Talking to a homosexual

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little_e

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"In the sequal, I want a discussion of homosexuality."
Why this particular discussion? If the 'living together' worked for the first book, why not something related, like 'sex other than for procreation' for this one?

"No arrogance, no anger, but with each side communicating logic and self-confidence."
How can this work, when, based on your description, one or the other, (maybe both) are troublemakers trying to start a fight? This is not a discussion that two calm, logical people would have, not with each other. If each one knows that the other has a firmly opposite opinion, polite people do not start 'logical discussions' on the disputed subject in a conversational context.
This is something you do to score points, needle or browbeat your opponent, or make them look bad. Unless you're at a public debate or liquored up.
Non-religious example: you do not stand in front of your father-in-law's gun case, looking at his trophies, eating the barbecued game he hunted, telling him there should be a total ban on gun ownership, and expect the evening to go well.
Wait, you don't?

I could seriously actually see this happening between my dad and my husband. And the evening turning out fine, because my dad's a pretty mellow guy.

And while I myself don't self-identify as gay, I have many close friends who do and whom I care about deeply, and yet I've had very reasonable, logical conversations of this sort with my deeply conservative former talk-radio host uncle, which bystanders claimed were interesting both for their content and for the fact that we were perfectly polite all the way through.

For the OP, basically, my uncle believes that homosexuality is a social construct/influenced by a lack of suitable male role models in early childhood. (He backs this up with studies from the seventies and eighties. Nothing newer, because the PC police won't let folks do studies which might cast homosexuality in a negative light.) Basically, improperly raised kids are more susceptible to bad ideas and confused about proper gender roles.

Me, I go more with a biological explanation, though of course social construction enters into anything so complicated as personal self-identity.
 

areteus

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Secondly, the exclusion of homosexuals from the faith is not and never has been a foundation of Christianity. I USED (emphasis on used) to believe that it was. I believe that I was very loudly and firmly corrected by God. The foundation of Christianity is salvation and Christ, yes? So how can it be a freedom of religion issue, if the thing in question is a secondary factor? If you believe it is a command from God, then you are going to have to explain how and why homosexuality is so antithetical to the faith it permanently divides a soul from God as long as it is practiced.

This. Absolutely. I have a number of friends who are gay, a number who are Christian and many of them are the same people.

Of course, there is an argument that some sects of Christianity have an issue with homosexuality, especially their involvement in the clergy, but homosexuals can merely go to another sect as there are many who are less bigoted in their approach.

As said already, preaching to the audience directly in fiction never works. It may even have the opposite effect. If an agenda is blatant it causes people to either stop reading or do the opposite (this is why I eat take aways while watching diet programmes on TV...) and it will always sound flat and not right in context. The way to get a message across in fiction is through satire - the way Swift did it with Gullivers Travels and Carrol did against modern mathematics in Alice in Wonderland or, more recently, the chilling parody of religion merged with chav culture in Blind Faith. it's a case of showing not telling and threading your argument through the work in very subtle ways.
 

crunchyblanket

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The question I would ask is: why have this conversation at all? Is it integral to the plot? What is the plot, and how does the conversation advance it? If it's just a bit of preaching plopped into the middle of a story with little context and little purpose other than to insert the author's personal opinion, then it's going to stick out like a fried egg on a mantlepiece.

Why this particular opinion also? What's so important about this message that it has to fit into your novel? It's not a minority opinion, and it's not going to change anyone's mind - you're either going to be preaching to the choir (in which case it's mostly pointless) or pissing a lot of your readers off (in which case it's counterproductive.)

Ask yourself whether the conversation fits within the greater framework of your story. I suspect, from the difficulty you've been having, that it doesn't. And if it doesn't fit, why have it in the first place? You're telling a story, not delivering a sermon.

Crunchy, proud that she managed to restrain herself.
 

patskywriter

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I can imagine the older guy saving the younger one and telling him that he wouldn't be a target if he didn't act/appear so gay.

The young guy thanks him but protests that he's not hurting anybody by being gay, so what's the big deal?

The older guy says that he's not for homosexuality but the young guy can do what he wants … but at the very least, learn how to fight.
 

frimble3

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Wait, you don't?

I could seriously actually see this happening between my dad and my husband. And the evening turning out fine, because my dad's a pretty mellow guy.

And while I myself don't self-identify as gay, I have many close friends who do and whom I care about deeply, and yet I've had very reasonable, logical conversations of this sort with my deeply conservative former talk-radio host uncle, which bystanders claimed were interesting both for their content and for the fact that we were perfectly polite all the way through.

Your family are better people than mine. :D
 

MacAllister

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This thread is increasingly disturbing on a number of levels, most of which include stereotyping by well-meaning people who first take great pains to let us know that they aren't lgbt, but they know some gay people and so feel qualified to speak to one point or another, and the troubling underlying assumption that "a gay" and "an anti-gay" are both universal concepts with a known set of characteristics.

These are not universal, monolithic constructs or identities, any more than "a Blonde" or "a Jew" equate to known quantities other than stereotypes.

The "*I* totally don't identify as gay, but I KNOW some gay people" (or alternately "gay people are some of my best friends") is so very common among unthinking but well intentioned people that there are thousands of hits on search engines. People who are not heterosexual hear this so often that we brace ourselves for the condescending, offensive and often ridiculous generalizations that typically follow.

So instead of putting innocent bystanders through that, I'm just gonna call this one all finished.
 
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