Should most men ask women if they need sensitivity readers?

[llyralen]

I was writing about men who it’s been really hard to get through to them that their writing has problems due to them not understanding women very well.

Out of the 4 men who I’ve critiqued recently 3 of them had this problem, and I didn’t tell them outright that they didn’t understand women enough and that it was causing major problems with their writing, but that was the problem. As soon as I get to those spots, all credibility goes. Honestly I would tell my husband to be sure that he use my services as a sensitivity reader… just to be sure.. although I’m very proud and happy about how he writes women in general…but even then there have been a few slip-ups.

So men… let’s talk about this. Remember that quote from Last of the Mohicans when Hawkeye says “My father told me not to try to understand white men as they are a breed apart and make no sense.” I remember my own father saying something close to this to my brother about women. If you have seen women as a breed apart and even if you haven’t you might want to look into this.

Believe me… just to be sure! Ask the women who have been reading your stuff if you need women sensitivity readers and see what happens. Don't you want to be sure? My husband has to tell me sometimes “No guy talks like that. That word is too feminine.” And I listen.

The following is my own experience listening to such a problem, I wrote it earlier and it prompted this thread…. but I think it shows how damaging to a plot it can be when you have women characters who aren’t very real/strong:

quote
“This guy had a scene where his MC’s wife is introduced. She appeared in order to save the character’s life at the last second. She stood over him seductively telling him to wake up. He describes her boobs and face for a page and then leaves to go get coffee and kill robots. He said the wife had not seen the MC in 300 years…

I said “Wasn't he almost killed?”
“Well, yeah.”
“And she didn’t know where he was for all that time?”
“Right”
“How did she find him suddenly? Had she been worried about him for 300 years? Was she looking for him? She pulled him through the vortex? And then I guess he fell asleep? Why is she softly calling his name to wake him up after him nearly dying?”
“Yeah, she was worried about him. He fell asleep. I just like that scene of being woken up like that.”
“Is he hurt at all? Now he is going out for coffee? She’s okay with that?”
“She’s okay with that. He wasn’t hurt. He is going to go start his day.”

This was rough with his real wife sitting next to him, especially during the long boob description.

I guess if women aren’t real thinking and feeling humans then maybe this scene doesn’t have plot holes.
End quote.

Let’s be real here… we women know what you don’t know… no use trying to be shy about it…it’s obvious when there is a disconnect. So why not ask us what we think?

 

[Introversion]

Seems a good idea to me. Getting a diverse set of beta readers is a good idea no matter what you’re writing. We all write what we know. What I don’t know fills bathtubs — about women, POC, LGBTQ people, linguists, sales people, Islam, virology, football (of any flavor), Russians, NASCAR enthusiasts, time to change bathtubs this one is overflowing, etc.

But getting to the point of knowing you don’t know much about many things is a place some people maybe can’t reach? I wouldn’t be surprised if That Guy you read for doesn’t see why his writing is problematic for women and never will?

 

[lizmonster]

So, I have two pet peeves:

1) Men who see women as a completely different and unfathomable species.
2) Women who see women as a completely different and unfathomable species.

Both of these attitudes inform the "men writing women" problem.

I think Intro's right about the individual quoted by the OP: that's someone who's never going to get it. It's been my experience that even the well-intentioned "how do I write strong women?" question indicates you're dealing with someone who's far too steeped in gender binary. (But I never give up hope that people can change. )

Beta readers are a great idea. Sensitivity readers are as well, but they're an expense not everyone can afford (and yes, they should be paid). And I know some have felt burned by working to give good feedback, only to have it ignored and the problematic book published, with the author saying "That can't be a problem because I hired a Sensitivity Reader[tm]!"

But fundamentally...all characters are human. As soon as we start thinking "that's what a <category of human> would do" we need to stop ourselves and really look at what we're writing.

Men writing women poorly is a common problem, but it's not the only place this sort of issue crops up.

 

[ConnorMuldowney]

I think it's important to always get feedback. I also think some male allies try too hard to not "write like other guys," which comes from a place of ego in and of itself.

I started identifying as non-binary about half a year ago, but before I identified as a man, and I will admit I did the awkward "hello women, please tell me if this is sexist," (not to random strangers obviously, but a little too much to other women writers), which I know realize is kind of just asking for free emotional labor.

So I think men should definitely ask if something is sexist when reasonable, but also shouldn't use women as soundboards to bounce talking points off of. I found that in addition to asking women, it also helps to read Feminist theory; that way, if a man has a question, and no one is around to "ask," instead of badgering a random woman in their life they can refer to strong principals of feminist academia. I don't expect writers to become PHDs in gender studies just to write a woman character, but knowing basic concepts like "male gaze" or "slut shaming" can help shape work to be stronger.

That being said, if someone is willing to read something over, I think that's a great resource to rely on.

I would also be curious what terms were considered "too feminine" for guys to say, I'm not sure what words are even "feminine" vs "masculine" so I'm curious what your husband was referring to. That being said, it's great you guys listen to each other on writing advice and take each other's perspectives into consideration.

 

[Maryn]

I agree, this guy's probably too far gone to benefit from a sensitivity reader representing all women.

But as someone giving requested feedback on his writing, you have other means at your disposal--dispassionate critique. This works much more strongly in written form, and if your group gives only verbal feedback, that's a big strike against it.

This guy had a scene where his MC’s wife is introduced. She appeared in order to save the character’s life at the last second. She stood over him seductively telling him to wake up. He describes her boobs and face for a page and then leaves to go get coffee and kill robots. He said the wife had not seen the MC in 300 years…

I said “Wasn't he almost killed?”
“Well, yeah.”
“And she didn’t know where he was for all that time?”
“Right”

Instead of noting the illogical progression with a question, be more blunt about saying what you mean instead of expecting the clueless to draw the correct conclusion. This doesn't seem like a plausible reaction. Wouldn't MC be more happy to have lived, and to see his wife again after all this time, than invested in studying her boobies and pretty face? Frankly, the focus on her breasts feels wildly inappropriate and sexual. Speaking as a woman, if this is how you react to me sweeping in to save your life without a moment to spare, next time you can save your own damned life, because I need to mean more to my beloved than my pretty face and titties.

Seriously, he needs to hear this. He won't change, but he might try to do better.

“How did she find him suddenly? Had she been worried about him for 300 years? Was she looking for him? She pulled him through the vortex? And then I guess he fell asleep? Why is she softly calling his name to wake him up after him nearly dying?”
“Yeah, she was worried about him. He fell asleep. I just like that scene of being woken up like that.”

Again, I really don't like how the critique process operates in this group. When this dude's book is in a reader's hands, he won't be there to explain or defend, so he shouldn't have the opportunity to do it now, either. You'd want to say something like, The reader is going to wonder how she found him just when he needed rescue, but you've offered nothing,not a vortex or time travel or implanted chip. You don't share with the reader any of her concern over his disappearance for centuries, or tell us that this is normal and there's no reason for a joyous reunion. The close call that could have killed him, his wife rescuing him, and his study of her ta-tas, should not lead to him sleeping. He seems utterly callous and unsympathetic, when I don't think that's what you want the reader to feel. Yeah, it's blunt, maybe a little hard, but it's also objective.

“Is he hurt at all? Now he is going out for coffee? She’s okay with that?”
“She’s okay with that. He wasn’t hurt. He is going to go start his day.”

You'd say, His actions are going to mystify your reader. Even if MC operates within a very different reality than ours, unless you specify otherwise, he's not likely to treat a brush with death and a reunion with his long-absent wife with a nap and coffee. Unless you explain a plausible reason for it, in advance so the reader already understands this is how relationships work in this world, she's going to be mad as hell, not okay with any of this.

Critique in writing can be far more powerful than what you apparently are able to say to his face. He may take home those written critiques and shred them, but he may wait until they don't sting a bit, reread them, and see there's truth in them.

But for me, this critique group would not be working. I'd thank them for their time and efforts, wish them well, and leave.

Maryn, picky about that sort of thing

 

[Unimportant]

So, I have two pet peeves:

1) Men who see women as a completely different and unfathomable species.
2) Women who see women as a completely different and unfathomable species.

Both of these attitudes inform the "men writing women" problem.

I think Intro's right about the individual quoted by the OP: that's someone who's never going to get it. It's been my experience that even the well-intentioned "how do I write strong women?" question indicates you're dealing with someone who's far too steeped in gender binary. (But I never give up hope that people can change. )

Beta readers are a great idea. Sensitivity readers are as well, but they're an expense not everyone can afford (and yes, they should be paid). And I know some have felt burned by working to give good feedback, only to have it ignored and the problematic book published, with the author saying "That can't be a problem because I hired a Sensitivity Reader[tm]!"

But fundamentally...all characters are human. As soon as we start thinking "that's what a <category of human> would do" we need to stop ourselves and really look at what we're writing.

Men writing women poorly is a common problem, but it's not the only place this sort of issue crops up.

I agree that it's of little use to lump people into man and woman categories. Sex, sexuality, and pretty much everything other than loving or hating Brussels sprouts exists across a spectrum rather than being binary. I reckon the more useful question the author can ask is, Would this character, as an individual with their own unique set of life experiences, react in this particular way under these particular circumstances?

 

[ConnorMuldowney]

I'm of two minds: I think that gender doesn't determine wants, needs desires. However, societal expectations can determine what is considered to be what "SHOULD" be people's wants, needs and desires (which I think is stupid as Hell). So you can write a world that is sexist, that expects women, men, whatever to be a "certain way," just as long as that doesn't bleed into the characters themselves.

Personally, I prefer stories taking place in worlds where no one cares about gender and everyone is treated as an individual. That said, I recognize there are stories to tell about overcoming sexist societies, even if those aren't the stories I particularly care for. So it's complicated. As a writer, though, I agree that the way "YOU" view characters as an author should not be by putting them into little boxes. Even putting morality aside, it makes for bad, boring writing to rely on stereotypes.

 

[PastyAlien]

So, I have two pet peeves:

1) Men who see women as a completely different and unfathomable species.
2) Women who see women as a completely different and unfathomable species.

3) Men who write women characters who introduce themselves by describing their own boobs in excruciating detail.

 

[ElaineA]

I may be an outlier here, but I actually think sensitivity readers are better for people who have already done the work of learning on the subject at hand (whether that's women, BIPOC/LGBTQ or other culture's traditions and mores, etc etc). Writers who are close to having it right, but may have a few slipups or one misunderstanding about something that bleeds through the story from start to finish. It should be a final-check.

Asking a woman to sensitivity read for a book with a male MC who wakes up, sees his wife for the first time in 300 years, and the first thing he does is describe her tits is asking for a lot of grief on both sides. Now, if that's the ONLY misjudgment, okay, but that absolutely unforced error (because there is a LOT LOT LOT of information out there about men using boobs as stand-ins for character, or as independent body parts that have profound psychological powers and can even do gymnastics independent of any body they may be attached to) would make me extremely skeptical. And I am 100% done with women presented that way in my entertainment, whether it's books, TV, or movies.

Information abounds in the era of teh interwebz, and it's easy as pie to find resources, books, groups. I had huge, gaping, patriarchy-shaped holes in my writing toolbox when I came to AW. I also didn't have proper understanding of the nuances necessary in writing people of color, or LGBTQ characters, or a whole host of other marginalized existences. I learned some rudiments by listening here, then expanding my listening and learning to places outside of AW. I spoke to people who knew the questions I would ask were coming from a place of wanting to learn, and I still got it wrong often enough. But when I was corrected, in public or private here, I listened. Which led to learning. I'm still doing that.

Basically, this progression is part of a writer's growth. Learn on your own as much as you can, then engage with betas and critique partners and other trusted writing partners, preferably from a variety of perspectives. The last step would be, to my mind, the sensitivity reader. They shouldn't be the ones actively teaching. They should be the ones grading the last draft before the final. It should be pretty clean by that point.

So, in answer to the question posed by the thread title, no, I don't think most men should ask women to be sensitivity readers. Not until they've--and ohgoddamn, Q has RUINED THIS PHRASE!--done their own research. Learned, gone as far as they can on their own, gotten beta readers or critique partners, and done the work. As a woman, I'm not here to provide cover, or put the gloss on the pig's lips for guys who are too lazy to do the hard part themselves. Newp.

 

[Unimportant]

That's a really good point, Elaine. Setting aside how good the end product will be, there's a huge difference between "I've done as much homework as I can and thought about this as hard as I can, but I realise I don't have this lived experience and may not be getting it quite right, would you please help me if I give you XYX in return" and "I don't want to bother even trying to get it right, I want you to fix it all for me but I also require that you do it in such a way that my ego remains fully intact."

 

[llyralen]

OP here. I was doing the work for him if he would have listened.

If he cared.
If he were able to see women as people.

So any character (male or female) who had not seen their loved one in 300 years, had just saved their life, and who somehow had just showed up out of the blue to do so would need plenty of explanation. But somehow because of the way this man views women (yes, specifically how he views women) then all of this doesn’t seem missing to him. Somehow women act in mysterious ways that cannot be questioned and their thoughts and emotions are not to be imagined.

So if I asked this guy to pretend his MC was gay and pretend that his MCs male lover just appeared… would he be able to see the plot holes better? I think so.

I asked my husband to read it over. He said he was having a hard time understanding all the problems. I said “Pretend the MC is gay… pretend his male lover just showed up. Get it?” All of a sudden a look of understanding dawned on my husband’s face. Again… I have to say my husband does write women well in my opinion.

E Gads people…. The problem is that many men are not able to see all of this. And yes, I can spell it out better, be more forceful… Would he listen? He’s not listening at all… I’m a woman. We see how he thinks about women.

It’s not about THIS wife he is writing acting not like a woman… it’s about this woman not acting like a human at all.

The problem is not binary except for people who think binary and their world of binary, well it ain’t equal.

 

[llyralen]

Well… lol. Okay, so I was doing the work for him if he would have listened.

If he cared.
If he were able to see women as people.
So any character (male or female) who had not seen their loved one in 300 years, had just saved their life, and who somehow had just showed up out of the blue to do so would need plenty of explanation. But somehow because of the way this man views women (yes, specifically how he views women) then all of this doesn’t seem missing to him. Somehow women act in mysterious ways that cannot be questioned and their thoughts and emotions are not to be imagined.

So if I asked this guy to pretend his MC was gay and pretend that his MCs male lover just appeared… would he be able to see the plot holes better? I think so.

I asked my husband to read it over. He said he was having a hard time understanding all the problems. I said “Pretend the MC is gay… pretend his male lover just showed up. Get it?” All of a sudden a look of understanding dawned on my husband’s face. Again… I have to say my husband does write women well in my opinion.

E Gads people…. The problem is that many men are not able to see all of this. And yes, I can spell it out better, be more forceful… Would he listen? He’s not listening at all… I’m a woman. We see how he thinks about women.

It’s not about THIS wife he is writing acting not like a woman… it’s about this woman not acting like a human at all.

The problem is not binary except for people who think binary and their world of binary, well it ain’t equal.

With how common I find this in male writers and just openly acknowledging the socialization they may have received, aim just very much encouraging them to ask “Is it me? Can this be me with the horrible plot holes (never mind about the offense, even, of all the women readers knowing they aren’t human to them)? Can I listen to my women readers and if I asked for their feedback about how I view women would I be able to improve?

 

[mccardey]

OP here. I was doing the work for him if he would have listened.

You can't do that work for him - that's an overstep. And herein lies the problem. Problematic men will always write problematic women. Also, humanity is very, very imperfect. Fortunately, most problematic men won't get their problematic books published, and most problematic writing groups tend to fall inwards and can be restarted - without the problem-people. It's not just men writing women: it's also racism, ableism, colonialism, inequity, privilege of all kinds, you name it. We all need sensitivity readers from time to time...

 

[ConnorMuldowney]

I'm in total agreement with ElaineA about doing your own research first. I'm highly suspicious of anyone who believes that sexism can be spotted like a sore spot by a doctor, removed, and then the book is perfect after that. Sexism implies a fundamental lack of curiosity about someone else's experiences, so if sexism is present, it's indicative of a larger issue, an indication by smoke that your whole book is on fire, not just an individual issue that can be cut out and then the book is perfect.

That sounds like I'm putting a lot of pressure on men, and to be fair I don't believe most sexism is some malicious, hands rubbing together cartoon villainy, dudes make mistakes, and that's fine. That said, if sexism is present in a late draft, when a dude fails to do even basic research, or shows a lack of understanding that everyone regardless of gender is a person, that means in my opinion steps were not taken along the way to fix larger deep seated issues. If you see a woman only for her boobs, it seems unlikely that your book will have a nuanced or interesting view on ANYTHING, women or otherwise.

 

[llyralen]

You can't do that work for him - that's an overstep. And herein lies the problem. Problematic men will always write problematic women. Also, humanity is very, very imperfect. Fortunately, most problematic men won't get their problematic books published, and most problematic writing groups tend to fall inwards and can be restarted - without the problem-people. It's not just men writing women: it's also racism, ableism, colonialism, inequity, privilege of all kinds, you name it. We all need sensitivity readers from time to time...

Agreed completely. I’m just saying LISTENING (for Pete’s sake) is the first and easy step. Let alone studying.
This guy study…..? Not in this century. Definitely he won’t get published.

But he isn’t the only one! I’m saying it seems like a majority of men have problems writing women, the older usually the more true, and the more honest we are about the reasons for that and “Could it be me?” Self-questioning, the better.

 

[mccardey]

Agreed completely. I’m just saying LISTENING (for Pete’s sake) is the first and easy step. Let alone studying.
This guy study…..? Not in this century. Definitely he won’t get published.

But he isn’t the only one! I’m saying it seems like a majority of men have problems writing women, the older usually the more true, and the more honest we are about the reasons for that and “Could it be me?” Self-questioning, the better.

A lot depends on who you're reading, though. (Obviously!) I'm finding the opposite - I'm approaching this discussion as an older person, so that might be part of it - but I'm reading a lot of younger writers across all genders who are much, much more aware of women-as-people than used to be the case. That gives me hope.

(I agree, this hope comes off a Very Low Bar.)

 

[ldlago]

Problematic men will always write problematic women.

I'm afraid I fall into this category. I suppose we haven't all lived the fairy tale lives that make us good, supportive partners. Problematic women will always write problematic men as well. Misunderstanding is not a one way street. Or maybe we do understand and simply prefer it this way. I've been drawn into destructive relationships all my life, and I don't expect that to change. I've been writing in the first person most recently. It keeps me out of women's heads.

 

[ConnorMuldowney]

I feel like men subconsciously have been taught that women exist to serve them (not all internalize that, but some do), whether that be the caretaker role, the sexual role, or the redemptive teacher role. And it gets weird and complicated because even asking with good intentions a woman if something you wrote is sexist (which is generally a good thing to do) is implicitly putting them in the role of serving you in some way.

I feel like you just gotta' read. Read a lot of fiction by women, read a lot of feminist theory, just read enough that you have a baseline for why you might feel women need to be written a certain way.

That said, the specific example OP provides seems honestly not even worth all this feminist theory discussion. Like OP said, he's literally not even doing the bare minimum of listening. My advice for men who make mistakes in general (which I have, because like David Foster Wallace says, you can't swim in water without getting wet) is to read more.

My advice for boobs man is to not be a writer.

 

[llyralen]

Okay… WHY are we so quick to get off the subject? Women are always way behind racial equality historically. Why so quick to say “Okay women have a problem too?” Or “Yeah but not just women… other groups too.”

Can we think of that a bit?
Why say the problem is not studying enough? When there are women everywhere who, YES, can SEE how we are treated? We women know how deep and how big a problem it is. We know it’s not just in the manuscript. But could it start there? Maybe with the motivation to write a better book with a bigger target audience? Isn’t it about just first being willing to listen to those affected and look inward?

Or are men so used to women not talking about this unless in the nice way that I did with the author I described that we can’t take it?

Not that I don’t want to hear opinions, I very much do, but isn’t listening to women the most important step in what I’m saying?

Isn’t listening to minorities the most important step in being fair to them? Or only if those minorities are men? Do we have to ignore the person in front of us trying to patiently teach us and go study? Ego can’t take it?

I’m not trying to put words into anyone’s mouth, but…. I’m seeing a lot of aversion, I’m also seeing a lot of legit and honest thought and self-reflection, though. So carry on! I guess in whatever beginning you can tolerate.

 

[ElaineA]

A lot depends on who you're reading, though. (Obviously!) I'm finding the opposite - I'm approaching this discussion as an older person, so that might be part of it - but I'm reading a lot of younger writers across all genders who are much, much more aware of women-as-people than used to be the case. That gives me hope.

(I agree, this hope comes off a Very Low Bar.)

It IS a low bar, and yet so few Big Name Male Authors as have managed to clear it. Falling upward and upward, always.

That manner of viewing, and then writing, women was (is) deeply entrenched, but I agree, I think it's being tackled in various spheres. My sons are in their mid-20's and they are so much more conscious of patriarchy and sexism than the majority of men of my generation. They've always had girls and women in their central friends-groups (not to mention an older sister and one VERY outspoken girl-cousin), which has been a solid resource for seeing women as whole and individual.

I do think there's been a significant amount of progress on this front in our industry the last decade. More so than there's been in the LGBTQ, BIPOC, disability/ableism columns, I would say. Then again, with the rare exception, I've all but given up reading books written by men, so my perspective could be skewed.

 

[ConnorMuldowney]

Can we think of that a bit?
Why say the problem is not studying enough? When there are women everywhere who, YES, can SEE how we are treated? We women know how deep and how big a problem it is. We know it’s not just in the manuscript. But could it start there? Maybe with the motivation to write a better book with a bigger target audience? Isn’t it about just first being willing to listen to those affected and look inward?

Or are men so used to women not talking about this unless in the nice way that I did with the author I described that we can’t take it?

Not that I don’t want to hear opinions, I very much do, but isn’t listening to women the most important step in what I’m saying?

fair point. I might have gotten a little too much into the weeds of academic language here and missed your bigger point. Women aren’t something to be “studied,” change in any capacity starts by listening

 

[lizmonster]

So...I'm losing track of what the point is here. Is this just meant to be a big bitch session about sexism? Because yeah, sure, fine. I follow Men Writing Women on Twitter and Instagram. I grew up in the 70s and read a lot of really sexist stuff.

I attended a panel on women in publishing once. Some big behind-the-scenes names on the panel. It was a lot of carping about the ways male writers stereotype, and eyerolling over it, and they brought up zero new ideas and zero new solutions. It was dull, and frankly kind of insulting.

Publishing in general has a massive sexism problem. Pointing fingers at some guy in a crit group doesn't address the issue. Insisting that men have women read for them is, as others have pointed out, letting bad writers off the hook.

It's not the 70s. It's 2021, there's a lot of discussion about this stuff, and I am not obligated to fix anybody's writing for them.

Also: it's a bit "not all men" of me, sure, but I have read male writers here at AW who know what they're doing. So maybe, if we continue with this discussion, we can stay away from the sweeping generalizations.

 

[llyralen]

I feel like men subconsciously have been taught that women exist to serve them (not all internalize that, but some do), whether that be the caretaker role, the sexual role, or the redemptive teacher role. And it gets weird and complicated because even asking with good intentions a woman if something you wrote is sexist (which is generally a good thing to do) is implicitly putting them in the role of serving you in some way.

I feel like you just gotta' read. Read a lot of fiction by women, read a lot of feminist theory, just read enough that you have a baseline for why you might feel women need to be written a certain way.

That said, the specific example OP provides seems honestly not even worth all this feminist theory discussion. Like OP said, he's literally not even doing the bare minimum of listening. My advice for men who make mistakes in general (which I have, because like David Foster Wallace says, you can't swim in water without getting wet) is to read more.

My advice for boobs man is to not be a writer.

Oh I wouldn’t go that far. I agree completely that this guy (and the 3 out of 4 men who I critiqued recently) absolutely feel women are there to serve them. That’s obvious in these manuscripts, as it is in life. I work in a hospital. I’m an educator, but of course many men can’t deal with taking education from me, but I want to educate them in my health field and of course all the nurses know which men treat them like humans and which men don’t. Gosh you guys are obvious but maybe don’t know it!

But do we women want to work with you? Of course! You are half the population! I was trying to help like any human being should want to try to help!

So not taking that help when offered because of being too proud is also part of the ego. Is that behind that? And maybe if your pride says “I just can’t stand to be helped again by someone who is forced to be in a service role”. I can appreciate it, but it still doesn’t allow me to interact as just a fellow human.

Just pretend we are male? I don’t know? Would that help?

 

[mccardey]

Okay… WHY are we so quick to get off the subject? Women are always way behind racial equality historically. Why so quick to say “Okay women have a problem too?” Or “Yeah but not just women… other groups too.”

Can we think of that a bit?
Why say the problem is not studying enough? When there are women everywhere who, YES, can SEE how we are treated? We women know how deep and how big a problem it is. We know it’s not just in the manuscript. But could it start there? Maybe with the motivation to write a better book with a bigger target audience? Isn’t it about just first being willing to listen to those affected and look inward?

Or are men so used to women not talking about this unless in the nice way that I did with the author I described that we can’t take it?

Not that I don’t want to hear opinions, I very much do, but isn’t listening to women the most important step in what I’m saying?

Isn’t listening to minorities the most important step in being fair to them? Or only if those minorities are men? Do we have to ignore the person in front of us trying to patiently teach us and go study? Ego can’t take it?

I’m not trying to put words into anyone’s mouth, but…. I’m seeing a lot of aversion, I’m also seeing a lot of legit and honest thought and self-reflection, though. So carry on! I guess in whatever beginning you can tolerate.

I'm not sure who this is directed to. If it was for me - I have listened, and I've responded. (If agreement with your experience of that terrible male writer was all you wanted, I did that in the other thread you posted the story on...)

 

[PastyAlien]

If he were able to see women as people.

You might as well try to educate a Ferengi with some of these guys. Just a complete waste of time and energy. Better, IMO, to get yourself some great crit partners who aren't sexist shits--is what I do.