The Numbers in Names of Kings, Queens, Popes

[Maryn]

I know that in exposition, you'd write King Louis XIV, Pope Benedict XIV, and Ptolemy XIV Philopator. (Why yes, I did spend a silly amount of time finding multiple people with the same number.) But people don't say XIV, they say the fourteenth.

So how should numbers in titles appear in dialogue? I have a line that involves Elizabeth I.

 

[Tocotin]

I would say Elizabeth the First.

 

[Elenitsa]

So would I.

 

[Brigid Barry]

Agree with "the first". Alt: Elizabeth Tudor.

Her grandmother was also Elizabeth Tudor but was known as Elizabeth of York so I don't think there'd be any confusion.

 

[neandermagnon]

Formal: Queen Elizabeth the first. / Queen Elizabeth the first of England.

Slightly less formal: Elizabeth the first. If the context is clear you can say Queen Elizabeth or just Elizabeth.

Informal: Queen Bess, Good Queen Bess (not that I think she was particularly good). Horrible Histories call her Liz the First and Good Queen Bess (see link below) Also they say Queen Liz Two for Elizabeth II. Things like "Liz one" and "Liz two" would be okay in an informal context when it's clear you're talking about monarchs.

Yes, this entire post was an excuse to post a link to the Horrible Histories monarch song which is great fun.

If someone is literally reading "Elizabeth I" then you could read that as Elizabeth one or Elizabeth the first, the latter being the safer bet in academic circles.

ETA: it's not letting me post the link without turning it into an embedded video

Let me try this way.

ETA#2: it worked

 

[Chris P]

I agree that "the first" reflects spoken speech. I'll be the overly pedantic person in the room and say it's not necessary if it's already clear which one is referenced. "I tracked Queen Elizabeth's funeral flight on FlightRadar24" shouldn't need "the second." I also know all of us know better, but there is no need for "the first" in a period piece/historical when "the second" hasn't happened yet.

[Smiles smugly in empty self-satisfaction.]

 

[Maryn]

Okay, we seem to agree the person speaking would say Elizabeth the first. Capital F or lower case?

 

[Chris P]

Okay, we seem to agree the person speaking would say Elizabeth the first. Capital F or lower case?

I have run out of empty self-satisfaction to smile smugly in.

I think it's capital F, but only because it's part of her name or title, like capital Q in Queen.

 

[JudiH]

They might also say the first Elizabeth if it's clear from other dialog that royalty is involved.

Otherwise I agree with Chris P, Elizabeth the First.

 

[anaemic_mind]

My copy of The New Oxford Style Manual states:
'...the style Henry the Eighth is an acceptable alternative to figures [e.g. Henry VIII] in running text.'

So, yep it's fine and capitalise.

 

[Fergus MacGuffin]

My copy of The New Oxford Style Manual states:
'...the style Henry the Eighth is an acceptable alternative to figures [e.g. Henry VIII] in running text.'

So, yep it's fine and capitalise.

You just had to evoke Herman's Hermits, didn't you?

I'm Henry the eighth, I am
Henry the eighth, I am, I am
I got married to the widow next door
She's been married seven times before
And every one was an Henry (Henry)
She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam (no Sam)
I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry
Henry the eighth, I am

 

[Maryn]

(I saw him perform it live, at an oldies show some time ago. He's quite the showman still.)

 

[Chris P]

(I saw him perform it live, at an oldies show some time ago. He's quite the showman still.)

Me as well, about twelve years ago. He was a great sport--He was at a casino, performing in the area behind the bar with people who wanted drinks muscling up through the Baby Boomers with "Noonatic" hats and albums to sign. He said "Back in the Sixties, all my friends wanted to play Shea Stadium, Golden Gate Park . . . But not me. I wanted to play . . . behind the bar . . . at the Oneida Casino . . . in Green Bay . . . my dreams are now complete."

Since we're on this, the performer of "They're coming to take me away, ha ha" Napoleon IV, pronounced the IV as separate letters: "Napoleon eye-vee"

 

[Maryn]

Really? The Small Small World music is too loud in here.

Maryn, snorting at "eye-vee"

 

[frimble3]

Really? The Small Small World music is too loud in here.

Maryn, snorting at "eye-vee"

The Napoleon IV sounds like a medical term for pumping painkillers into a seriously injured person: "Don't worry, in a couple of minutes you'll feel like you can take on the world!"
Aside: "Watch him, nurse, in a couple of minutes he'll think he can stand unassisted. Have someone standing by to stop him!"

 

[mccardey]

I know that in exposition, you'd write King Louis XIV, Pope Benedict XIV, and Ptolemy XIV Philopator. (Why yes, I did spend a silly amount of time finding multiple people with the same number.) But people don't say XIV, they say the fourteenth.

So how should numbers in titles appear in dialogue? I have a line that involves Elizabeth I.

The only one I know for sure is Liz 10

 

[Chris P]

Nobody ever talks about Malcolm the First through Malcolm the Ninth. Malcolm X gets all the attention.

 

[JudiH]

You just had to evoke Herman's Hermits, didn't you?

I'm Henry the eighth, I am
Henry the eighth, I am, I am
I got married to the widow next door
She's been married seven times before
And every one was an Henry (Henry)
She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam (no Sam)
I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry
Henry the eighth, I am

"Second verse, same as the first!"

If this gets stuck in my head for the next two weeks, I may have to make you a very bad minstrel in the WIP and have you chased out into the deep mindwinter snow...

 

[CMBright]

"Second verse, same as the first!"

If this gets stuck in my head for the next two weeks, I may have to make you a very bad minstrel in the WIP and have you chased out into the deep mindwinter snow...

That gave me a chuckle.

 

[Maryn]

We all love those Freudian typos.