Permuted Press

[victoriastrauss]

They did not get rid of print books that were already in place with them, but did get rid of print books for all new authors--unless your release becomes a bestseller, then there is a possibility of a print release.

This is my understanding also, based on the information I've seen.

They also announced in October that they were "pausing the release of most new titles" until early 2015. Looking at Amazon, it doesn't look as if there's been any pause in their release schedule, but maybe those were books that were already scheduled. From Dec. 16, all the new releases are ebook only.

They had a bad contract (details in my blog post). They said they were going to make changes going forward, but I have no idea if they actually did.

- Victoria

 

[popgun62]

Hmmm...that's weird. I have four books coming out in 2016, and as far as my contract says, they're all coming out in print and eBook. They will all be available for order through Ingram. I signed with PP last April, and nothing has changed. If you sign with Permuted Platinum or Post Hill Press, you have the added benefit of being marketed directly to bookstores. I'm not that lucky...yet.

 

[haunted]

Maybe your agent negotiated language differently. Or have you checked for sure that yours will still be in print? Permuted told us all that anyone with a book out already will still get the print. The only reason I left is because of that, no POD or print going forward. I just need print to sell at my personal events, as I do a lot of events. So your case must've been different.

 

[popgun62]

Four releases in 2016, both print and eBook.

 

[haunted]

OK great. Apparently yours was a different deal. All new authors are ebook only, unless apparently, some different arrangements are made.

 

[triceretops]

Well, I guess I'll have to have my agent work on those clauses, and she certainly will if we make a sale. I don't understand the decision to stop the PODs, which apparently were all going to bookstores in the past. That is, unless, the distribution costs became to much for them to handle, if that was one of the problems to begin with.

Sorry to see this change of events. I actually buy POD copies for myself and friends.

tri

 

[haunted]

Tri, perhaps you might have enough previous sales or be in a genre which can entice them to give you POD or platinum/bookstore status. My own personal venue sales were not enough to warrant the time-which is why they say they stopped POD-"time-suck", versus cost. (the 500 or so copies of print I usually sell at live events does make a noticeable chunk of income for me though)

 

[popgun62]

Having an agent probably helps - I was able to retain all my rights, e.g. movie, audio, etc. I also received an email stating that my original deal would not be changing, which was for print and eBooks. Also, I write sci-fi/supernatural thrillers, a very popular genre. Maybe that made a difference - who knows?

 

[haunted]

Could be.

 

[triceretops]

Tri, perhaps you might have enough previous sales or be in a genre which can entice them to give you POD or platinum/bookstore status. Not sure how popgun made it happen. In my own case, paranormal genre isn't a big seller there, and my own personal venue sales were not enough to warrant their time-which is why they say they stopped POD-"time-suck", versus cost. (the 500 or so copies of print I usually sell at live events does make a noticeable chunk of income for me though)

Well, good points. I don't think I'm the top type seller they're looking for, since my books sell average or slight below. I do have a wide range of books available--thriller-YA-UF and such. I don't know which genre would stand the best chance with them. I did contact the imprint on FB and they seemed enthusiastic about YA.

BTW, 500 pods is nothing to sneeze nowadays in this tight and competitive marketplace.

tri

 

[haunted]

That's the number of print books I sold at my own events last year. Not huge, but nothing to sneeze at, as you say-at least for my own income. LOL

 

[Old Hack]

Hmmm...that's weird. I have four books coming out in 2016, and as far as my contract says, they're all coming out in print and eBook.

If your contract says your book will have a print edition it would be difficult for your publisher to cancel that print edition after signing, unless there was some sort of exclusion clause--which would have to have various guarantees and clarifications attached to it, which your agent would surely have insisted on. Perhaps that's why you got to keep those editions?

Well, I guess I'll have to have my agent work on those clauses, and she certainly will if we make a sale.

Tri, have you read Victoria Strauss's comments in this thread?

In other words, when they ramped up production from about 25 books a year to over 100 released so far in 2014, their eyes were bigger than their stomachs and they now need time to regroup.

They expanded too quickly, they have had to delay publication on a lot of books which are already under contract, and they appear to be changing the terms under which they've agreed to publish books after the contracts have been signed.

None of that is good.

I would not consider publishing with them until they're well out of this rocky patch. And then there's this:

They had a bad contract (details in my blog post). They said they were going to make changes going forward, but I have no idea if they actually did.

Your agent might be able to negotiate you a better contract: but I have to question the attitudes of a publisher which has a bad contract in the first place. I don't expect publishers to give authors everything at cost to themselves: but if they don't set out from a fair and reasonable place, there might well be a problem there.

I don't understand the decision to stop the PODs, which apparently were all going to bookstores in the past. That is, unless, the distribution costs became to much for them to handle, if that was one of the problems to begin with.

Sorry to see this change of events. I actually buy POD copies for myself and friends.

tri

If they were relying on POD for their print-runs rather than offset it's not the distribution costs which are the problem, it's the printing cost. It's very difficult to make viable a publishing plan which includes both full-service distribution and POD; and it's very difficult to sell print editions if you don't have full-service distribution.

 

[haunted]

Yes, for those not on the platinum program (books going to bookstores) the rest of us were POD. I know many authors who are very happy with them-those with print versions available, and those who didn't care about having a POD to sell.

Unless your agent gets you different terms, I believe all new authors will not get print or POD.

 

[Undercover]

I would imagine their new imprint, Winlock will be the same. If that's the case, that's disappointing.

 

[victoriastrauss]

I would not consider publishing with them until they're well out of this rocky patch.

I strongly second this. I would not approach Permuted at all at this point. Going forward, I'd want to know whether they've changed their author-unfriendly contract (not just whether they're willing to negotiate the bad clauses--a contract's boilerplate can tell you a lot about a publisher's attitude toward its authors); whether they've slowed the speed of their releases to a sustainable level (even cutting the 2014 pace by half would be good); and what the ratio of ebook to print is. Not to mention, whether they're still around a year from now.

I hate to sound cynical, but I think that past bad management decisions have put Permuted at risk. I hope they make it, but I don't think that's at all certain at this point (and I hope I'm wrong).

- Victoria

 

[popgun62]

According to the "powers that be," the boilerplate contract was the same one being used by the previous owner, as well as by Simon & Schuster. Whether that's all true, who knows? They could be making it all up.

 

[victoriastrauss]

So it sounds like the same contract as the one I saw several examples of. It's possible it might have been adapted from an S&S contract, but many of the provisions were not Big 5 boilerplate (the 20% ebook royalties and four-year publication window, to name just two).

- Victoria

 

[triceretops]

Tri, have you read Victoria Strauss's comments in this thread?

Thanks OH. Yeah, then I went to Victoria's blog and read the low-down. This doesn't look good at all. I gave my agent a halt on it. She agreed.

 

[popgun62]

I know for a fact they're having their new contract reviewed by a publishing attorney. My contract was reviewed and "okayed" by my agent and the Trident Media Group legal team.

 

[haunted]

Whether the new contract is in place now or not, I don't know, you would have to ask someone who has recently signed one.

 

[victoriastrauss]

The new contract was supposed to be shared with HWA. I asked that it be shared with me as well, but to date I've heard nothing. Which is too bad, because if they have made changes, I'd like to be able to amend my blog post (which comes up on the first page of Google search results) to reflect that.

- Victoria

 

[popgun62]

It is currently being reviewed by a publishing attorney, according to Michael Wilson. Without doing a copy and paste of his entire post, he said that they attempted to get several attorneys to review it and do the final drafting work, but many declined stating conflict of interest or other reasons. They didn't want to get some new attorney hanging out a shingle, so they are in line waiting their turn with a legit publishing attorney. As is the case with everything in the publishing industry, it's really, really slow. It took weeks for TMG to review my contract and get it back to my agent, and then to Permuted. So, bottom line, it will be a few weeks before the finalized contracts are ready. And I am only an author, not a spokesperson, so I'm only relaying what we've been told.

I would also add that Michael knows Victoria is still waiting to read the contract and completely understands her feelings on the matter.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I just had a look at Winlock, which seems a net deal after costs, but they're unspecified in the submissions details. My gut is saying no, but the book would be a good fit. What's the general concensus on Winlock?

 

[popgun62]

Winlock is run by the same people as Permuted and I know several authors signed with them who all seem happy with their deal. I am certainly happy with Permuted Press.

 

[Brian P. White]

I'm looking at their FAQs page now and I have to wonder if they're doing the print again or if they just never updated their FAQs. Does anyone know?

Also, was it only ebooks that you should get to set the price on your books or did I miss something? Their FAQs say they set the retail price themselves. And should PP (as stated) be the ones to allow whomever to sell my book (including me unless I have their permission)--is that right?

Yes, I'm still new to this. I have four novels and none published yet (2nd and 4th being respectively sequels to the 1st and 3rd), so I need all the help I can get and I don't really know how to navigate this site to answer every question. It makes me feel dumb, but I keep trying.