Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 2

James D. Macdonald

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Thanks all. The most common advice from those in the know seems to be putting it aside for a while. If I had just forged ahead on my own, I would've probably gone right back into editing it and made one full edit through the book while it was fairly fresh in my mind (fixing blatant inconsistencies, for example), and then put it aside for a while so that when I came back to it it wouldn't seem quite so bad. What do you think of that Uncle Jim? Do you think can be good as well, or would you advise against it?


Does it work for you? If so, then by all means carry on.

------------------------

At some point you will have to deal with what's on the page, not what's in your head.

Will this necessarily be fun and easy? No....
 

Me&BacchusGoIntoABar

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Thanks. I don't know yet if it works for me or not. I could try it. OTOH, if it sounds like a big enough mistake to those that have traveled the road and know things that I do not, then I would of course want to consider that.
 

Krintar

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"If the things that work for me don't work for you as a writer, then writing is probably not for you."
It's not short for that. Nobody was saying that. Rewriting is a very (many would say the most) important part of the process, one which just about always takes far longer than the first draft, and if you can't hold interest in a story through that part of the process then in all likelihood you'll never finish anything to a publishable standard; or, to put it more concisely, writing novels probably isn't for you.
 

MacAllister

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SoloArtist, that's going to vary pretty wildly, depending on your process. Maybe Krintar's revisions take much, much longer than writing first draft. That's certainly not universal, though.
 
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smsarber

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Soloartist, I hate to reread my own stuff. I find myself skimming passages. That makes editing harder than it has to be, still, it is a necessary process. Leaving a piece be for a while is widely-held as good advice--but that is all it is. Advice. There are no hard and fast rules to this. Try different approaches, you will find the one that works for you. There is a lot of trial and error in the writing world. I personally like to leave things for a while because when I get back to it I may see something that is totally different in the piece that I didn't even realize I had touched upon, or maybe a whole new direction it could go if I wanted to. It gives you possibilities you didn't know existed. But if you find that it works to write a story or a novel, then the next day start to edit and rewrite, then who are we to say it's wrong?
 

MacAllister

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I give up. You people seem to be deliberately missing my point.
I rather suspect you're not being nearly as clear as you think. It's a fairly common phenomenon. You've made a couple of broad assertions as if they were universal truths, and other writers -- experienced writers, too, some of us -- may tend to resist that.

What did you expect? Obsequious agreement?
 
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bearilou

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I rather suspect you're not being nearly as clear as you think. It's a fairly common phenomenon. You've made a couple of broad assertions as if they were universal truths, and other writers -- experienced writers, too, some of us -- may tend to resist that.

What did you expect? Obsequious agreement?


I suppose I would be interested in hearing what the writing non-rereaders do for their revision process since I think that would benefit Solo the most.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Back in the old days of the pulps, some of the pulp writers (Mighty Men and Women of Yore, TM) were able to write publishable first drafts. Out of the typewriter, into the envelope, then on to the next.

Where will we find their like again?

For myself, I hate my first drafts. They're horrible. Cringeworthy. I feel this way even if others who read them are praising them. I recognize that the reaction is mine, and subjective. What helps me is some time to get away from remembering how wonderful I thought it would be before I started, and how much I've fallen short of how I'd imagined it.

Thanks. I don't know yet if it works for me or not. I could try it.

You should try it. You should try lots of things. How else will you find what works for you?

"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne,
Thassay so hard, so sharp the conquering,
The dredful Ioy, that alwey slit so yerne...."

-- Geoffrey Chaucer (The Parliament of Fowls)
 

BigWords

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Back in the old days of the pulps, some of the pulp writers (Mighty Men and Women of Yore, TM) were able to write publishable first drafts. Out of the typewriter, into the envelope, then on to the next.

Lester Dent, Joe Archibald, William Hope Hodgson... Maybe even a few others.

I can't remember the name of the author, but there was a guy who started typing and once he reached his page count he sent it off to the publishers, starting tryping straight away for his next book. (It's the guy whose books Neil Gaiman collects, if that rings any bells...)
 

Izz

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I suppose I would be interested in hearing what the writing non-rereaders do for their revision process since I think that would benefit Solo the most.
I'm not a rereader, generally, but i'm able to do lots of editing passes on my own stories (short fiction or novel length). For me it's an attitude thing. When i read a novel written by someone else my primary focus is to enjoy the story. Once i know the story i don't see any point in rereading (there are exceptions, but they're very few and far between). However, when i reread/edit my own work my focus is different. It's not to enjoy the story, it's to improve the story. Reading critically rather than for pleasure. To begin with it took a whole lot of effort to get into that mode, but now i have no trouble flicking the switch.

If only flicking it back off was as easy...
 
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Izz

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Just so I'm clear on this, when you talk about someone who is a rereader and someone who is not a rereader, what does that mean?

A rereader puts the work aside for a while and then rereads it? And a non-rereader does not do that?
I was using the term in the context that AMB the Creative used it, which i understood to be reading something again after having read it once (either my own work or someone else's work). So conversely, someone who is not a rereader would be someone who does not enjoy reading books that they've already read.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Something else about the pulps: In those days copyeditors had latitude. They could do anything with the stories that they wanted. H. P. Lovecraft worked as a copyeditor, and he would throw Cthulhu material into the unlikeliest places.
 

Amb the Creative

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If you lose all interest in a story after one pass, writing is probably not for you - Writing Is Rewriting after all. And if your attitude to your own work is not the aforementioned, then why make a comment like that? It's irrelevant.

Rewriting is a very (many would say the most) important part of the process, one which just about always takes far longer than the first draft, and if you can't hold interest in a story through that part of the process then in all likelihood you'll never finish anything to a publishable standard; or, to put it more concisely, writing novels probably isn't for you.

Intended offense or not, I'm taking this as a challenge.

If I'm not meant to write novels, then I'm screwed cause I can't see myself doing anything else.

Perhaps the reason it doesn't work with me is that I haven't completely forgotten a piece before going back to it. I was working on just one project at the time. Now I'm working on another novel, but I still am working on the rewrite of the first simply because I cannot stand to have it sit any longer without anything being done on it.
 
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HConn

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There are some writers who never go back to edit a book after they finish a draft. They write a paragraph, fiddle with it, revise it, get it where they want, then never touch it again except on editorial order. And there's nothing wrong with that.
 

Amb the Creative

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I say edit once then get feedback. Cause without that feedback, how do you know how to edit what?
 

smsarber

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Amb the Creative, don't let anyone--especially someone who doesn't know you and hasn't read your work--tell you you don't have what it takes to be a novelist. Nobody has the right to say something like that, and on behalf of the rest of us here at AW, I apologize for Krintar's statement. Too many good writer's have been discouraged by less.

Keep writing!
 
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Me&BacchusGoIntoABar

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Thanks man, although I don't think anyone said that to me in this discussion. Krintar was responding to someone else at the time s/he said that.
 

smsarber

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Thanks man, although I don't think anyone said that to me in this discussion. Krintar was responding to someone else at the time s/he said that.
You're right, oopsie! I edited my post to address Amb the Creative. I guess I got a little confused *blushing* ;)
 

euclid

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May I change the subject?

Jim, I've had a friend read chapter 1 of my new WIP. He picked out three phrases that he said were "passive" constructions.

I'm not at all clear what this means, or why these should be weeded out. I did a search to see if I could find something about this in Volume 1, but without much success. Could you point me at a relevant post?

Thanks.
 

HConn

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I say edit once then get feedback. Cause without that feedback, how do you know how to edit what?

Which is fine for learning to write, but the goal ought to be the ability to judge the quality of your own work. Beta readers are great, but it's more important to [URL deleted at webmaster's request--JDM]be the expert.
 
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