the religious out take from Escape Artist's thread

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Shakesbear

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Richard thank you for explanation. Makes sense.
 

Amadan

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The argument that atheism is a faith, religion, or belief because it is a view on God, gods, or religion has shown up I don't know how many times in threads around here. It always seems to have a conceptual break in it.


Yeah, and you're more patient than I am. Oh, atheists take it on faith (gettit? gettit?) that God doesn't exist, and we're fish who can't see the ocean? WOW, MY MIND IS BLOWN! I HAVE NEVER HEARD THIS ARGUMENT BEFORE!
 

PeterD

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Not sure who said it, but to paraphrase someone else's description.

If atheism is a religion, then NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.

Some confusion might be the a part? This is not like a-car. Or a-banana. Or a-knife. Theism is a belief, we are not saying 'a theism'. The a means 'without'. So a-theism is not a belief. It is without belief.

a theism <> atheism.

Just like asexual, amoral, agnostic etc.
 

PeterD

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I think I understand. Thank you for explaining it. I used to teach Religious Education and was frequently asked by students if I believed in god. I always asked them to explain what they meant by 'god' so I could tell them if I believed in their concept. Very few were able to give me any explanation. One pupil did and he went on to get an A* in his exam. I confused them even further when they asked me what my religion was and I told them I was a Pantheistic Jew. Or a Jewish Pantheist.

If I was somehow in a position of not having to work for a living, I would love to go back to school and study religion.

So as a Jewish Pantheist, does that mean you believe that all the Gods society as presented really reference the same God (the God of Abraham). Or that all Gods exist?
 
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RichardGarfinkle

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Yeah, and you're more patient than I am. Oh, atheists take it on faith (gettit? gettit?) that God doesn't exist, and we're fish who can't see the ocean? WOW, MY MIND IS BLOWN! I HAVE NEVER HEARD THIS ARGUMENT BEFORE!

Yes. Well. You see we're all ignorant and don't understand about religion obviously.

Looking at those old threads reminds me of the Mansplaining threads going on in P&CE, but its Theistsplaining.

Anyway, I don't know how patient I am. I think I would have gone nuclear during some of those older threads.

Maybe we should see about getting a single page of explanations together and ask if they can be added to the sticky in the Atheism board.
 

Shakesbear

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If I was somehow in a position of not having to work for a living, I would love to go back to school and study religion.

Tempted to ask which one, or all of them. I enjoyed teaching the subject and got good results from my pupils which meant that they enjoyed learning. You do not have to go back to school to study though. See if there are Shuls, Masjids, Gurrwaras and/or temples in your area and visit them. Most will make you welcome, some may try to convert you. I did that when I lived in London and had a great time seeing the practices rather than reading about them.

So as a Jewish Pantheist, does that mean you believe that all the Gods society as presented really reference the same God (the God of Abraham). Or that all Gods exist?


I think that at varying times all gods existed in the minds and hearts of their followers. I would like to think, purely as a writer, that there is a Dwelling for Defunct Dieties somewhere.
 

PeterD

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I think that at varying times all gods existed in the minds and hearts of their followers. I would like to think, purely as a writer, that there is a Dwelling for Defunct Dieties somewhere.

A friend and I had a discussion once about religion. He was a former atheist who was moving in the other direction, towards belief.

His stance, which I thought was interesting but absurd all the same (hey, just being honest) was:

'If enough people believe in something, maybe it comes true?'
So if enough people believe in God, is God real?

I relate this to your 'existed in the hearts and minds'.

Certainly there might be an interested novel there on retired Gods!

As for study - visits. Just not the time. :( I settle for reading the occasional book.
 

Shakesbear

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LOL! Something sort of naively sweet about "So if enough people believe in God, is God real?" Could we try that please? If enough of us believe we are all going to get published and have runaway best sellers then it will be true!
 

PeterD

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LOL! Something sort of naively sweet about "So if enough people believe in God, is God real?" Could we try that please? If enough of us believe we are all going to get published and have runaway best sellers then it will be true!

I believe in you, there you go. :)
 

Shakesbear

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Thank you. I must try to get the book finished now :))
 

Rufus Coppertop

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If atheism is a religion, then NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.

Being militantly and enthusiastically anti-philatelic could actually be a kind of hobby.

It would depend on how much time and energy is devoted to it and whether or not one actually joins an anti-stamp-collecting organization.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Being militantly and enthusiastically anti-philatelic could actually be a kind of hobby.

It would depend on how much time and energy is devoted to it and whether or not one actually joins an anti-stamp-collecting organization.

True. But joining such a society would not necessarily imply that the joiner cares at all about stamps. They might just be annoyed at stamp-collectors talking about stamps all the time.

Then the pro stamp people will insist that the US postal service proves that America i
is an inherently philatelist nation. But the anti-stamp people will argue that one of the reasons for the American Revolution would be rebellion against the Stamp Act.

Meanwhile, the pro-stamp side is trying to pass laws against teaching about e-mail in schools. And objecting to the idea that 'social networking' is an acceptable medium of communication.

Etc, etc...
 
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Amadan

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Being militantly and enthusiastically anti-philatelic could actually be a kind of hobby.

It would depend on how much time and energy is devoted to it and whether or not one actually joins an anti-stamp-collecting organization.


True enough, there are militant atheists who make something of a cause of their atheism.

But most atheists are not particularly militant, but will get called that if they dare to contradict religious people about anything.
 

RJLeahy

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My problem is when people say you can't prove God, and then are bothered when religious types say, you can't disprove God. If it's scientific fact, you have to be able to do both.

Um, no. Claim of existence requires proof, not the opposite. If I claim leprechauns exist, then the onus is me to prove it.
 

Rufus Coppertop

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Um, no. Claim of existence requires proof, not the opposite. If I claim leprechauns exist, then the onus is me to prove it.

I think the onus is on the one making the claim, whether about existence or non-existence, if the one making the claim wants the one hearing the claim to adopt that belief or lack thereof.

If religionists come to your door, promoting religion, the onus is on the religionist.

If atheists come to my door, promoting atheism, the onus is on the atheist.
 

Rufus Coppertop

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True. But joining such a society would not necessarily imply that the joiner cares at all about stamps. They might just be annoyed at stamp-collectors talking about stamps all the time.

True.

But most atheists are not particularly militant, but will get called that if they dare to contradict religious people about anything.

Also frequently true.
 

RJLeahy

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I think the onus is on the one making the claim, whether about existence or non-existence, if the one making the claim wants the one hearing the claim to adopt that belief or lack thereof.

If religionists come to your door, promoting religion, the onus is on the religionist.

If atheists come to my door, promoting atheism, the onus is on the atheist.

Again, no. Not in science. The discussion was concerning how science operates, as opposed to religion. A claim of existence, in science, requires proof. An atheist, as I understand it, states that there is no physical proof of God (ie, that which can be measured, quantified or extrapolated by previous proven equations . What are its dimensions, mass, energy signature? Does it move? Then what is its method of locomotion, velocity,etc). And he expects, like any good scientist would, that it is the requirement of the person making such a claim to supply such data, or at least give some idea of the experiments that might prove or disprove such a claim.

The Higgs Boson is a good example. Sounded great; explained a lot about how the universe and fit in wonderfully with what was already known. As soon as Higgs proposed it, scientists said what they always say: now prove it.
 

Devil Ledbetter

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Not sure who said it, but to paraphrase someone else's description.

If atheism is a religion, then NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.
I love this. That is all.

LOL! Something sort of naively sweet about "So if enough people believe in God, is God real?" Could we try that please? If enough of us believe we are all going to get published and have runaway best sellers then it will be true!
"Do you believe in fairies? … If you believe clap your hands; don't let Tink die." - Peter Pan

Yes, very sweet.
 

Artifex

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I might even make the case that atheism is a-theism. A different view of God or god. Which makes atheism a faith too.

Atheism is not a faith. Just because atheism is a "view on god(s)", doesn't make it a faith. This argument is a bit like arguing that a non-smoker among smokers who says he is a non-smoker is actually kind of a smoker because he has a view on smoking. It's completely illogical.
 
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