Hello fellow writers. I'm a first time author of children's picture books. I have been offered three hybrid publishing deals but two of the publishers refused to meet with me or even do a zoom call. I thought this was odd the first time but when it happened a second time I wondered if this is how the industry works. Still seems odd to give money to a complete stranger who you can only contact on email. Does anyone have any experience of this? I really don't know what to think.
Hybrid publishing deals
- Thread starter Erminiafaith
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Can you share why you are entertaining hybrid deal offers instead of seeking publication with trade presses who bear all the financial investment?
I would suggest looking up the individual hybrid outfits in the forum's Bewares section.
I would suggest looking up the individual hybrid outfits in the forum's Bewares section.
Retracting my original remark (below) because I think my view doesn't meet AW's prescribed nomenclature
afaik, "hybrid-publishing" is a fancy term for vanity presses, which are something you don't want to touch.
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Have you checked the publishers out in our Bewares and Recommendations threads? There are a lot of scammers around.
(In the meantime you might want to pop up and post a hello in the New Member's Thread. Then someone will be along with advice about how get maximum value from this place. )
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It's dodgy - don't send money, and don't sign anything. Stick around here and you'll learn what to look for.
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To be honest: I don't know of any 'hybrid' publishers who are any less of a scam than the Nigerian princes who email you wanting you to give them your money. So in a sense, yes that is how that particular underbelly sector works, but it's a scam pure and simple. All they want is your money.
Any time you pay a publisher, they are a vanity press, no matter what they say. "Hybrid" publishers, "hybrid" models, are just another facet of vanity publishing meant to make you think you are getting a traditional deal and only paying "some" of the costs. If you think you have a deal, the publisher should be paying all of the costs.
Vanity publishing is usually (almost always) to be avoided and often is a scam. It can have its place as long as the author knows what it is and aren't being tricked into thinking they are actually getting a publishing deal - i.e. if a sports team wants to pay for copies of a book to distribute among its members, someone wants a book of recipes printed for family members, or even just someone who is aware of how publishing works but doesn't want to submit/be rejected or self-publish and is willing to pay one of those outfits - but in those cases there are no need for terms like "hybrid publishing" imo because the author is aware of what they are doing.
You might already know some of this but in another post you said you had a deal on the table and here you also say you have been offered deals. These are not actual publishing deals. These are simply options, paid options, that have been presented to you. You are not getting any sort of proper "deal" as it is normally considered. Please know this. I don't mean to sound harsh or like I am trying to knock what you think might be deals - but just trying to let you know that they are not really publishing deals, as such, if they want you to pay. They are likely trying to trick you.
Also, yes, I do think it's odd they're not willing to at least talk to you on Zoom - not so much not meeting in person, but not agreeing to Zoom is suspect - especially given how much these outfits charge.
Vanity publishing is usually (almost always) to be avoided and often is a scam. It can have its place as long as the author knows what it is and aren't being tricked into thinking they are actually getting a publishing deal - i.e. if a sports team wants to pay for copies of a book to distribute among its members, someone wants a book of recipes printed for family members, or even just someone who is aware of how publishing works but doesn't want to submit/be rejected or self-publish and is willing to pay one of those outfits - but in those cases there are no need for terms like "hybrid publishing" imo because the author is aware of what they are doing.
You might already know some of this but in another post you said you had a deal on the table and here you also say you have been offered deals. These are not actual publishing deals. These are simply options, paid options, that have been presented to you. You are not getting any sort of proper "deal" as it is normally considered. Please know this. I don't mean to sound harsh or like I am trying to knock what you think might be deals - but just trying to let you know that they are not really publishing deals, as such, if they want you to pay. They are likely trying to trick you.
Also, yes, I do think it's odd they're not willing to at least talk to you on Zoom - not so much not meeting in person, but not agreeing to Zoom is suspect - especially given how much these outfits charge.
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Not all the hybrid publishers are scams... I am published by indie presses, which are hybrid by their nature, and I liked the interaction with all of them (five indie presses/ 15 books, plus other presses for which anthologies I contributed). They are different from vanity publishers (I have met those too, but I did not publish more than a short story in an anthology with them). (Yes, one of the five indie presses closed during the pandemic, but many other small and medium publishing houses and other kinds of economic units closed during the pandemic...)
3 out of 5 offered public launching of the books too, 3 out of 5 (different 3) had my books on the table at international book fairs, 2 of 5 are selling the books online too, I got forewords and book recommendations written by known writers and literary critics and also published in literary magazines...
I have not met all of them in person (but yes, 4 out of five - the fifth is located at 500 km distance and this is the reason) and I have never used zoom to anyone, but I have talked extensively by e-mail, whatsapp, FB messenger with the ones who are not located in my city.
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ETA - I’m removing this comment as I wasn’t sure if by indie you meant independent or indie as in self-publishing. And I don’t want to cause further confusion on the thread. I’ll point instead to the definitions Maryn provided below.
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Hi, I have written to about 50 publishers and about 20 responded saying it was not for them. Three offered hybrid deals. Reading around the subject it appears that many children's books are written in house or by celebs. I can't seem to get an in.
Heads up, everyone. We need to insist on using publishing terminology as the site and its owner have agreed each is defined. You can see the full list of abbreviations, terminology, and slang here, but let me make it simple by copying the relevant ones here.
Hybrid Publisher – Any publishing house combining the aspects of trade publishing and self publishing, with the author paying for all or most of the cost of publishing.
Indie publishing – Self-publishing, as opposed to trade publishing. The term intends to remove the stigma once associated with self-publishing, although it's also used to imply publishing with a legitimate small press, further disguising the fact that a work is self-published.
Trade publishing – Publishers who sell to the book trades, that is, to book stores. Most books that are published for general consumers, including genre fiction, are published by trade publishers.
Traditional publishing – a term without meaning in the publishing industry, popularized by vanity presses and those promoting self-publishing.
Vanity Press, Vanity Publisher – Any publishing house at which the writer pays to be published and which makes its profits from those authors rather than from book sales.
We expect everyone at this site to use the terms correctly.
Hybrid Publisher – Any publishing house combining the aspects of trade publishing and self publishing, with the author paying for all or most of the cost of publishing.
Indie publishing – Self-publishing, as opposed to trade publishing. The term intends to remove the stigma once associated with self-publishing, although it's also used to imply publishing with a legitimate small press, further disguising the fact that a work is self-published.
Trade publishing – Publishers who sell to the book trades, that is, to book stores. Most books that are published for general consumers, including genre fiction, are published by trade publishers.
Traditional publishing – a term without meaning in the publishing industry, popularized by vanity presses and those promoting self-publishing.
Vanity Press, Vanity Publisher – Any publishing house at which the writer pays to be published and which makes its profits from those authors rather than from book sales.
We expect everyone at this site to use the terms correctly.
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If the author is paying for all or most of the cost of publishing, how does hybrid publishing differ from vanity publishing where authors pay to be published? I've read articles re: hybrid publishing, listened to people involved inhybrid discuss their experiences, and I am still not grokking the difference. What aspects of trade publishing are included in hybrid publishing?
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Semantics.
(Less snarkily: if I parse Maryn's definitions, it's where the publisher's profits come from - a hybrid publisher might take payment from authors, but still makes its money from book sales.)
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I mean small indie press, as per a part of Maryn's definition - „it's also used to imply publishing with a legitimate small press”. And I would have been interested in your comment.
The aspects of trade publishing included in hybrid publishing are: having the foreword and the fourth cover written by a known writer or literary critic (yes, in my country the writer who is publishing the book would not write himself the fourth cover, it is regarded as bragging and impolite. Somebody else, more known, should endorse it), having a public launching, having the book displayed at book fairs and in half of the cases, having the book displayed for sale on the publishing house's online bookshop (often in other e-shops too). Also, often writers and literary critics write about the book in literary magazines. The publishing house helps with marketing too, sometimes they make book trailers and swag photos.
That is not unusual. The odds of any manuscript being accepted by a trade publisher are between 1:100 and 1:1000.
If you'd be willing to name the publishers, we can give you more specific information about those presses and whether or not they're considered respectable versus predatory scammers.
I don't think that's true, but children's books aren't my area so I'll bow to those who know more than myself.
Trade publishers contract books they are confident they can make a profit on by selling those books to readers. Quite often this occurs via literary agents who represent the authors. Have you tried querying agents?
Vanity presses contract books they are confident they can make a profit on by getting money from the author. They have no interest or intention in making a profit by selling books to readers. Is this an avenue you wish to pursue?
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What's a "fourth cover"?
In the US, you don't see forewards in fiction very often, no matter how big the book is.
Sounds like a lot more than we see in the US from any publisher.
One important question is what services does a hybrid publisher provide that a self publisher can't do themself? That simple question has a lot of parts.
Do they edit? If not, that expense is on the writer.
Do they do cover art/design? If so, do their covers look good, bad or AI generated? If not, again, the expense falls on the writer.
I would expect a print copy to need layout work that an ebook might have done by the writing suite. Do they have a person to do any layout or formatting that might need to be done?
Are there print copies? If so, are they print on demand or a print run? If it is a print run, who is responsible for storing copies? If you are responsible for storing copies, do you have room or will you need to rent space?
Who is responsible for advertising?
Those are the questions I can think of off hand from lurking rather than going either self publishing or vanity/hybrid publishing for my own work. While I won't say don't go this route, I would strongly encourage you to know what they will and (perhaps more importantly) won't do.
Do they edit? If not, that expense is on the writer.
Do they do cover art/design? If so, do their covers look good, bad or AI generated? If not, again, the expense falls on the writer.
I would expect a print copy to need layout work that an ebook might have done by the writing suite. Do they have a person to do any layout or formatting that might need to be done?
Are there print copies? If so, are they print on demand or a print run? If it is a print run, who is responsible for storing copies? If you are responsible for storing copies, do you have room or will you need to rent space?
Who is responsible for advertising?
Those are the questions I can think of off hand from lurking rather than going either self publishing or vanity/hybrid publishing for my own work. While I won't say don't go this route, I would strongly encourage you to know what they will and (perhaps more importantly) won't do.
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Since you've already paid your hybrid publisher, I'd argue that the expense falls on the writer in both cases.
In theory, I can imagine a publisher providing good paid services at reasonable prices, and handling some marketing/distribution in exchange for a portion of the profits. I'm not sure I've seen one in practice, at least not one that's sufficiently effective holding up their end of that deal.
That said, I'm in the US, and other geographies clearly see better results. But I agree with @CMBright: research is your friend.
I'm interested too, and in the content that would go there.
A quick'n'dirty search indicates that
- first cover == front cover
- second cover == inside front cover
- third cover == inside back cover
- fourth cover == back cover
So that would make the content on the fourth cover, what? A back-cover blurb? Third-party author endorsements? Genuinely curious.
I have to admit that I'm a bit unclear where hybrid publisher ends and selling services to self publishers begins.
If the author is paying the company (whatever you want to call it) to do editing, cover art, upload to Amazon with an ISBN, etc, but then 100% of any sales profits go to the author, IMO the company is selling services to self-publishers. If the author is paying the company for these services but the company's name is listed as publisher and the company keeps some of the sales profits (assuming there ever are any, which there generally aren't), the company is a vanity press.
My random two cents...
To me, if I pay a publisher, they are a vanity press. Apparently, there are subtlties I don't fully understand that make a hybrid press different from a vanity press.
If that difference is just that a hybrid press keeps x% of the profits where a vanity press doesn't, give me an honest vanity press. If a hybrid press does make ligitimate contrabutions, it might be worth it for some authors, depending on the services that come with the package. Which could vary widely from hybrid publisher to hybrid publisher.
None of this addresses the economics of vanity or hybrid presses. Up front costs and ongoing costs cut into any profit a writer might make. Not all books hit break even. The less marketing there is for whatever reason, the more likely it is that a book won't break even.
Knowing the number of copies that need to be sold to break even and believing one can sell more than that number should be an important consideration for anyone considering any form of self, vanity or hybrid publishing.
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I guess you call it the blurb - these are actually the words written on the fourth cover, recommending the book.
And yes, here fiction usually has forewords, but there are some small or middle presses which are not habituated to do it. Others - and certainly the big trade presses - do.
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Still not understanding the term, but I’ll assume you mean back cover copy.
I’ve only got US and UK wditions of my trade books, but in both cases the back cover copy is essentially a quick teaser-summary of the story. It’s not an endorsement. FWIW, the publisher wrote the copy for the first two, and I wrote it for the third, only because it was clear whoever had written it hadn’t read the book.
These marketplace differences fascinate me.
Small presses publishing in small countries (i.e. mine!) or publishing non-English books to readers of that native language are, AFAIK, quite different beasts to both large and small trade presses in the USA, UK, and Commonwealth countries publishing English books for worldwide distribution. So your experience is probably not going to extrapolate to that of the OP, who looks to be wanting to publish a children's book in English in the US/UK to be sold worldwide.
@Maryn has given a good run-down on how the various types of presses work in the larger publishing industry. With the caveat that, IMO, it's less important what a publisher calls itself (indie? hybrid? service provider?) and more important what their actual business model is.