The existence of a higher power: fact or fiction?

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James81

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Might as well start at the beginning, right?

Do you believe in a god? Which god do you believe in and why?

Do you think there are any proofs to his existence, and if so can you lay them out there?

Is it POSSIBLE to prove the existence of a god?
 

Bartholomew

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I believe in a God of sorts; I think it is an impartial creature, much like we might be to an ant hill, but that we're ultimately the by-product of something greater. I believe this because I see a natural organizing power in the world. Cells and organelles, bodies and organs, planets and stars -- to me, these are all the same basic formation of smaller life (?) forms serving larger ones. Additionally, I see a correlation between the way the cells of a life form organize themselves and the way life forms organize themselves - it is easy to compare blood cells to postal workers, white blood cells to police and soldiers, and muscle cells to a consumer market. That single cells living in complex life forms organize themselves is amazing to me, and in my mind, is indicative of some phenomena or entity just beyond the veil of our perceptions, causing everything.

I don't think I can prove this, and I don't think there is any pressing reason for me to prove it, or to even defend it, should someone call it bullcrap.

I think that, if any sort of god exists, that we'll eventually be able to conclusively prove it. If, however, he does not, I don't think we'll ever be able to disprove it.
 

Reilly616

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No. There probably isn't a god. There's no evidence for the existence of a god and there never has been. 93% of the world's leading scientists are atheists, so I think it's a pretty safe bet :D
 

Reilly616

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I think that, if any sort of god exists, that we'll eventually be able to conclusively prove it. If, however, he does not, I don't think we'll ever be able to disprove it.


This is entirely true. It is impossible to prove a negative. We can't prove there are no Unicorns, only that we have never found any evidence for Unicorns. Still... it'd be stupid to believe in them :)
 

Bartholomew

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This is entirely true. It is impossible to prove a negative. We can't prove there are no Unicorns, only that we have never found any evidence for Unicorns. Still... it'd be stupid to believe in them :)

Oh, I dunno. If I was a traveler in the ancient world, and I saw this, I might have trouble describing it. After the fifth or sixth person had related my story, it is feasible that they would be seeing this in their minds.

That said, I do not think believing in fairies, unicorns, or God is stupid. The thought that, somewhere, a fairy is tending a garden gives me great joy. The thought, "Magic doesn't exist. Thinking magical things is stupid." makes me pretty damn sad.

Real Fairies Tending a Garden. :)
 
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Reilly616

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Oh, I dunno. If I was a traveler in the ancient world, and I saw this, I might have trouble describing it. After the fifth or sixth person had related my story, it is feasible that they would be seeing this in their minds.

That said, I do not think believing in fairies, unicorns, or God is stupid. The thought that, somewhere, a fairy is tending a garden gives me great joy. The thought, "Magic doesn't exist. Thinking magical things is stupid." makes me pretty damn sad.

Real Fairies Tending a Garden. :)

Good point in the first paragraph. I'd have to disagree with the second though :D I find science to be "magical" enough. :D
 

leontay

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'Unicorn' found in Tuscany wildlife park

Many legends have a base in reality. (Or bronze age prophets getting high. Or drunken dreams. :p)

As for a higher power, my biology degree tells me religion is evolution's way of passing cultural values and restrictions down the generations to protect ourselves and our habitat. If there is something bigger, I'd need evidence.

I think it is an impartial creature, much like we might be to an ant hill, but that we're ultimately the by-product of something greater. I believe this because I see a natural organizing power in the world.

Makes you wonder if the billion+ stars that make up our galaxy that is part of the billion+ galaxies that make up our universe are just all some pseudo-electron/neutrino hurtling through another, infinitely bigger universe that's organised in a similar manner.
 

Bartholomew

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Makes you wonder if the billion+ stars that make up our galaxy that is part of the billion+ galaxies that make up our universe are just all some pseudo-electron/neutrino hurtling through another, infinitely bigger universe that's organised in a similar manner.

That's where my logic has led me, at any rate. :)
 

StephanieFox

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Why does this have to be an either/or answer. Perhaps it's a paradox. Perhaps it's a Zen Cohen.

I figure that god is moot. He or she or it is not going to fix the troubles in the world. That's up to us.
 

Ruv Draba

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Humans don't all agree on what a god is, but notable among the characteristics of divinity are supernatural agency and absolute moral authority. 'Supernatural agency' I understand to mean stuff that's not understandable by investigation, only (if at all) by myth; 'absolute moral authority' I understand to mean having the final authority to say how people should behave, think, feel, relate.

I'm an atheist because I reject both supernatural agency and external moral authority -- though I think either one would make an atheist of me.

The only arguments I've seen for supernatural agency are based on myth -- i.e, received and unquestioned lore. I've never found a definition of godhood that resides outside some mythic foundation, and outside mythic arguments for godhood there seem to be no arguments at all.

Regardless though, for humanitarian reasons I think that it's very important that adults retain final responsibility for their decisions. I support being inspired and advised by others we respect, and even being inspired by myth; I don't support submitting to an external final authority (mythic or otherwise) on matters of morality. Our history is full of exploitation, regression, xenophobia and humanitarian abuses conducted under just such submission; I don't believe that it's conducive to human development.

All that said, I know people who gain great comfort from belief in supernatural agency and the idea of ultimate moral submission. That comfort is very important to them. I don't know that morally, the value of comfort outweighs the importance of truth or self-responsibility, but given how cruel our world can sometimes be and how powerless we sometimes are, I'm not entirely confident that it doesn't either.
 
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Calla Lily

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I knew this would happen. At least it's sooner rather than later. :D

Is there a God? I say unequivocally Yes.

Can I show anyone quantitative proof? No.

And that's why I usually avoid religion discussions. Yet I can bring together half-a-dozen of my friends and we can tell each other our first-hand encounters with one or more of the faces of God.
 

stormie

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Okay. I'm game.

My older sister was very ill a few years ago. She was the type of person who was well-grounded, not fanciful, and prayed. She was more of a liberal Catholic, if there is such a group.

The crash cart was brought in to her hospital room twice. Some know it as Code Blue. Some as First Response. She was dying/dead.

The first time she had what she called an "interesting experience." She found herself in a brilliantly lit area of hills with buildings in the distance. She was scared at first. Several "people" came over to her and told her "It's not your time, and what we're going to tell you, you won't remember."

The second time, a week later, she found herself there again, but not scared. She felt she went deeper into this "area." She said she saw the stars and planets and then heard, "I am God. There is a God."

I said, "Of course you knew that!"

She shrugged her shoulders. (Remember, she was very ill, being poked and prodded in the hospital for weeks, so she probably was questioning.)

She never wavered in the retelling of those two experiences.

Yes. I believe there is a Supreme Being some of us call God.
 

Fade

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Do you believe in a god? Which god do you believe in and why?

Yes, I do. I really just do because my parents did (they took me to church when I was a little kid), so it's kind of ingrained in my brain. I've never really questioned His existence because I've always felt that there had to be something more, and that this wasn't it. As in, is your life all that you get? I think that human beings have always hoped for more as in terms of eternal life in paradise or a purpose to their life. This has been going back before there were even monotheistic religions, to the beginning of civilization. Humans need to believe in higher power(s).

Also, I do not believe that any technology could prove or disprove the existence, and some people will always tell stories that they consider miracles but others consider easily explainable by science. You just believe, or you don't.
 

stormie

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You just believe, or you don't.
Not necessarily. My sister was a firm believer, but when put to the test, she questioned (and I paraphrase), where are you God? Is there a God? Her experience strengthened her faith that there is a Supreme Being.

As a child, we'll believe what we're told. As an adult, we question as well as seek answers.
 

Samantha's_Song

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Yes.
Do you believe in a god?


There can be only one God, each religion might call him a different name, but it's still one and the same.
Which god do you believe in and why?


Why should anyone need proof? If I said I loved someone, I couldn't show you proof of that either, it's just something I know, something I feel deep within my own being.

I don't actually belong to any religion, I never have done, but I've always felt something going on that is far removed from this world. I have a few stories that makes me know there is more to life than just living on this earth.
When I was 15, my 7 yr old sister died of leukaemia. I cried and cried for 6 weeks, then out of the blue I had a dream about her... Our back garden wasn't there anymore, it was an old dusty track. All of a sudden these Hindu ladies, all dressed in red and gold, came down the track and they had my sister with them, she was sitting atop of an Elephant. The strange thing is, she was in her hospital gown, although she actually died at home. I got her down from the Elephant, took her indoors and sat her atop of the dining table. She told me not to cry for her anymore, that she was happy where she was. I knew this to be true and never did cry over her again.
To me, I was dreaming of Hindu ladies. Why? I didn't actually know anything about Hinduism at the time, but it made me start reading into it and it was a philosophy I could believe in. Remember, a rebelious teenager isn't going to start going to church all of a sudden, so I saw it as a message from god; he knew I could take some solace out of something that would interest me and make me stronger at the same time.

Also, ever since I was 7 yrs old, I knew I had lived on this earth before, in the Orient. I always used to laugh and tell everyone that I was related to Ghengis Khan. The strange thing to that is, years later I was to find out that GK invaded Poland, and since my paternal side of the family came from there, it was like another sig. As I believe we come back through our family blood lines.

When I was in my 20', I had a memory, it wasn't a dream, I was wide awake and watching Coronation street lol. But I remembered dying of a gunshot wound in France, in the first world war; this is why the first world war and France is so dear to my heart. I could picture the scene vividly, I still can, I can still smell the fresh grass and the rosehips from the field where I lay dying.

No one can ever take these things away from me, and through these things, and others that I could tell, but it's so late here, I know there is something out there that is much higher than us, and the sscientists.
Do you think there are any proofs to his existence, and if so can you lay them out there?


Why do we need to, or is it just to prove to the disbelievers that there is?
And as for scientists trying to disprove god at every chance, some of their theories can be explained in the Biblical sense too. For instance, the scientists tell us about the ice age and everything dying, like the dinosaurs. In the Biblical term, the ice age would have been the forty days and nights of rain. The scientists tell us we come from monkeys, the Bible tells us that god made us all out of the earth, so of course we'd all have dna that was more or less the same.
Is it POSSIBLE to prove the existence of a god?
 

Fade

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Not necessarily. My sister was a firm believer, but when put to the test, she questioned (and I paraphrase), where are you God? Is there a God? Her experience strengthened her faith that there is a Supreme Being.

As a child, we'll believe what we're told. As an adult, we question as well as seek answers.

I think you misunderstood me. I don't mean that you always believe what you did as a child; I believe that can change. What I meant is that when people who believe in any higher power are asked to prove the existence of it, they normally can't. They just believe, even though there's no proof. And people who don't believe don't because even though there's no proof that higher powers don't exist.
 

Bartholomew

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There can be only one God, each religion might call him a different name, but it's still one and the same.

Why can there be only one god? Why can't there be many? The ancient Greeks saw gods behind almost everything, and they were all distinct in personality-- many of them even warred. Athena and Poseidon, for instance, were always at odds. Zeus openly voiced his distaste for Ares.

Why was this view wrong?
 

AMCrenshaw

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There can be only one God, each religion might call him a different name, but it's still one and the same.

I would be careful not to speak for other people's religions-- not all the gods are alike, even now, and we shouldn't assume they are.

AMC
 

AMCrenshaw

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Why should anyone need proof? If I said I loved someone, I couldn't show you proof of that either, it's just something I know, something I feel deep within my own being.

It is quite hard to test sincerity, but I wonder if it isn't impossible. Isn't it possible, though, to observe what we call "love" whereas it's literally impossible to observe gods? By that I mean we might have a clear definition of what phenomena constitute as "love", and then be able observe effects which are unique to our definition of "love". Then consider "gods"...



AMC
 
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poetinahat

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Not to be argumentative (especially as a blow-in to this conversation), but the thread title implies two options: Fact and Fiction.

The premise of my professed religion is neither of those: it's Faith.
 

Bartholomew

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Not to be argumentative (especially as a blow-in to this conversation), but the thread title implies two options: Fact and Fiction.

The premise of my professed religion is neither of those: it's Faith.

Define faith.

The mystic faith of Christianity is different from the faith one develops in a good mechanic, right?

I can say, "God exists, that's Fact" or "God exists, that's Fiction," -- but if I say, "God exists, that's Faith," the idea I'm expressing doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

##
 

AMCrenshaw

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The premise of my professed religion is neither of those: it's Faith.

The conviction of things unseen.

Which of course lends itself to other discussions, such as, but how did these things unseen enter into our hearts? Fact or fiction?

AMC


ETA Buddhists have a word that often transliterates to "faith", but refers more to "devotion" or "discipline".
 
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poetinahat

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Define faith.

The mystic faith of Christianity is different from the faith one develops in a good mechanic, right?

I can say, "God exists, that's Fact" or "God exists, that's Fiction," -- but if I say, "God exists, that's Faith," the idea I'm expressing doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

##
This, my friend, is a semantic conundrum. A statement of Faith is *not* a statement of Fact, nor of Fiction; hence, it wouldn't make sense to say, "God exists, that's Faith".

The act of having Faith doesn't cause Facts to happen. People may argue that the power of Faith influences events, but that in itself is a matter of Fact, Fiction, or Faith, depending on whom you ask. It seems a bit recursive, and therefore possibly unanswerable.

ETA Buddhists have a word that often transliterates to "faith", but refers more to "devotion" or "discipline".

Very interesting - I hadn't heard that!
 
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