The 'Novel Series' Thread

[E.G. Gammon]

Seriously, how many modern series in your chosen genre end on cliffhangers without resolving the story?

There's nothing wrong with proposing something unique. I'd rather it take a couple years to find a publisher the way the story is, than give in to "the rules" and write a story that's a format "just like everyone else's." I believe in the story and its sell-a-bility. If I wasn't confident it would sell, I wouldn't have devoted more than seven years to it...

 

[Christine N.]

When you say 'editor' do you mean that you've sold your 1st book and the publisher's editor is now engaged in the revision process?

If not, who's the editor?

Thanks

.

Nah, this one hasn't been sold yet, but my publisher (see signature) has right of first refusal for my next two books. Assuming that they want it (which, if I may say, it's pretty damn good)I'm talking about their editor.

If, for some reason they don't want it, then whomever I do sell it to.

 

[E.G. Gammon]

When you write a series, or in my case, a big old fantasy, you tend to live with the characters you create for a long time. I'm not worried about moving on or such in life because these characters are there and deserve to have thier stories told before I go.

I agree. If a writer gets tired of an idea, it shouldn't be finished in the first place. No one wants to read a story a writer finished because they got sick of writing it. The best ideas writers have are the ones they could spend the rest of their lives writing - the stories that are as exciting to write years into them as they were when the stories began.

 

[E.G. Gammon]

A GREAT quote from a review by Amazon.com about an epic fantasy novel series:

"Readers of epic fantasy series are: (1) patient--they are left in suspense between each volume, (2) persistent--they reread or at least review the previous book(s) when a new installment comes out, (3) strong--these 700-page doorstoppers are heavy, and (4) mentally agile--they follow a host of characters through a myriad of subplots."


Also if you are worried about killing off many main characters, another reviewer (not an official review from Amazon.com, but a pretty good one) posted this:

"One of the things that I haven't liked about fantasy as a genre is its near [adulteration] of the taboo on killing off main characters. Seeing one of my favorites bite the dust was interesting, because it was then that I found out that I was rooting for him and that I cared. Not having the power over life and death (other than with side characters) [usually makes] for wooden settings and scenarios. And while that in and of itself is the genre, and some writers have written great pieces within its constraints, for the better part, it is what has cheapened the genre and made it on par with romance and cheeseball sci-fi." (I agree)

E.G.

 

[zornhau]

There's nothing wrong with proposing something unique. I'd rather it take a couple years to find a publisher the way the story is, than give in to "the rules" and write a story that's a format "just like everyone else's." I believe in the story and its sell-a-bility. If I wasn't confident it would sell, I wouldn't have devoted more than seven years to it...

There are rules and there are rules.

I would avoid breaking the ones relating to the implicit contract with the reader.

It's like Rock and Roll. If you use 5 minor chords, and play in 15/6 time, it's still music, but it ain't Rock and Roll, so don't expect people to boogie or jive.

If you throw off the rules which define a traditional novel (e.g. beginning, middle, end, coherant story, conflict, main story question set and resolved), then - yes, you are being clever, but you're messing with the things which motivate the reader to read the book in the first place.

A reader wants to be surprised, teased even. However, I suspect that artificial ploys to keep them reading, such as ending early so as to defer the resolution to the next volume, will just be seen at best as smart-*** tricks, and, at worst, lazy and cynical devices.

However, for all I know, you may well be onto a literary masterpiece, so I will trouble you no more on this.

 

[E.G. Gammon]

There are rules and there are rules.

I would avoid breaking the ones relating to the implicit contract with the reader.

It's like Rock and Roll. If you use 5 minor chords, and play in 15/6 time, it's still music, but it ain't Rock and Roll, so don't expect people to boogie or jive.

If you throw off the rules which define a traditional novel (e.g. beginning, middle, end, coherant story, conflict, main story question set and resolved), then - yes, you are being clever, but you're messing with the things which motivate the reader to read the book in the first place.

A reader wants to be surprised, teased even. However, I suspect that artificial ploys to keep them reading, such as ending early so as to defer the resolution to the next volume, will just be seen at best as smart-*** tricks, and, at worst, lazy and cynical devices.

However, for all I know, you may well be onto a literary masterpiece, so I will trouble you no more on this.

We'll just agree to disagree then...

 

[maestrowork]

Just write it.

Then you can decide if it's a genius piece of work, or just literary drivel. But only AFTER you're done with it.

And if you don't care about what the readers think, you can't blame them for not buying...

 

[Lenora Rose]

First, In the far far middle of the night, I finally recalled the term I was groping for for a Non-standalone Limited Series, which is Serial Novel.

EGGammon, it seems to me that you're thinking too much about the exceptions in publishing, and not enough about the standard.

Yes, Susanna Clarke published a first novel over 800 pages where one of the title characters doesn't really get involved until after page 200. That doesn't mean one shouldn't shoot for the range that's currently selling best in your chosen genre.

Yes, Stephen King (And someone else in the same genre did the same very shortly thereafter), released serial chapbooks instead of a single solid novel. And others have first sold novels as serials in Asimov's magazine and the like (as recently as last year). That doesn't mean an unknown will have enough draw to warrant a risky move like that.

Yes, people have published all kinds of Serial novels, and I'm sure you could find one in the last 5 years that was released by a new author if you tried. Again, that doesn't make it any more advisable.

Uncle Jim made a remark once to the effect that, while most of us are sturggling to get downhill on our skis without falling into a snowbank, once in a while someone is spotted heading uphill on an ironing board and making it look easy.

Doesn't mean you're the one. (Doesn't mean you aren't, either. But that's not the way I'd bet - not just on you, but on anyone. Even Stephen King falls on his face when he tries marketing styles the market won't bear. Remember his e-book effort?)


We keep suggesting that you just go ahead and write and finish the book, and worry about the sales afterward. And you keep agreeing - then asking about whether format X would fit better, in ways which imply that you're more concerned with fiddling with the format now, than BIC and writing another word. Too many of these questions sound more and more like stalling on just finishing the project.

Go with your first instinct. Stop overanalyzing what isn't written. Except in one way - look for a way to make book one feel complete on its own, even if the rest never can.

Maybe read the books of a Limited Series (Standalone) out of order, to see how or why they bear up even with a linked story arc.

 

[DaveKuzminski]

Well, I can certainly understand where both sides are coming from as I've been in both positions. Presently, I'm working on a series that has expanded well beyond the single short story I first wrote which then became a novel.

I've gone for having the first book work as a standalone. I've not enforced that fully within the series. A number of the books can stand on their own, but well over half are into indefinite territory since there are different main characters in different parts of the world. There are plot resolutions, but enough things come into play that are not that those form the basis for a later book. In fact, trying to tie down those sub-elements is what caused the proliferation in the first place. When I mentioned the threat of black blades in the first book, I had to write a book dealing with those just to satisfy myself but didn't reach that until about the fifth book.

Anyway, if you get the first book accepted by a publisher, your odds do go up considerably for getting the series accepted. Currently, I'm working with an editor on the first book that a publisher accepted and looking forward to when we go over the other sixteen so I can get this out there. As well, I'm halfway through writing the eighteenth of the series and it appears that there might be one or two more remaining even though I'm eager to shut it down so I can work on some other unrelated ideas.

 

[E.G. Gammon]

Ok, I'll throw THIS out for discussion:

What if a novel series begins with a stand-alone novel (average "first novel" length - around 80,000 words) and then after that, the rest of the books are longer (over 100,000) and end with cliffhangers?

 

[maestrowork]

It's up to your publisher, but yeah, why not? Especially if your book sells millions and you have a huge fan base.

 

[LightShadow]

Ok, I'll throw THIS out for discussion:

What if a novel series begins with a stand-alone novel (average "first novel" length - around 80,000 words) and then after that, the rest of the books are longer (over 100,000) and end with cliffhangers?

Whatever works. Hell, a friend of mine wrote a stand alone without "series" even entering his mind. The publisher liked it so much, the contract was for 3 books, with the main character of the first book as the star of the other two. In that case, it was the publisher that decided it should be a series.

 

[Lenora Rose]

Ok, I'll throw THIS out for discussion:

What if a novel series begins with a stand-alone novel (average "first novel" length - around 80,000 words) and then after that, the rest of the books are longer (over 100,000) and end with cliffhangers?

That would be why I only said "look for a way to make book one feel complete on its own, even if the rest never can."

And Uncle Jim said something similar on the first page.

 

[LightShadow]

All of my books are stand alone, yet have the opportunity to become a series if called upon to do so. That's my stance on it, anyway.

 

[Mark]

EG, I went the opposite way, so I really lke reading this thread and your other posts.

A few years ago I decided to write a book. 10 guys, one week, one shore house. Each had their own conflict and their stories were shuffled all together since they were all friends staying in the same house for that week. It turned out to be 330,000 words when I finished it.

Now you know, no one is going to publish this book since I have never been published. It's too long for an unproven author. Agents have let me know in their rejections.

So, now I am toying with breaking it down like your novel series. However, the question is how? Ten books, one for each character? That would have a lot of overlapping scenes in each book since all the characters interact. There are two guys who were twin brothers, so I tried pulling their story out as a stand alone. The problem is that the next book would have a lot of the same scenes, even if they are from different perspectives. Would the reader enjoy this or hate the repitition?

Seven books, one for each day? Not every day is a stand alone book and many resoultions don't occur to the last two days.

I even thought of changing it to a screen play for a TV series for a station like HBO, but my lack of screenwriting talent and odds against getting it read deter me.

So, since you are coming from one direction (starting a novel series) and I am coming from the other (breaking down a novel), I like reading this thread. I am curious about reading these series discussions. If anyone has any advice, please give it because right now this book is just a file on my laptop collecting e-dust.

In the meantime, I am working on getting two YA novels published (sports and detective) I am hoping to use them as a stepping stone into the industry. Also, my WIP is similar, but only five characters on a pub crawl and it's only for one day (3/4 of the way done). Maybe this can help me get my foot in the door when I finish it.

 

[katdad]

A LOT of work ahead!

I am still in the development stages. I have passages written, but no "one" book is complete. The story is very complex and I've come to the point where I need to write out a detailed outline of the story and make sure everything fits and nothing contradicts something else. My series has 80+ characters and a plan of seven huge novels. I need a detailed outline before going any further. I'm still deciding if I should write all seven novels BEFORE I submit to an agent. Since the books aren't standalone, a publisher may want to release each book in the series close to each other.

I plan to write another book and try to get THAT published before I propose my huge series. I have better chances that way.

Let me see if I understand --- you're writing a series of 7 novels, all linked, with 80 characters, and none of the books stands alone?

And you haven't yet finished any one book?

I hope you plan to live a long time and have several devoted children so they can keep your manuscripts online and read them from time to time.

I would recommend that you actually FINISH something before working on other things.

And if you, say, finish one or 2 books, what can you submit to an agent? If the books are linked such that no single stands alone, it may be zero to impossible to get anyone's attention.

Maybe you're better off putting them on your website and just let people read them for free, because no agent or publisher will EVER consider buying this from a non-established newbie.

What is your publishing history? and by that, I mean PAID stuff that you were actually paid real money for things that you wrote? Reason I ask is that you may be setting yourself up for a long fall into disappointment.

 

[katdad]

Ok, I'll throw THIS out for discussion:

What if a novel series begins with a stand-alone novel (average "first novel" length - around 80,000 words) and then after that, the rest of the books are longer (over 100,000) and end with cliffhangers?

I'm not sure if you would be able to keep folks buying them (or, before this, a publisher interested in buying it from you!)

There are cliffhangers and cliff-danglers. If you tell a 'complete' story in 1 novel yet set up unresolved details and continuing threads that may be resolved later, that's okay.

But if the central plot continues FOREVER then you'll irritate the readers (and more important, you won't have readers because no publisher will buy the books in the first place)

For example -- in my "Mitch King Mystery" series, I tell a central story about a missing runaway trophy wife and how it ends up in a brutal murder. That story is resolved in "Sudden Storm" but there are also ongoing themes and stories about my main characters that are not close to being resolved.

My principal character is beset with insecurity and angst about his failed life -- he's blown a career and a marriage and most of his friends off -- and he isn't getting better.

He's knotted up with guilt and personal self-doubt and cannot come to grips with his persona. This leads him to act rashly and he gets himself into deep trouble with the law, with his best pals, and with his life.

The central plot of the murder and missing wife is resolved, but the ongoing personal problems of the protag are just beginning.

Therefore I tell a 'complete' story but also keep the reader interested (or I hope to) because the reader has 'invested' personal interest in the protag and hopefully wants to see how he resolves his crisis (or fails to) in the next book.

If you don't resolve certain plot issues within each book, you're gonna send the readers screaming off into the night... honest.

 

[B.L. Robinson]

I am currently working on a fantasy series with at least ten books in it. But I made sure that each book can stand on its own, leaving just enough open to lure the reader in to buying the next one! I have the outlines all laid out, and my cast of characters. I try to work on each book a little bit every month, other than the main one that I am writing. (I have a bit of the rebel in me and insist on being different, I am told!)

Right now, I am still writing for myself, just to get the stories out of my head and onto the computer. Once I start seeing things that arent there in the manuscript, I print it out and bind it myself into a 6x9 for proofreading purposes. It is amazing how much more I see when I am reading it like a "normal" book!

Bruce

 

[LightShadow]

Ought we not just worry about one book at a time. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

 

[B.L. Robinson]

I thrive on the stress, Doug. I plan on writing the last word and exploding into little pieces. And I really don't worry about any of them, it is so much fun writing that I could care less about selling them at this point in time. If they get picked up, fine, if not I will buy a ISBN and a bar code and bind and sell them myself! I can never afford to retire any way, so might as well be doing something that I enjoy, right?

Bruce

 

[LightShadow]

I agree to a point, Bruce, and I love to write so much that when I was in the U.S. Navy when I wasn't on watch or working, I could always be found in my rack with a spiral binder writing away. Now that I am oh, so much older, when I'm not at work, or out with my gal, I'm writing. Thing is, what I am describing is larger projects and the tedious task of re-reading and re-writing and fixing and formatting and copyediting and such. It's basically done line by line, and it can be overwhelming, and that is why I stress patience and ease. Take care of it one word at a time, and if you do it right, then you will be selling them and retiring as a full time writer and such.

 

[E.G. Gammon]

What if my novel series began with a stand-alone novel, that's focus is on 10 of the 80 main characters throughout my complex series, then Book Two suddenly shifts focus on not only those 10 characters, but the rest of them as well, for the rest of the seven non-standalone novels of the series? Is that sudden shift of focus a good idea?

The reason why the series is structured that way now, is because the novel that's focus is only on 10 of the main characters was to be the prequel, which has now been reworked to be the first novel of the series so the series can have the first book be a stand-alone.

 

[gusdigger]

My Gus Digger series

Does anyone know of an agenmt looking to repesenta writer wwith 3 Crime dramas set in detroit. I allso have them published as e-book. can someone recomend an aggency?

 

[lucidzfl]

Two potential responses:

1. Holy undead thread revival batman!

2. May I recommend a spell checker?

 

[Stormhawk]

This is...some pretty impressive thread necromancy.