Mirador Publishing / Belvedere Publishing / Netherworld Books

[para]

I've seen a couple of people on my yahoo groups talking about how they are going to be "published" by these folks. Couldn't find a thread already for this one - I did search.

http://www.miradorpublishing.com/index.html

 

[Stacia Kane]

Subsidy publisher (vanity press).

http://www.miradorpublishing.com/Our Solution.html

Our model is simple, you contribute part of the initial costs and in return we have your book prepared and printed. We will obtain an ISBN number. Your book will be listed on Gardners and Ingrams ensuring acceptability to retail shops. We will see that your book is listed on Amazon. We will prepare e-book versions of your work for electronic distribution channels.

In addition, the site pulls out all those tired old canards about how nobody wants to take a chance on new authors because they want money and are using an outdated business model, and a new one about how the music industry adapted, and now they're adapting publishing to run the way the music business does.

 

[Momento Mori]

Time for a flog ...

Mirador Publishing website:
In 1475 William Caxton printed the first book in the English language, The Histories of Troy written by Raoul le Fevre. Although details of the transaction are not known, it is quite probable that Caxton and le Fevre came to an arrangement over printing costs and payments with some sort of royalty system. So was born a model for the publishing industry that is little changed to this day.

:blinks:

I don't think there really was much of a publishing industry in the late 15th century, and I've certainly never thought of Caxton as a self-published author.

Sadly though, they are right in one respect - there have always been people willing to pay to be published.

Mirador Publishing website:
These days however, things have changed. Tightened budgets, falling sales and increased competition have created a world that all but closes its doors to new writers. Agents are reluctant to take on unknown writers and the publishers now leave editing and promotion very much to the author.

Bollocks.

I'm a new unknown writer and I was taken on by Rogers, Coleridge and White (one of the UK's best known agencies). Publishers definitely do not leave editing and promotion to the author. A commercial publisher pays you, assigns you an editor who works with you to hone that manuscript and will then put that book into stores and have a promotion team who will work to promote it.

Mirador Publishing website:
Less and less do we go into the big chains and browse for a good read. More of us turn to the internet for our books.

Ironically though, people turn to the internet to buy books that they have first seen in book stores. They use the shops to check out the inside of the book and then rely on the internet to pay less for it.

Even so, there are plenty of people browsing the Waterstones near my office every lunchtime.

Mirador Publishing website:
E-books are losing their novelty factor and are rapidly becoming the preferred medium for many readers, particularly the high volume reader. Amazon’s support of its Kindle Reader is growing daily and is a market that is set to ignite! Traditional publishers are terrified of this new technology and are desperately trying to control it with high pricing fixing and copyright blockades.

Bollocks.

Traditional (i.e. commercial) publishers are trying to work out ways of making the new technology work better for their profit line. They are not doing "copyright blockades" (whatever the hell that means).

Mirador Publishing website:
All of these pressures are undermining the traditional publishing model, forcing traditional publishing houses to further restrict investment in new authors and to stick with the handful of well known names.

Bollocks.

Commercial publishers publish new authors every week. You only have to open the book review section of your newspaper or check out your local store. The fact is, they can't rely on known sellers because they simply can't produce enough new books for them. They have to take a risk on new blood and they are best placed to assess that risk.

Even Stephen King, J K Rowling, Dan Brown and so on started out as debut novelists.

Mirador Publishing website:
Statistically, a publisher loses money on a new author. Think, if it were your money, would you put it into an unknown who’s convinced he’s just written the next Ulysses or are you going to take Dan Brown out for lunch and encourage him to hurry up with his next blockbuster?

Bollocks.

Publishers will pay an advance to an author based on the number of books they think they will sell. Some of those advances will prove to be a bust, some of them will be good investments.

J K Rowlings advance for her first 3 books was £3,000. The sales of the books transformed Bloomsbury into a massive publisher. That was a good investment.

Mirador Publishing website:
As a writer, you need to give your work the very best possible chance to succeed. This means tackling all routes to the reading public and not stubbornly clinging to archaic methods simply because it worked for centuries and ‘It’s Traditional’.

Those "archaic methods" relate to being paid up front for your work and authors find that it works just find.

I know that if given a choice between being paid for my work and paying someone else to publish my work, I'm going to go with the former every time because then at least I start off in the black.

Mirador Publishing website:
Our goal is clear. To make you a successful published author. To this end we will back you financially but we will also expect you to take a financial stake in your own success.

So Mirador will back you financially except for where they expect you to back yourself financially.

Good to know.

Mirador Publishing website:
you contribute part of the initial costs and in return we have your book prepared and printed. We will obtain an ISBN number. Your book will be listed on Gardners and Ingrams ensuring acceptability to retail shops. We will see that your book is listed on Amazon.

Note though that your book will not actually be placed in shops.

Mirador Publishing website:
We will provide you with a complete marketing programme to follow designed to push your book up the listings ensuring even greater exposure.

Authors should not be marketing their own book. That is the publisher's job. An author may want to assist (and that's often encouraged) but it isn't something that they should be doing alone.

Mirador Publishing website:
We will provide you with fifty copies of your book and ideas for creating your own personal distribution channels.

The publisher should be developing distribution channels - that's there job.

This suggests that the author will be doing their own distribution and will have paid for the privilege of doing so. Frankly, if an author's going to do that then they may as well go with a self-publisher like Lulu where at least they get to keep the fruits of their labour.

Mirador Publishing website:
We will provide you with 25% royalties on all future books sold, that’s three times the traditional rate.

A 25% royalty is meaningless if you're not selling copies. 25% of zero is zero.

And note that the author will have done all the hard work in getting those books sold, all so that Mirador can keep 75% of the profit.

Mirador Publishing website:
We will provide you with your own website promoting you as an author. We will list your book for sale on our own website as both hard copy and in e-book form.

Whoopdie do.

A website on its own is not enough to sell books. Having your book up for sale on a website that people are unlikely to have heard of in the first place is not enough to sell books.

Mirador Publishing website:
Our success depends upon the success of your book so you can be sure we will be working hard on your behalf.

I disagree. Mirador will have already received an upfront payment from the author (and from the other information on the website - this will be between £795 and £3,000). They're already in the money. It's the author who's down on the deal.

Mirador Publishing website:
Your contribution of only £795*

*This example is based on a 70,000 to 100,000 word novel if your book is over this price then request a personal quote.

That is a lot of money to spend on being published. Lulu will let you do the same thing a lot cheaper.

Mirador Publishing website:

http://www.miradorpublishing.com/The Reason for Mirador Pub.htmlA competitive retail price for your book of £8.99**​

http://www.miradorpublishing.com/The Hobble of the Successful.html

50 personal copies to sell or distribute.

**Remember with other publishers you will have to sell your novel for £15.00 on average in order to reclaim your investment. With our plan you will sell and make a profit!​

Bullshit. Where has this £15 figure come from?

Taking their example, if the cover price is £8.99 (which is still more expensive than most books in the UK, where the cover price will typically be between £6.99 and £7.99) and you've paid £795 for your 50 copies, then Mirador still comes out of this £345.50 ahead. You've paid £449.50 for 50 books. You can get that cheaper going to your local printer and doing it yourself.

Mirador Publishing website:
£2.00 royalties on each subsequent book sold.

That depends on whether you manage to sell any more books. By the time you've sold or given away your 50 free copies, you'll probably have tapped out your market.

Mirador Publishing website:

http://www.miradorpublishing.com/Self Publishing.htmlA complete local marketing support package.***​

***Including 100 A5 flyers and 4 A3 Posters

LOL. That's their marketing support package? How pathetic.

Mirador Publishing website:Many agents are simply not taking on new clients. Of those that are, many will only take you if you already have a publisher interested in your work. But hang on... wasn't that supposed to be...? Never mind. If you do eventually manage to interest an agent in your work you still have to convince a publisher.

Bollocks.

Again, I'm a new writer, I got an agent and I didn't have a publisher interested in my book already. That's my agent's job and she's already working on pimping my manuscript to editors she knows while I work on rewrites.

Mirador Publishing website:
Today due to financial pressures, the author is expected to be copy editor, publicist and sales department for their own book. For this the royalties remain pitifully low at around 7.5% and unless you are selling in millions you cannot expect to make a living from writing. The average novel sold through the traditional route only returns around £3,000 for the author. According to The Royal Society of Authors the average novelist earns £7,500 per year.

Yeah, I note that the one thing Mirador miss out from this is the fact that commercially published authors are paid an advance in addition to any royalties they receive.

Then there's the fact that the stuff about having to edit, publicise and sell yourself is all bullshit.

There is no information on who runs this company (beyond the contact name 'Sarah') or what its corporate structure is.

There's nothing about this publisher that would encourage me to sign away my book to them. Essentially, they're nothign more than a vanity outfit and I'd be surprised if many authors made back that initial payment.

MM
​

 

[Marian Perera]

There's a bit of a leap in logic from "you cannot expect to make a living from writing" to "therefore you should pay for publication". Even if I only make a few thousand from my writing, that's better than being in the red from the start.

 

[Little1]

There's a bit of a leap in logic from "you cannot expect to make a living from writing" to "therefore you should pay for publication". Even if I only make a few thousand from my writing, that's better than being in the red from the start.

Nicely said Queen.
To original poster - Ask them (your friends) what can they (the company) do for you that you can't get for free from LuLu or Creat Space?

 

[Momento Mori]

So I did some digging around on Google during my lunchbreak and discovered that Mirador Publishing has a sister company - Belvedere Publishing (which is linked to from the Mirador website here: http://www.miradorpublishing.com/Links.html).

Belvedere Publishing Website:
We are a traditionally based publisher with old fashioned values and principles. This means we do not charge the author for our services.

Actually a traditionally based publisher with old fashioned values and principles pays authors for their work.

Belvedere Publishing Website:
If your work is accepted we will publish it and ensure it is marketed and made available worldwide.

So basically they're taking worldwide rights. Given that I have never seen a Belvedere publishing book in my local bookstore, I can't see how they'd be able to get anything into shops worldwide.

But then there is that weasel word "available", which presumably means "available to order from" rather than "available in".

Belvedere Publishing Website:
We will occasionally work with authors when we feel a work has promise but needs some fine tuning but we will not undertake major editing.

But I thought that you were "a traditionally based publisher with old fashioned values and principles"? Those publishers usually engage in major editing.

Belvedere Publishing Website:
We are actively looking for novels of between 65,000 and 150,000 words in the following genres:
Thrillers
Comedy
Romance
Science Fiction
Fantasy
Erotica
Historical Fiction
Literary Fiction

The fact that they're looking to take such a broad range of genres is not a good sign. Publishers do better focusing on one specific genre and building up their reputation on it by focusing their marketing and promotion and distribution accordingly.

Belvedere Publishing Website:
Please allow four weeks for a response although in most instances our turnaround is much faster.

A suggested turn around time is a personal squick of mine. Slush piles can be huge things so giving a suggested response time usually means they're unprepared for the submissions.

Particularly revolting is the fact that Belvedere Publishing has a page where they reproduce reviews here: http://www.belvederepublishing.com/index_files/Page537.htm

You can see two reviews reproduced - one from The Book Reviewer and one from the Book of the Month Club. Interestingly, the websites for both The Book Reviewer and The Book of the Month Club are linked to from the Mirador website here: http://www.miradorpublishing.com/Links.html

Both review sites review the same book Sarah Luddington's The Prophecy. Even more interesting is that both sites identify the book as having been published through Mirador rather than Belvedere (although Mirador don't mention it on their website at all and Belvedere have it on their front page as coming soon).

Both review sites also have the exact same statement on their front pages:

Book of the Month Club Website:
Each month we select the greatest novel to be published. Many novels are missed by publishers and literary agents so we also search for those that have been missed by the traditional publishing industry. Last month we brought you The Return of the Hippy this month it is our great pleasure to bring you a blockbuster novel, The Prophecy, by a startling new author Sarah Luddington. A novel of horror, romance, sex and violence. What more could you want? A true paranormal romance. The book is published by Mirador Publishing who seem to be one of the few publishers taking on new writers at the moment. They are happy to take submissions of all genres including Sci-fi supernatural, adult content, romance, fantasy as well as the usual poetry, thrillers and adventure. So all you young writers who are out there looking for a publishing contract, give these guys a go. You just might be the next Dan Brown or J K Rowling.

The Book Reviewer Website:
Each month we select the greatest novel to be published. Many novels are missed by publishers and literary agents so we also search for those that have been missed by the traditional publishing industry. Last month we brought you The Return of the Hippy this month it is our great pleasure to bring you a blockbuster novel, The Prophecy, by a startling new author Sarah Luddington. A novel of horror, romance, sex and violence. What more could you want? A true paranormal romance. The book is published by Mirador Publishing who seem to be one of the few publishers taking on new writers at the moment. They are happy to take submissions of all genres including Sci-fi supernatural, adult content, romance, fantasy as well as the usual poetry, thrillers and adventure. So all you young writers who are out there looking for a publishing contract, give these guys a go. You just might be the next Dan Brown or J K Rowling.

Given this, I'd suggest it's not beyond the realms of probability to assume:

1. that Book of the Month Club and The Book Reviewer are owned and run by if not the same people who own/run Mirador and Belvedere Publishing, then people connected to them;

2. Book of the Month Club and The Book Reviewer are touted as being some way for authors to promote their book (and I'd be interested to know if any payment is required for those reviews).

Interestingly, the single contact name given on the Belvedere and Mirador websites is "Sarah" and The Prophecy just happens to be written by a Sarah. I'd therefore question whether Sarah Luddington has anything to do with either company. Given the fact that both Mirador Publishing and Belvedere publishing contain links to Sarah's personal webpage Dark Fiction (see http://www.belvederepublishing.com/index_files/Page525.htm and http://www.miradorpublishing.com/Links.html) I suspect that she is involved with both companies.

Belvedere Publishing Website:
Do you charge the author for publishing their work?
No! We pay you! We use the traditional system of paying an author royalties based on the sales of their book.

Actually the traditional system of paying an author is to pay them an advance first.

Belvedere Publishing Website:
Do you edit my work?
No, we expect the writer to ensure their work is up to publication standard.

No, actually it's the publisher's job to make sure that a manuscript is up to a publishable standard before publishing it.

Belvedere Publishing Website:
Where do you place my novel?
Your work will be listed on Gardners and Ingrams so that it is available in bookshops worldwide. We will also make it available on Amazon and well as our own storefront.

So they won't actually be in stores then.

Belvedere Publishing Website:
Do you pay advances?
No, we prefer to pay higher royalties on sales. You will discover we pay some of the highest royalties in the industry! We believe this encourages the author to be pro-active in marketing their work.

Oh, I don't doubt that you prefer to just pay royalties. Afterall, paying an advance means that you've actually made an upfront financial investment in the book, rather than rely on the author to get out there and make sales/buy copies so that you can pick up 75% of the price.

Belvedere Publishing Website:
Do you supply me with any copies of my book?
As the author, we would expect you to hold sufficient copies of your book for use at signings or other publicity initiatives you may undertake We will help guide you with marketing ideas and how to publicise your book locally. You would purchase personal copies from us at RRP less your royalty level.

Note how they don't actually answer the question they asked.

The translation of this seems to be "we expect you to buy copies of your book so that you can sell it".

Belvedere Publishing Website:
Can you help with artwork for the cover?
We will usually provide you with some royalty free images from which to select a cover, however if you wish a more bespoke cover then some artwork charges may apply.

So basically, you get a clipart cover. If you want something else, you have to pay for it.

I really hope that no one paid for the covers displayed on the Belvedere front page because they are revolting.

Belvedere Publishing Website:
Do You Help With Marketing?
Of course! As one of our authors, you will have access to our Author’s Services Website where you will find a variety of tools to aid you in the marketing and promotion of your book. Everything from ‘How To’ guides through to a Full Internet Awareness Module designed to publicise your book across all the major search engines.

Yes, they help with marketing by giving you a load of most likely useless information so that you can go out and do your own marketing.

Excellent.

Belvedere Publishing Website:
Literary agents are becoming more difficult to approach. One may forgiven for thinking that agents are only interested in Dan Brown or J K Rowling, always searching for the next Harry Potter or Da Vinci Code. To some extent this may be true. Literary agents generally have a huge slush pile to wade through, why should your novel be of interest to them? For every author that manages to secure an agent there are five hundred who do not.

Yes, it is difficult to secure an agent. However it is possible. Agents need new clients because existing ones will not necessarily produce manuscripts year after year.

The reason why so many writers do not get taken up by an agent is because their work either is not good enough or the agent does not think that they can sell it.

Belvedere Publishing Website:
Even when an agent agrees to represent you and your novel the battle is still only half-way there. Between you, you still need to convince a publisher to publish your novel.

True. My agent however is already in talks with editors about my book so that they know to expect it when it's ready. I've got 11 publishers in the UK lined up to read it. If it sells, great. If not, then my agent and I will work on the next book.

Belvedere Publishing Website:
Once your novel is published you still have much work to do with publicising your novel and ensuring you attend book signings and readings to maximise sales of your book.

Sales are not just dependent on what the author does. The publisher nees to get books into stores so that they can be sold.

MM

 

[CaoPaux]

You can see two reviews reproduced - one from The Book Reviewer and one from the Book of the Month Club. Interestingly, the websites for both The Book Reviewer and The Book of the Month Club are linked to from the Mirador website here: http://www.miradorpublishing.com/Links.html

That page:

Here are the details of some of our writers, both our own partners and others, also some fabulous reviews.

www.fictionwriter.co.uk

www.darkfiction.eu

www.belvederepublishing.com

www.bookofthemonthclub.co.uk

www.book-reviewer.com

Writers, partners and others, eh? FictionWriter is the home site of David Luddington, and the rest are registered to him.

 

[MumblingSage]

So Mirador will back you financially except for where they expect you to back yourself financially.

They've got your back...and your finances.

There's a bit of a leap in logic from "you cannot expect to make a living from writing" to "therefore you should pay for publication". Even if I only make a few thousand from my writing, that's better than being in the red from the start.

No kidding. I thought of an analogy that seemed quite clever but upon reflection was too obscene to post, but I'd note: I don't think any other activity besides writing would be put through this species of 'logic'. Can you?

 

[Momento Mori]

CaoPaux:
FictionWriter is the home site of David Luddington, and the rest are registered to him.

Interesting. So 2 of this "publisher's" authors are Sarah Luddington and David Luddington ... I wonder if they're related.

And strangely, both Book of the Month Club and The Book Reviewer each gave rave reviews to Sarah and David's books. I'm sure that's just a coincidence.

All smacks to me of a self-publisher who are now offering their "services" to others and in some cases, charging up front for the privilege.

It never ceases to amaze me why people don't do their research before signing up. I mean, if an author or group of authors couldn't get their own book commercially published, have instead self-published a book that you haven't heard of and then say they can do the same for you, wouldn't you think twice?

MM

 

[spongo]

Mirador - are they for real?

i had an encouraging offer from Mirador last week..or so i thought before reading this posting.
Rather than Googling their name...which told me very little, i tried googling their phone number instead, 01458 253535 - the results are surprising - a solicitor called Alan R Walton and a Judo club with John and Sarah Luddington shown as the organisers...couldnt find Mirador or Belvedere on google under this tel number.
Being a cynical git, i am also suspicious that they dont show a postal address either so i think i'll keep searching for the right agent for my first book.
After re-reading their website a number of times, it seems they want my cash so that they can run a little print on demand side line for themselves.
To be fair, for an IT illiterate it might work for the money. They wont place your book in the shops for you though - they only seem to be concerned with e-books and print on demand orders from the likes of Amazon. Great but how will the marketting be done?

 

[James D. Macdonald]

A worthwhile agent has sold books that you've heard of.

 

[Northerngem]

Mirador - What's the fuss?

These guys are okay.
They initially rejected my manuscript and suggested changes, I expected offers of expensive extras as with other publishers I'd tried before, but there were none. I sent it to and fro a few times, all without paying a penny. They produced a lovely cover for me and it wasn't until I was totally happy with everything did I pay anything. They seem to do exactly what they say they will and I'd say for a lot less than most partnership publishers charge.

There are a lot of rogues out there but this lot are okay.
Yes, I could have kept trying the traditional route, but for me this seems a good option.

 

[DreamWeaver]

Just curious, Northerngem--how much did you end up paying? Thanks!

 

[Momento Mori]

Hi, Northerngem, and welcome to AW.

Northerngem:
Yes, I could have kept trying the traditional route, but for me this seems a good option.

Have you made back what you spent in royalties on sales yet or do you expect to do so?

What kind of support have Mirador given you vis marketing and promotion?

MM

 

[Northerngem]

Mirador - What's the fuss?

They charged £475, which is £100 less than they quoted on their website. They said my book required less work than average or something, I'm not complaining! I was half expecting them to ask for extras after reading these posts, but nothing.

Just curious, Northerngem--how much did you end up paying? Thanks!

 

[Northerngem]

Mirador - What's the fuss?

Book is not on sale yet. But if I sell the personal copies they give me I'll immediately get half my investment back, so I don't expect it will take long to recover the rest. They are doing a website for me and they keep bombarding me with ideas to boost sales! They're putting a review on their own review site (helps google or something!) and lots of stuff like that.

Hi, Northerngem, and welcome to AW.



Have you made back what you spent in royalties on sales yet or do you expect to do so?

What kind of support have Mirador given you vis marketing and promotion?

MM

 

[Jamiekswriter]

Good luck Notherngem. I hope it works out for you!

 

[RobCurtis]

Book is not on sale yet.

I'm pleased that you're happy. Is your book out yet?

The competition you mentioned in your other post (some time ago) at http://www.writerstoybox.com/ looked interesting. How did you get on?

Mind you, some of the text on that website seems to match that at Mirador / Belvedere, e.g. http://www.fictionwriter.co.uk/index_files/Page671.htm

I wonder if there is a connection?

 

[Arcadia Divine]

[Publisher] Netherworld Books

http://www.netherworldbooks.com/index.htm

Does anyone know anything on this publisher? I found out about them from the OWW-SFF newsletter.

 

[Unimportant]

They do look quite new. They've only got a couple of books out, I think. While the cover art itself looked okay, the text/font didn't work for me.

I didn't like this bit:

Do you edit or proof check my work?
We will offer some editorial advice and make limited corrections to spelling or grammar but ultimately we expect the writer to ensure their work is up to a reasonable standard before it is submitted to us. We can recommend a proof editor if you wish but that would be outside of our arrangement with you and you would contract them yourself.

The first sentence of the copy used to advertise their first novel suggests that they indeed do not copy-edit:

The novelist, Neil Mann believes he knows what Hell feels like, his wife and son are dead.

I'm even less keen on this bit:

If your novel does not fit our requirements, you might like to try our sister company
Mirador Publishing.
They are a Partnership Publisher and whilst we cannot promise, they will look at a wider range of submission types

And the link takes you to Mirador, whose website says:

Your contribution of only £575* will give you your book.

 

[Arcadia Divine]

I didn't notice the bit on paying Mirador for your book, should I choose them. Really says a lot on Netherworld's part imo.

 

[Unimportant]

Mirador spouts a lot of crap on their website, and I think it's reasonable to assume that Netherworks supports what Mirador says since they link to them as their "sister company".

Me, I don't want to work with anyone who disses their fellow industry professionals like this. I don't agree with this definition of what literary agents do:

Well, what they used to do was to find new writers and persuade publishers to invest in them. They would negotiate between publisher and author to hammer out a royalty contract and negotiate an advance of royalties up front. They would guide on legal issues such as foreign or film rights. For this, they would take a fee usually of ten percent or the author's payments.

Today however, much of their time is spent nurturing existing clients, encouraging them to produce more and more of the same. That is of course when they're not fending off the ever growing slush piles from young hopefuls.

Or commercial publishers:

Publishers still try to dictate retail prices in order to cling on to their diminishing profits. Restrictive practises are reducing market exposure to writers and all the while the author still has no say and is carried along like a twig in a raging river.

All of these pressures are undermining the traditional publishing model, forcing traditional publishing houses to further restrict investment in new authors and to stick with the handful of well known names. Statistically, a publisher loses money on a new author.

 

[Arcadia Divine]

In all honesty, I took one look at Mirador's garbled website and closed out of it. The least they could do is hire a decent web programmer.

 

[marrelam]

Would love to hear any updates on this thread.

 

[Momento Mori]

If they're still charging then what more do you need to know?

MM