Oh, America

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lizmonster

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The sympathy is genuinely appreciated. But let's not conflate this with other religions and cultures. This is homegrown extremist fundamentalist Christian fascism, and we should call it out as such. Anything else is obscuring the problem.
 

ElaineA

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I'm grateful for any and all allies, whether they be friends from other countries, cis or gay or bi or trans or nonbinary Americans, old people, young people. All comers. Everyone who knows that this is just a nose under the tent in America. Because they're coming for us all.
 

Roxxsmom

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Scary times indeed.

I have never been more glad to be past childbearing on a personal, selfish level.

Some pro choice folks I know with younger daughters are more or less shrugging this off because we live in blue states, where measures are currently being taken to safeguard choice. Of course this is assuming that state politics remain as they are and that a move to ban abortion at the Federal level won't be successful.

But my heart aches for all those who can become pregnant and have had their choice (to decide whether to accept the risks and liabilities of pregnancy and giving birth) taken away from them because of where they live. Also, even if the blue states do retain their autonomy, I also feel sad for all the young people who will feel less free to stay in or move to red states in pursuit of an education, job, family ties, affordable place to live, etc. I sure as heck wouldn't move to any of those states now, even at my age. Fortunately, I don't have to.

This is also a warning to people in other countries, because there is nothing that proves this can only happen in the US. For decades, people I know insisted the ultra right in this country was a lunatic fringe, only given lip service by Republicans who were mostly concerned with lowering taxes and keeping government small.

I hope this is a wake up call for socially liberal people in other parts of the world, because it will definitely embolden the forces of darkness and oppression in other countries.
 

lizmonster

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Some pro choice folks I know with younger daughters are more or less shrugging this off because we live in blue states, where measures are currently being taken to safeguard choice.

Blue state. 18-year-old daughter. Not shrugging anything off here.

Our state governor - Charlie Baker, a republican the republicans hate - signed an order today saying the state wouldn't recognize extradition orders from other states for people who came here for legal medical procedures. Which is great, sure, except we're talking about extradition, and this feels a lot like the beginning of us fragmenting into 50 not-necessarily-friendly-with-each-other countries.
 

Roxxsmom

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Blue state. 18-year-old daughter. Not shrugging anything off here.

Our state governor - Charlie Baker, a republican the republicans hate - signed an order today saying the state wouldn't recognize extradition orders from other states for people who came here for legal medical procedures. Which is great, sure, except we're talking about extradition, and this feels a lot like the beginning of us fragmenting into 50 not-necessarily-friendly-with-each-other countries.
I know you aren't.

Out here in the west, Oregon, CA, and Washington have formed a coalition to increase abortion access for people from out of state.

This is great, but I fear it will still mostly benefit people of means. Someone who has the kind of job that doesn't provide paid time off, and who lacks reliable transportation or the money to get an abortion in the first place likely won't benefit. Likewise for teens who feel they can't safely tell their parents of their situation.

This was an issue in many places already, since many states had a paucity of clinics. But this is going to make it even harder.

One thing that is "interesting" about this court decision is that Democrats and Democratic states are finally coming out and flying their pro-choice colors more proudly. Aside from a relatively small handful of activists, it was sort of a taboo topic before. Democratic candidates were more likely to be pro choice, but increasing abortion access and making it easier for people to come in from other states (many of which had almost no access already) were never big talking points. In fact, they often acted kind of apologetic for being pro choice, prefacing their statements with, "While I oppose abortion personally..."

I wonder how many women in politics have had abortions themselves, and how many men in politics have had an intimate partner who got one with his approval. Almost 1/4 of US women have an abortion at some time during their reproductive years, so I don't think the number is small. I suspect some Republican elected officials are in this boat too.
 
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lizmonster

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This is great, but I fear it will still mostly benefit people of means. Someone who has the kind of job that doesn't provide paid time off, and who lacks reliable transportation or the money to get an abortion in the first place likely won't benefit. Likewise for teens who feel they can't safely tell their parents of their situation.

I think you're absolutely right. It'll help some people at the top of the social food chain, but there's a reason this kind of thing needs to be generally legal and available.
 

mccardey

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Blue state. 18-year-old daughter. Not shrugging anything off here.

Our state governor - Charlie Baker, a republican the republicans hate - signed an order today saying the state wouldn't recognize extradition orders from other states for people who came here for legal medical procedures. Which is great, sure, except we're talking about extradition, and this feels a lot like the beginning of us fragmenting into 50 not-necessarily-friendly-with-each-other countries.
I can't even. This is just so awful.
 

mccardey

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I'm just heart-broken. I feel as though I only know the Good America, and I feel like - that's not fair. It should be United States, surely. And there's so much to love and so much to be angry about - but this is happening? Now? This? I'm - heart-broken.
 

lizmonster

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I'm just heart-broken. I feel as though I only know the Good America, and I feel like - that's not fair. It should be United States, surely. And there's so much to love and so much to be angry about - but this is happening? Now? This? I'm - heart-broken.
I think we've never been what we should have been. I did think we were trying, though. I suppose I still do, although my expectstions for success have plummeted.
 

lizmonster

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Honestly I don't know what to say that isn't just hold your girls and women close.
There's a lot happening right now. Not all of it is bad or hopeless. But this feels like anarchy, and it's scary and demoralizing. And I know they've done that on purpose. Rage is better than fear.
 

Brightdreamer

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I'm grateful for any and all allies, whether they be friends from other countries, cis or gay or bi or trans or nonbinary Americans, old people, young people. All comers. Everyone who knows that this is just a nose under the tent in America. Because they're coming for us all.
I think the nose of this fundamental extremism came in under the tent flap some time ago. We've got the proverbial camel's head, shoulders, and at least one foreleg in the tent at this point - and too many people petting it and offering treats or simply pretending it'll get bored and leave on its own or because Someone Else discourages it.
 

Chris P

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My immediate hope is that Clarence Thomas resigns or is removed, but he would have to become some sort of threat to the GOP for that to happen (the House needs to charge, and the Senate try with 2/3 vote to convict, just like a presidential impeachment). Another hope is that this strengthens the support networks for those in need. My longer term hope is the 13 states [sorry for the paywall] that will enact abortion bans in the next weeks/months will do so poorly, making the laws unenforceable and (eventually) getting this back to the Supreme Court where another Roe-type decision is reached. But lots of people will suffer and die before that happens.

I think the nose of this fundamental extremism came in under the tent flap some time ago. We've got the proverbial camel's head, shoulders, and at least one foreleg in the tent at this point - and too many people petting it and offering treats or simply pretending it'll get bored and leave on its own or because Someone Else discourages it.

I read a book some time ago on the history of Christianity, that said in the U.S. the extremism goes back to the middle 1800s, when improved papermaking, printing, and distribution (railroads mostly) allowed cheap bibles to be available to anyone and all. Particularly in the frontier areas with more people than clergy, this allowed local self-proclaimed and untrained leaders to make spurious interpretations of scripture and gather groups of followers around them. These became the dizzying array of small, isolated, and many times crackpot sects arose. The more recent book Jesus and John Wayne by Kristin Kobes Du Mez links the current evangelical and Christian nationalist movement to the Cold War. Here, mass media allowed (the complete myths of) the rugged individualism, American exceptionalism, and masculinity of the Old West to be linked to patriotism. As a further weapon against the "Godless Commies," Christianity got swept up in that, foisting an expectation that True Americans love God and live in a Christian nation. Of course there have always been Christian nationalists, but the modern incarnation in the United States follows this course.

Aside, although the Founders were people of faith--especially John Adams--they were largely Anglicans and not fringe theocrats, and well-educated products of the Enlightenment to boot. My theory is that following the upheavals of the English Civil War, the codified separation of Church and State was meant to protect the church from become another tool of power for the state. Imagine if the U.S. president had the power to appoint the head of an established U.S. church, and who--heaven help us--Trump would have chosen do to so. Although in modern times this is playing out as the state being a tool of power for the church. In our case today, this is the "church" in the first-century sense, meaning a community of like-minded believers rather than any one organized body.

Good grief, sorry for the TED Talk. I really aught to take all of this to a blog.
 

ElaineB

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It also dates back to the mid-1800s and the push to protect slavery as the country expanded west. I'm no historian, so I follow Heather Cox Richardson, and her Letters from an American--a must read. So when the southern Democrats wanted to protect slavery, northerners finally had enough and worked together, formed the Republican Party, and gave us Abraham Lincoln.

What we can't do is sit back, clutch our pearls, and lament the downfall of democracy. The Republicans have rigged the system, and we'll see in November how completely, but we have to vote, run for office, yell and scream.

I may be safe from this ruling, but not from the next. Thomas specifically mentioned gay rights as his next target.

And three Supreme Court justices lied under oath to the U.S. Congress. As HCR says, they should be impeached, which will never happen, but they should never have been confirmed.
 

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(I think this is the best active thread to put this.)

I get email alerts from bot sentinel, which monitors tweets for suspicious activity. Today's email, for any voting American's awareness, is this:

Over the past 24 hours, we have observed an increase in inauthentic accounts engaging with people angry at the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. These accounts are trying to dissuade others from voting in November, and they are using messaging like:

“Why bother voting now?”
“All is already lost.”
“Voting won’t change anything.”

We are asking everyone to stay vigilant and report any accounts that appear to be suspicious.

Just a FYI.
 

Silva

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The sympathy is genuinely appreciated. But let's not conflate this with other religions and cultures. This is homegrown extremist fundamentalist Christian fascism, and we should call it out as such. Anything else is obscuring the problem.
I'd also like to add that extremist fundamentalist Christian fascism isn't fringe in this context. Wasn't it something like 30-40% of Americans that believed Roe v Wade should be overturned?

Yesterday I sat for a medical certification exam that is the culmination of five years of effort to undo the long-term financial impacts of being raised as a woman in that culture, and that will allow me to provide for myself as a single parent to two preteens.

It's coincidental that Roe v Wade was overturned on the same day, but it feels personal. It feels like these people are reeeaaaching out from their little bubble of reality with clawing fingers to try and drag me back in. Overturning it was never really about saving the babies, after all.
 

Introversion

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I'd also like to add that extremist fundamentalist Christian fascism isn't fringe in this context. Wasn't it something like 30-40% of Americans that believed Roe v Wade should be overturned?
30% of Americans believe in astrology. You could probably find at least 20% of Americans who believe in any dumbass thing? More, if they lurk in the “right” social media places.

That said, I know Americans I wouldn’t describe as “extremist fundamentalist” who are happy Roe was overturned, because “save the babies”.

Those same people will be all surprise-Pikachu-face when women are jailed for a miscarriage. Or forced to give birth to their rapist family-member’s baby. Or die because their baby died in the womb and, tough luck, no abortions for you. Or find that their state has ruled their contraceptive choice an “abortificient” and outlawed it. Such people tend to like simple solutions, and they just got one. May they suffer the consequences too.
 

Siri Kirpal

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Which is great, sure, except we're talking about extradition, and this feels a lot like the beginning of us fragmenting into 50 not-necessarily-friendly-with-each-other countries.
Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Yeah. I'm wondering how long before the United States becomes 50 "sovereign" states.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 
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SWest

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I more envision territories developing over time...the West coast has already declared their unity on this issue.

Yesterday, New York, New Jersey, and Delaware leadership gave extensive press conferences regarding the combined decisions on abortion and gun management. Separately but similarly in favor of bodily autonomy and medical privacy, and not in favor of SCOTUS interference with our removal of weapons from public spaces.

Problem for the "inside" and southern states? They have less access to liquid currency (GDP, industry, banks), and therefore less direct affiliation with countries else-world (to get things they don't produce locally). Their post-civil war outlook is as grim today as in the past. All well and good to idealize antebellum culture, but folks clinging to the confederate flag were literally dirt-poor.

The wild card, of course, being the U.S. military and reserves.
 

Unimportant

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Just wondering.....if the USA goes whole-hog Mike Pence and bans abortions entirely, would it be legal/feasible to have floating abortion clinics just off the coasts, out in international waters, for the rich people to patronise?