Midwest Literary Magazine

[M.R.]

First, let me state that I'm an idiot.

Now that we've cleared that up...

I've had a short story accepted with a small publishing. They've been around a while. Their acceptance rate in duotrope is about 35%- not the hardest to get into but not easy either. The journal itself seems have quality writing.

Two things are giving me an icky feeling

This page http://midwestliterarymagazine.com/about/

It uses an in house name. Editors change all the time so using an in house name doesn't set off alarm bells, its the claim that they all have doctorates, a fact that can't be checked for bullshit reasons. (I'd understand, we changes editors often or we can't always afford to pay editors and I do it myself, but we won't give this information because we respect you so much is a load of crap.)

The other thing that makes me writhe with discomfort is this http://midwestliterarymagazine.com/publishing/extras/

A lot of online magazines publish some books, but to me this crosses a big ethical line. (I may have submitted, but I know I don't have to let them publish the story, no matter what they're website states.)

The needy, desperate writer in me wants publishing credits! It's practically sacrilegious to even think about withdrawing, but the ethical part of me wants to take a bath.


Am I overeating? Also, if anyone has had an experience with them, I'd love to hear you input.

Thanks

 

[James D. Macdonald]

There's a thread about them over at writersdigest.com

They don't seem to be engaged in commercial publishing.

 

[HistorySleuth]

Oh my. If I were you I would have no problem withdrawing just by the links you posted. I have no experience with them. And by what I read, I wouldn't have any desire to have any experience with them. They don't make very clear which applies to the magazine and which applies to books.

You're not an idiot. Always check a place out before you submit. Just from their own words on their website, this is the take I get:

From the first link you gave:

MLM began as an experiment in literature.
* What would it mean to be a publisher that was completely quiet?

It would mean no one knows you exist. It would serve no purpose to the writer to submit.

The very idea that editors remain behind the scenes is revolutionary.

Not so revolutionary. There are a ton of fly by nights on the web with no experience. They don't post their names so you can't check them. If their editors really had doctorate degrees or industry experience why not say so? Because they don't want you to look them up, of course.

2. The motto of MLM is “The Quiet Press” and it is a philosophy. Our vision does not include any self-promotion. We strive toward one simple integrity, “keep the focus on the writers and their work.” We do not list the real names of our staff members or their credentials, or promote their books.

Why would you want a quiet publisher? How is that a good thing? You won't get any publishing credits if nobody sees it.

They don't list real names of staff? Who is editing? The lady who runs the laundry mat down the street?

We do not charge the writers to submit their work, nor do we charge readers for our monthly online magazine. We publish and sell anthologies. Those profits pay for the website etc.

I'm guessing the "etc." isn't going to include the authors? There is an awful lot of meaningless blah, blah, blah on this page. You said they accepted your work. Was there anything indicating how you were going to be paid? What rights they were taking?

Your second link:

Promotional video for YouTube or other social media sites, like Facebook etc. Includes your video featured on the MLM website for 1 month, or until the next book is released (whichever is longer). ($800)

You can do all that yourself for zero dollars. "For a month OR until the next book comes out." So I'm guessing a month turn around time from when you accept till they publish. Gads. Another book mill. I don't get this at all. Do they mean your book or one of their anthologies?

If you have to pay for all that as an extra, you might as well self publish.

How about their book publishing link:
http://midwestliterarymagazine.com/publishing/

"Exposure" through Amazon & Barnes & Nobles. So you may be able to order through the web but I wouldn't expect to see it physically in a book store. You can do that yourself by the way self publishing through those websites. Amazon has Createspace and B&N has PubIt.

The most interesting thing on that page is this. (Bolding is theirs by the way):

All publications are registered properly with the national authority.

Ummm... I honestly don't know what to make of that line, other than I am not filled with confidence that they have any clue what their doing.

The other items on that page sound like options you have to pay for by the words "you can chose" and "other services available." Professional editing being one of them. So otherwise, I would expect unprofessional editing.

I personally see no benefit to a writer in using them. I don't see any of this giving you a legitimate publishing credit either.

 

[M.R.]

I've been meaning to get back to you, but things got crazy last week.

You made a lot of valid points and I do not believe a writing credit from them actually counts. I decided to withdraw.

However, they published my story in December. I'm not the only writer they've done this to, though I might be the first who wanted to withdraw.

The full story is here, my take on it anyway. I suggest writers avoid these people like the plague. Above and beyond publishing my story and not telling me, they have an in perpetuity clause on their submission guidelines (that's the only "contract" they use) with the right to sell your work to affiliates.

There's a lot more but I'd like to keep this short.

In my not so humble opinion, Midwest Literary Magazine is a bottom feeder of the worst kind.

 

[HistorySleuth]

Im sorry to hear about your experience. I have no idea as to the law on the issue. But you say you didn't sign anything? No mention of paying you either I imagine.

Well, I guess you got to chalk it up to experience and on to bigger and better stories. There are a lot of excellent resources on AW and people willing to answer questions. I guess the positive thing you can take away from this is now you know to check out a publisher first before you submit so you can do your best to avoid this kind of thing in the future. Its all a learning process.

Good luck with your future stories and welcome to AW!

 

[para]

Writer Beware has a post up about these folks: http://accrispin.blogspot.com/2011/03/submission-guidelines-to-beware-of.html

 

[DaveKuzminski]

Gee, all they really need at this point is for someone to submit something to them and then for the real author to sue for copyright violation when they publish it.

 

[Ziggy77]

Payment?

So I'm not 100% sure this is the right area in the forum to start a thread on this, but here goes:

A few months ago I had a nonfiction piece published by Midwest Literary Magazine. On the day it was published I got an e-mail from them saying the piece had been selected for their print anthology and that payment would follow shortly (I'm assuming a small symbolic sum but still).

It's been three months since that e-mail. The anthology was released last week, so I sent them an e-mail requesting a contributor coupon to buy the anthology (this is something they say they always give contributors) and, very politely, asked about payment too. I got sent an automatic e-mail from them that said my e-mail had been opened by their support division and that someone would reply to me within 24 hours. It's now been five days!

My question has two parts: Was it wrong to politely ask about payment and how long do you think I should wait before I send a follow-up e-mail for the contributor coupon?

Hope everyone's doing well!

Ziggy

 

[HapiSofi]

Dear Midwest Literary Magazine: I've been going over my contract, and as far as I can tell, I've retained all Public Complaint and Mockery Rights pertaining to, and in connection with, your magazine. Is there anything I'm missing? If not, don't worry -- it's no big deal. If I don't hear from you soon, I'll just assume that I do retain those rights, and exercise them accordingly.

Cheers --

Ziggy77


[Attach copies of all previous correspondence, in reverse chronological order.]​

 

[Ziggy77]

Hi Hapisofi and thanks for the reply!

So let me see if I'm reading this right: you're saying I was right to e-mail them and I should e-mail them again, possibly in a less polite and more direct fashion or...!?!?!

Ziggy

 

[Ziggy77]

Sent them a small follow up note today.... Fingers crossed they'll reply!

Ziggy

 

[HapiSofi]

I have occasionally moved otherwise immovable entities by replying to their email, "I do retain the right to make fun of this in public."

 

[jpon]

Don't hold your breath waiting for a reply, Ziggy. Looks like they scammed both of us. I asked for my contributor coupon over a week ago with no response, and have also sent a follow up email, again with no response. Sounds like the business model here is to publish anything decent and then make money by charging contributors for copies of the anthology. I wish I'd seen this thread before I got involved with these guys. I will certainly be more diligent in the future.

 

[Ziggy77]

Hey Jpon!

You're in the new anthology too?! Aha!

First of all congrats for the publication, regardless of what's going on now with the anthology!!!

Yep, it's now been ten days since my first e-mail to them, that their support department opened immediately and said they'd get back to me within 24 hours about... Also five days since my follow up e-mail...

I'm not sure if I should give them a little time and send them a couple of more e-mails over the next say 10-15 days or if I should do something more drastic, i.e. along the lines of HapiSofi's suggestion, right away....

I hope you don't mind my asking but what do you intend to do with the anthology and MLM? Will you keep e-mailing them or buy the anthology without the contributor coupon or...?

Ziggy

 

[jpon]

Hi Ziggy,

Congrats to you too on the publication.

This is actually a tough call. MLM has published their magazine online on a fairly regular schedule for nearly a year. They post job listings and updates. Anthologies have been released as promised. They may indeed be sincere in their publishing goals and may just be naive enough to think that charging contributors for an anthology is a legitimate income source. But their secrecy and non response says otherwise.

I went ahead and ordered a copy of the anthology for my records, but having to purchase a copy of my own writing (in a book with a cheap clipart cover btw) really says "scam" to me. I might as well have self published. But worse is that my story is now officially "published," although practically no one will see it, and I am precluded from having it honestly published elsewhere.

When the anthology arrives, I'll email them again, expressing my concerns. If I again receive no response, I will begin taking some action.

First is to contact various literary databases, present our evidence and ask that they remove MLM from their listings. (I've had other scammers removed in this way before. Most database operators are very receptive to this kind of info.) The databases are the primary source of advertising for journals like MLM, so, if successful, this could hit them hard and shrink their submissions considerably. The more writers who express their concerns to places like Duotrope, P&W, New Pages and others, the more likely they will pay attention. Depending on how much effort I want to put into this, it might be worth trying to contact other writers in the anthologies to see if they have been scammed too, and to enlist their help in this cause.

There are many other forums in which to spread the word about these guys too. I am also fairly well connected in the lit biz, and you can bet I will start spreading the word through my network, which should spread through my contacts.

I have already tried to track MLM down on a WhoIs search, but they are using an anonymous registry service (which again says "scam"). However, there are other ways to discover their identities, although that will take a little work. Depending on their response and how angry I still am, I may go this route.

I am angriest, of course, at myself for failure to do due diligence on MLM.

As you can tell I have no respect or patience for people who prey on writers to feed their greed.

 

[James D. Macdonald]

If it's any comfort, it's unlikely that there's much (if any) money coming in to them for these anthologies, either.

 

[M.R.]

It's been months since I learned my story was published by them. Since, I gained nothing from our relationship, I published my story online via smash words. Just as I had started to cool off I got an email from "Anthony Shields" telling me that based upon our contract that I was allowed to do that only if I credit their magazine in a positive way and that I must remove what I said about them from my website.

I could rant on them for hours, but I'll just rant for a paragraph.


They have a history changing their website based on people's complaints. When I submitted my story they claimed the "editors" had doctorates in literature. I challenged this idea and now they're just authors. The guy behind this is smart enough to know that looking legit goes a long way. I'm pretty sure the editing "job" is as real as the Lochness Monster. But even if it is real I have two problems. It's a job that requires more secrecy than the CIA. Said editor can't tell anyone they work there and can't put it on their resume` or somebody might know the name of an editor, which MLM must keep secrete for the writers benefit.(Insert eye role) Two, if they can pay a decent wage for all these "editors" they supposedly have why can't they pay an author five bucks for a story? He/she selling the anthologies on a variety of international sites and in places like the Philippines, these books do sell well. I don't think he makes much of any given sale, but, between anthologies, editing and marketing services, and contests, I do think there is cumulative effect that is profitable. According to the Anthony Shields, they don't pay their authors because the magazine has a right to make a profit. What, and the authors don't have a right to get paid for their work?

On a side note,your book published by them, it will be produced through create space and only sold on Amazon.

Okay, I'm done ranting. However, I would say that if you've had a bad experience with MLM, I strongly suggest you send a message to Duotrope. Their presence on Duotrope adds to their false legitimacy and exposes them to thousands of unsuspecting writers. I've sent two letters to little effect, but I don't really expect Duotrope to remove/change the listing based on my comments alone. This is another thing that has a cumulative effect. I'd like duotrope to pull them from the listings as this would severely reduce their prospective victims, but at minimum the listing needs to be changed from occasionally pays, to non-paying market.

M.R.

 

[HapiSofi]

It's been months since I learned my story was published by them. Since, I gained nothing from our relationship, I published my story online via smash words. Just as I had started to cool off I got an email from "Anthony Shields" telling me that based upon our contract that I was allowed to do that only if I credit their magazine in a positive way and that I must remove what I said about them from my website.

See? Pleading doesn't motivate them nearly as well as making fun of them in public.

Do you suppose you could provoke Anthony Shields to write back and say more unbelievably dumb and self-revealing nonsense? You only need a few more exchanges on this level to have enough material for an Anthony Shields Quote Page.

I could rant on them for hours, but I'll just rant for a paragraph.

In your position, I'd rant too. Try to channel it into humor.

They have a history changing their website based on people's complaints. When I submitted my story they claimed the "editors" had doctorates in literature.

Do they have any official ties with the university? Do they use the name, use the facilities, anything like that? If so, you should tell the university about those phantom doctorates in literature.

I challenged this idea and now they're just authors. The guy behind this is smart enough to know that looking legit goes a long way. I'm pretty sure the editing "job" is as real as the Lochness Monster. But even if it is real I have two problems. It's a job that requires more secrecy than the CIA. Said editor can't tell anyone they work there and can't put it on their resume or somebody might know the name of an editor, which MLM must keep secrete for the writers' benefit. (Insert eye role)

I agree. It's all to the benefit of the editor.

In the meantime, his secretiveness imposes severe limits on what he can do to you.

Two, if they can pay a decent wage for all these "editors" they supposedly have why can't they pay an author five bucks for a story?

Because the point isn't to pay the writers; it's to pay the editor. You really should talk to the university about this.

He/she is selling the anthologies on a variety of international sites and in places like the Philippines, these books do sell well. I don't think he makes much of any given sale, but, between anthologies, editing and marketing services, and contests, I do think there is cumulative effect that is profitable.

That would be my guess. I can't see many other reasons to run a magazine the way this one is run.

According to the Anthony Shields, they don't pay their authors because the magazine has a right to make a profit.

YEEEEEEE-HAW! DID YOU HEAR THAT? A MAGAZINE HAS A RIGHT TO MAKE A PROFIT!

This, dear M.R., is why the world needs an Anthony Shields quote page. Do you know the standard joke about profits and magazines?

Q. How do you wind up with a million dollars when you're publishing a magazine?

A. Start with ten million dollars.​

Get out there and start poking A.S. with a stick. Send him impudent email. Put up flyers around campus making fun of him. Do anything you can to get him to say more things. This guy's got so much candy in him that we may never run out.

What, and the authors don't have a right to get paid for their work?

The author certainly does, though the printer generally gets paid first.

On a side note,your book published by them, it will be produced through create space and only sold on Amazon.

Okay, I'm done ranting. However, I would say that if you've had a bad experience with MLM, I strongly suggest you send a message to Duotrope. Their presence on Duotrope adds to their false legitimacy and exposes them to thousands of unsuspecting writers. I've sent two letters to little effect, but I don't really expect Duotrope to remove/change the listing based on my comments alone. This is another thing that has a cumulative effect. I'd like duotrope to pull them from the listings as this would severely reduce their prospective victims, but at minimum the listing needs to be changed from occasionally pays, to non-paying market.

M.R.

IMO, the real tragedy here is that Anthony Shields and his publishing projects aren't the kind of thing that 4chan and their relatives normally play with. Those guys are really good at making fun of pompous stupidity.

 

[James D. Macdonald]

"Anthony Shields" BTW, in case it wasn't obvious, is a pseudonym.

Poor "Anthony"! They can't sue you, since pseudonyms can't sue anyone. If they did file a suit they'd break cover and everyone would discover who it really is. (The guy in the dish room? An enterprising high-schooler?)

Mock them. Encourage others to mock them. And find an honest magazine to submit your work to.

 

[Harper K]

One other thing to note about them is that under their "Authors" section, they appear to have just used the bios that the authors sent with their submissions, rather than asking authors for a more reader-friendly bio. In a number of cases, this exposes an author's phone number, street address, e-mail address, and other personal info.

Plus, a number of the bios are cut off halfway through a word or sentence -- another punch to the reader-friendliness of the magazine.

I'll send a note to Duotrope, as well. I've never submitted to MLM, but I know some people who have.

 

[Ziggy77]

Hey Jpon,

Thanks for your reply to my message and apologies it took me so long to get back to you on this.

To be honest I still haven't ordered the anthology. As you say, it's a tough call...

What I did do though, after reading this thread, your message and people's advice here is send them five e-mails in total, the last one being a little "threatening" in a very polite way. I told them I'd been trying to get in touch with them for over a month, listed the dates of my previous e-mails to them, and said if I don't hear from them within 7 days I'll be forced to take an alternate route to resolve this issue. Surprise, surprise they sent me an e-mail within 24 hours!

They said they took so long because they were trying to find the right person to help me (insert laugh here), they sent me the contributor coupon code for the anthology, said they seem to have lost the records regarding my payment so could I send them the e-mail they sent me re payment? Oh and payment is $10 via paypal! So I forwarded the e-mail and of course have heard nothing back from them and no $10 either... I think this week I'll start bugging them again...

Notifying Duotrope sounds like an excellent idea actually. Oddly enough Duotrope had removed them a couple of months ago for about two weeks; I wonder if that had anything to do with people having bad experiences with them or...

Ziggy

 

[CaoPaux]

Recovered from 7/10/11:

Yesterday, 08:28 AM
M.R.
New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin

HapiSofi:

I think there was a little confusion. The website claimed that they have PhD's but like with a "real" name, evidence is lacking. They just claimed to have them from a "Prestigious University," but of course offered nothing verifiable.

As far a poking... I'm proud of what I've done. I've been public about my experience with them on this website, in thread on the writer's Digest Forums, on my website, and I notified Victoria Strauss of my experience. Having said that.

I don't know anything about a quotes page, but if you explain what it is, I might see about setting it up. Really though, the best way to deal with them, in my opinion, is to send letters to Douotrope. That's how they get most of their victims and I think getting their listing removed would harm them.

Yesterday, 02:49 PM
HapiSofi
Hagiographically Advantaged
Absolute Sage

M.R., I actually went and combed through the lists of contributors to MLM and its anthologies. The writers who've been published more than once are fairly evenly distributed among the volumes, so I'd say there's a real submission and selection process going on.

I also did spot checks on some of the repeating writers, and they're real. They're almost completely uncommercial, but every writer I checked had a history of also being published in other literary fanzines -- ones that have real names and addresses associated with them.

We can therefore identify MLM as one more island in the MFA Archipelago. It's more pretentious than most, and less prestigious than some (about half the writers I spot-checked didn't list it among their credentials), but it's home to the same migratory population of writers who get published throughout the rest of the archipelago.

I'll stand by my earlier statement that it's bizarre to claim that a magazine has a right to make a profit. It's especially odd in that milieu, where success as a writer often takes the form of grants, fellowships, and teaching positions.

(I think it would almost be funny if someone were running a literary fanzine as a profitable scam. My guess is that in a world where publishing credits are the real currency, it could take a long time for anyone to notice that money was consistently going astray.) (But I digress.)

You'll have to decide for yourself whether MLM is worth your time. It is what it is. The question is whether that's what you want.
__________________
Winner of the Best Drycleaner on the Block Award.

Yesterday, 11:27 PM
M.R.
New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin

HappiSofi,

I was just mocking because I got the impression some people wanted a mocking. This is was my mistake. I've deleted the mocking, not because anything I said was bad, but because it resulted in commentary which benefits MLM.

To wit. I don't think that there is anything intrinsically wrong with any business having a goal of making a profit. Lots of magazines do make a profit and some of them even sell fiction.

The problem is that MLM uses the desire to make money as an excuse to not pay writers. And that isn't even a stand alone problem. I know the magazine calls itself "prestigious" but to me its like their former claim to employ editors with PhD's. Where's the proof?

To be prestigious is to be noteworthy, and by noteworthy, I don't mean not paying authors and all the other crap they've gain attention for. To me prestigious magazine are not only known for accepting good work but by acting with integrity. Clearly, we don't use the same definition for the word.

Anyway, it's not a matter of whether it's worth my time. I waste plenty of time watching cats bark on Youtube. If even one writer is saved the trouble I've had with them, I call that well worth my time.

But, the fact is, I don't need to do a thing more than I've done. MLM will hang itself... eventually. In the meantime, I encourage writers to choose other magazines. There are so many good ones. Why waste time chasing questionable writing credits where the only pay out is you giving up undefined rights to your work? Where's the upside in that?

M.R.

Today, 12:28 AM
HapiSofi
Hagiographically Advantaged
Absolute Sage

I wish you the best of luck in future with your writing.
__________________
Winner of the Best Drycleaner on the Block Award.

 

[allz28]

Last I heard, many people say that Glenn Lyvers is the man behind MLM (the so called, Anthony Shields). I'm not sure if it's true, but it seems likely.

 

[LillyPu]

What's meant by MFA Archipelago?

Recovered from 7/10/11:

I'm probably misreading this, not clear who said it from the recovered posts: "We can therefore identify MLM as one more island in the MFA Archipelago. It's more pretentious than most, and less prestigious than some (about half the writers I spot-checked didn't list it among their credentials), but it's home to the same migratory population of writers who get published throughout the rest of the archipelago."

What's meant by MFA Archipelago? Do you mean MFA Archipelago, as in MFA-run lit mags? Because as far as I can tell, Midwest Literary Magazine is in no way associated with any university. MLM would be an embarrassment to submit to, or list as a writing credit. Although they might be mistaken sometimes, at first glance, because of similar names, with the very prestigious Mid-American Review out of Bowling Green.

Can it be said MLM is a sham? And now they're publishing books? In their submission page they say something about "services" which usually means for purchase.

Interesting (sic) in having your book published? We are now accepting full manuscripts by email.
Send us your manuscript.
Why submit to be published through MLM?
* You gain exposure through Amazon.com and elsewhere.
* We consider first-time authors and take you seriously.
* All publications are properly assigned a MLM ISBN.
* You are not self-published. We are not a vanity press.
* We take care of your book cover, bar codes, absolutely everything.
* Professional editing and other services available.
* You are paid for every book sold. You pay nothing out of pocket.
* We accept a small percentage of manuscripts. Accepted works are respected.
* We do not charge reading fees.

 

[James D. Macdonald]

"MFA Archipelago" was HapiSofi's term, and (I suspect) is an allusion to The Gulag Archipelago (the book by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn about the Soviet prison camps). I don't believe she meant MLM (with its unfortunate acronym) is put out by MFAs or associated with a university, but rather that it's the sort of place where MFAs are confined.

* You are not self-published. We are not a vanity press.

What an odd thing to say! Why would they feel the need?

* Professional editing and other services available.

Available?