy falling for the same tired excuses.

In case you don't know anything about Final Fantasy, here's a bit about this specific game, from Wikipedia:

The Mothercrystals become focuses for later civilization, with six nations controlling Valisthea by the game's events.[6] A powerful force in Valisthea are the Eikons, magical creatures based on summoned monsters from the Final Fantasy series. The known Eikons – Phoenix, Shiva, Titan, Garuda, Leviathan, Bahamut, Odin and Ramuh – each represent one element and typically never fight each other. A seemingly-impossible second Eikon of fire, Ifrit, drives the main plot by disrupting this balance.[6][7][8]

Huh, Shiva, Garuda, Bahamut, Ramuh, and Ifrit, those don't sound like English names! Or even Japanese ones! I wonder where those come from...Well, it has to be from white medieval Europe, right? Because this game is so focused on being realistic in creating a historical, cultural, and anthropological-ly accurate depiction of white medieval Europe, they have to be using creatures from white medieval Europe. Like Odin! And the phoenix! (the Greeks count as white medieval Europeans, obviously, because they were civilized and also they're always white in all the movies I see set in ancient Greece). Or maybe these are made up things that only exist in Final Fantasy. It IS a really old series, after all.

Because it sure would be really silly of them to be appropriating fucking deities from very clearly not white medieval Europe into their game, so a white guy can summon and control them, and then be so concerned about realism to not bother putting in PoC. That can't possibly be what's going on here.

 

[zenithsky]

I guess just having white people was their final fantasy, huh?

Sigh. Blatant racism and cultural appropriation. Honestly I've heard Japan is really xenophobic so like...I guess that dude is fine with stealing stuff as long as no people are involved :|

 

[mint13]

From my time watching someone play the game, considering there is slavery in the story, I don't think the developers thought it was a good idea to have PoC as slaves or slave owners.

I was surprised by the inclusion of a gay character since no one had talked about it up to that point. They were a major character and it seemed like they were portrayed well. Though this comes from someone straight so I might not have caught something that someone from the LGBT+ community might have.

 

[Sonsofthepharaohs]

Greece / Italy / Spain = white mediaeval Europe. Predominantly. Yes POC existed (Turks, Moors etc) but those would be considered exceptions. Just in case we're trying to overlay any American perceptions of southern Europe as POC here.

But I agree the developer's answer makes no sense given the appropriation of non Mediaeval European elements into the game elsewhere.

 

[mccardey]

Yes POC existed (Turks, Moors etc) but those would be considered exceptions.

oh, my

 

[Sonsofthepharaohs]

I think I've finally answered the question about which post gets me banned. Carry on, folks. I'll show myself out.

 

[mccardey]

I think I've finally answered the question about which post gets me banned. Carry on, folks. I'll show myself out.

Self-crucifixion is an interesting choice for a hobby.

I haven't hit report post, in case you're wondering. (You should feel free to hit that for yourself, though.)

 

[Helix]

Greece / Italy / Spain = white mediaeval Europe. Predominantly. Yes POC existed (Turks, Moors etc) but those would be considered exceptions. Just in case we're trying to overlay any American perceptions of southern Europe as POC here.

The Umayyad Caliphate says hi.

 

[Unimportant]

Maybe there's just a lot of sunburnt people in all the artwork from the period.

 

[Sonsofthepharaohs]

I shall defer to others' superior knowledge of the period and keep my nose out of where it doesn't belong.

Please feel free to revert to the original topic of the thread.

 

[mccardey]

I shall defer to others' superior knowledge of the period and keep my nose out of where it doesn't belong.

Also please feel free to do research. Research is fun and also it can change how we see the world.

 

[Tocotin]

The Umayyad Caliphate says hi.

I think Sonsofthepharaos did mention Moors in the post you were referring to.

 

[mccardey]

I think Sonsofthepharaos did mention Moors in the post you were referring to.

as Exceptions.

But I think there's a lot to be said for not erasing PoC from Medieval Europe.

 

[Tocotin]

Yes POC existed (Turks, Moors etc) but those would be considered exceptions.

Turks in Europe were a much later addition, I think - after the fall of Constantinople?

 

[Tocotin]

as Exceptions.

But I think there's a lot to be said for not erasing PoC from Medieval Europe.

I don't think anyone wants to be erasing PoCs from Medieval Europe, because it's not possible. The Umayyad Caliphate was an exception in Europe though, because it controlled the part of the Iberian Peninsula as a conquered territory, and only briefly; same with the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans. Umayyads in Europe were just a blip on the radar, compared to Crimean Khanate for example or even Astrakhan Khanate, which were also way more diverse than Al-Andalus or whatever Western Europe had at that time.

But in European history, race issues are different than in the rest of the world (obviously, but...) and race is a much less important factor than religion and ethnicity. I remember how my friend (not from Europe) complained how in the Turkish drama, The Magnificent Century, all the sultans and their mothers and concubines and sons were "white". How could they be white? They were Muslims in the pre-modern Europe! But she didn't know that most concubines were white Circassian, Albanian, Ukrainian etc. slaves, and therefore sultans were mostly white...

For the Japanese game guys, Europe is just a handful of most recognizable Western countries to play around with, and has nothing to do with realism. At all.

 

[mccardey]

For the Japanese game guys, Europe is just a handful of most recognizable Western countries to play around with, and has nothing to do with realism. At all.

Much the same, I suppose, as non-Japan deals with Japan.

But my issue is with the idea being posited here in AW that PoC in Medieval Europe were
a) confined to Moors and Turks and
b) can - now? - be considered Exceptions. (By whom? Exceptions to what? What does it mean to be 'an exception'?)

My country was considered Terra Nullius during the colonial period and we were taught that for almost 200 years. An historical appellation does not necessarily speak to the fact, is my point.

Yes POC existed (Turks, Moors etc) but those would be considered exceptions.

If Lisa was still here, the spankings would be tremendous is all I'm saying.

 

[Tocotin]

But my issue is with the idea being posited here in AW that PoC in Medieval Europe were
a) confined to Moors and Turks and
b) can now be considered Exceptions. (By whom? Exceptions to what? What does it mean to be 'an exception'?)

They said "Moors, Turks etc.", so it doesn't look like PoCs were "confined" to these two groups. As to PoC being exceptions, I took it as them being minorities.

Maybe you could assume that there is no ill will, and if there are doubts, ask. Not just go "oh, my", because how one is supposed to answer to that?

 

[mccardey]

They said "Moors, Turks etc.", so it doesn't look like PoCs were "confined" to these two groups. As to PoC being exceptions, I took it as them being minorities.

Maybe you could assume that there is no ill will, and if there are doubts, ask. Not just go "oh, my", because how one is supposed to answer to that?

Well - you've managed.



I mean I could do that. I could assume good intentions. I used to. I suppose I sometimes feel the time for that is past, and its usually now more important to say No. No, I don't accept that premise. No, I will no longer cut you that much slack.

In return for which, I will be more generous with my time and energy in other areas.

That's where I am now. I no longer feel like etc is an acceptable historically non-dominant social grouping for people.

ETA: I blame Trump. And society. (But mostly Trump)

 

[Maryn]

Do we need a temporary lock for tempers to cool, or just a nice round of mimosas? (It's morning where I am. Whiskey in the morning is just wrong.)

I propose the mimosas, maybe with a plate of croissants and some butter already softened to spreadability.

We good? Of course we are. We are trying to be good people, at least while we're at AW.

Maryn, evil elsewhere

 

[Meg]

I hope this doesn't violate the spirit of Maryn's edict, I just thought folks (including bystanders trying to figure out what's going on here) might find this interesting reading:

Race, Racism, and the Middle Ages

This is particularly relevant:

Part XI: Where Do the "White Middle Ages" Come From?

 

[Maryn]

That's fine, Meg. Sharing what you know with other writers is part of the essence of this place, unless you preface it with the equivalent of In Your Face, Maryn!

 

[mccardey]

Do we need a temporary lock for tempers to cool, or just a nice round of mimosas?

Let me help you with that tray, Maryn.

@Sonsofthepharaohs , I probably shouldn't have reacted so quickly - it sounded like we'd wandered once again into Let's Erase People Of Colour From European History territory, and that's a nasty place to be in.

@Meg - your links aren't loading for me. Is it because I'm Australian?

 

[Unimportant]

@Meg - your links aren't loading for me. Is it because I'm Australian?

I expect so. They load okay for me! (I perfectly understand blaming any number of things on being Australian.)

 

[mccardey]

I expect so.

ETA: I'll give it a moment. Everything is loading slowing for me today. There must be a cloud or a bird or something in the sky again.

 

[Tiger1b]

I’m thinking that if the Square Enid guy is a Japanese National, working from a Japanese company in Japan, his view of White people in Final Fantasy VI and POC are going to differ from those of people in countries in which people of European descent are in the majority. It can be argued that White people, from the perspective of a Japanese national are POC.