Guardian (halfheartedly, belatedly) acknowledges existence of intersex conditions

Silenia

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Last year both fighters were disqualified from the world championships, with the International Boxing Association (IBA) president, Umar Kremlev, saying that DNA tests had “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded”. XY is the combination of chromosomes in males, while XX is the combination in females, with exceptions where rare conditions are present.

That last clause right there (emphasis mine)? That definitely wasn't there when the article was first published. (According to their amending note at the bottom of the article, they added it the 14th).

Can't say for sure whether it was my complaint to them, whether multiple people complained, or they're playing it safe what with the whole Twitter/lawsuit stuff surrounding Khelif, but...seeing a member of the British press actually (even if halfheartedly and belatedly) acknowledge at least the biological aspects of sex not being fully binary? Acknowledge (if without naming it) the existence of intersex people? (And thereby no longer quite as forcefully implying that Khelif must have been biologically male knowingly participating as female?)

It's not nearly the amount of progress I'd like to see, but it's progress.
 

mccardey

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no longer quite as forcefully implying that Khelif must have been biologically male knowingly participating as female?
Were they forcefully implying that Khelif must have been male? This was up the very next day:

Khelif has a similar backstory. She was born and grew up as female. She is not doping, and is not trying to assert a new gender identity. She also comes from Algeria, which continues to outlaw homosexuality, which has no visible LGBTQ+ culture, support network or any progressive culture on such issues. This is by any objective measure, a startling situation for a 25-year-old Algerian woman to find herself in. How to digest or process or deal with this? <<snip>>There was a visceral reaction to Khelif’s bout on Thursday. There are urgent unresolved questions about the safety of women in sport. But Khelif is also a person who was born a woman and has, all evidence suggests, always considered herself a woman.

<<snip>>

For now, and with the competition ongoing, there are no sensible answers. Probably, seeing Lin and Khelif in the flesh, as people, not avatars in a war of ideologies, might help.

I do take your point about the airbrushing-out-of-existence of intersex people, though. Well done for spanking them for that. I'm glad (but not surprised) that they took it on board.


ETA: Link issue righted.
 
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Silenia

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Were they forcefully implying that Khelif must have been male? This was up the very next day:



I do take your point about the airbrushing-out-of-existence of intersex people, though. Well done for spanking them for that. I'm glad (but not surprised) that they took it on board.


ETA: Link issue righted.
The phrasing in the article I complained about stopped about a hair short of actually saying it, but yeah, the implication was (to my eyes) fairly clearly there. Summarizing the article beat by beat:
* Carini in tears after controversial fight
* Opponent permitted to fight at Olympics even though barred from World Championship for failing gender eligibility test*
* Lengthy description of how Carini felt with quotes
* Very brief quote from Khelif (and a noticeably less-than-sympathetic one, too, compared to the quotes from Carini cited)
* Lengthy quote from UN special rapporteur on violence against women and girls
* Quote from Italian Prime Minister
* Description of controversy around Khelif's permission to fight at Olympics
* Description of failure of gender eligibility test which originally read "Last year both fighters were disqualified from the world championships, with the International Boxing Association (IBA) president, Umar Kremlev, saying that DNA tests had “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded”. XY is the combination of chromosomes in males, while XX is the combination in females"

By this point we're more than halfway through the article.

* IOC defending its decision and criticizing the IBA's disqualification process
* Back to criticism of Khelif being permitted to compete, with a lovely little misgendering of Khelif in a quote: “I don’t agree with them being allowed to compete in sport, especially combat sports,” Parker said. “It can be incredibly dangerous.” (emphasis mine. And yes, them can be neutral but in this context? It's not calling Khelif him, but as it's very clear Khelif uses her, it's certainly not neutral here)
* Borderline rumor mongering about Khelif thanks to lovely use of scare quotes (Agence France-Presse reported that Khelif claimed to be the victim of a “big conspiracy” after being disqualified just before the final at last year’s world championships.)
* Quotes from Algerian Olympic Committee defending Khelif.
* Quote from Khelif's next opponent.

The bulk of the article definitely leans towards "Khelif should have been barred" (and especially the first half, which gets waaaay more eyes than the latter part, with most defending statements pushed towards the bottom of the article). Note also that the statements picked to defend the decision to have Khelif compete are just about all superficial ones that claim there to be a conspiracy, accuse the IBA of changing their rules mid-competition, while the (many, many) statements out there that substantiate or explain that claim are left out.

Then add that there are plenty of people cited in favor of the "Khelif should have been barred" side who look somewhat neutral, while the only people cited in favor of "Khelif was rightfully permitted to compete" are cases of "Mandy Rice-Davis applies".

They aren't the Daily Mail, for sure. They know very well how to not outright state the stuff they're insinuating.

But yes, to me they were fairly clearly insinuating "the only people who are defending the decision to have Khelif compete are Khelif, her Olympic Committee, and the IOC (all of whom pretty obviously would), and their arguments are all pretty shallow, while it's clear to everyone else that Khelif is not a valid competitor in the female category because she's not female".

* I also hate the constant conflating of gender and sex. If someone has the chromosomes, hormone production, physical build, and what-have-ye within the boundaries of what's deemed "female", it doesn't matter one whit whether their gender is man, woman, genderfluid, genderqueer, agender, and so on; and clearly identifying as woman can still see you fail such a test. So they're not testing whether someone is of an eligible gender, they're testing whether they're of eligible sex. That's not the Guardian's fault, but it still gets on my nerves.
 
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mccardey

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The phrasing in the article I complained about stopped about a hair short of actually saying it, but yeah, the implication was (to my eyes) fairly clearly there. Summarizing the article beat by beat:
* Carini in tears after controversial fight
* Opponent permitted to fight at Olympics even though barred from World Championship for failing gender eligibility test*
* Lengthy description of how Carini felt with quotes
* Very brief quote from Khelif (and a noticeably less-than-sympathetic one, too, compared to the quotes from Carini cited)
* Lengthy quote from UN special rapporteur on violence against women and girls
* Quote from Italian Prime Minister
* Description of controversy around Khelif's permission to fight at Olympics
* Description of failure of gender eligibility test which originally read "Last year both fighters were disqualified from the world championships, with the International Boxing Association (IBA) president, Umar Kremlev, saying that DNA tests had “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded”. XY is the combination of chromosomes in males, while XX is the combination in females"

By this point we're more than halfway through the article.

* IOC defending its decision and criticizing the IBA's disqualification process
* Back to criticism of Khelif being permitted to compete, with a lovely little misgendering of Khelif in a quote: “I don’t agree with them being allowed to compete in sport, especially combat sports,” Parker said. “It can be incredibly dangerous.” (emphasis mine. And yes, them can be neutral but in this context? It's not calling Khelif him, but as it's very clear Khelif uses her, it's certainly not neutral here)
* Borderline rumor mongering about Khelif thanks to lovely use of scare quotes (Agence France-Presse reported that Khelif claimed to be the victim of a “big conspiracy” after being disqualified just before the final at last year’s world championships.)
* Quotes from Algerian Olympic Committee defending Khelif.
* Quote from Khelif's next opponent.

The bulk of the article definitely leans towards "Khelif should have been barred". Note also that the statements picked to defend the decision to have Khelif compete are just about all superficial ones that claim there to be a conspiracy, accuse the IBA of changing their rules mid-competition, while the (many, many) statements out there that substantiate or explain that claim are left out.

Then add that there are plenty of people cited in favor of the "Khelif should have been barred" side who look somewhat neutral, while the only people cited in favor of "Khelif was rightfully permitted to compete" are cases of "Mandy-Davis applies".

They aren't the Daily Mail, for sure. They know very well how to not outright state the stuff they're insinuating.

But yes, to me they were fairly clearly insinuating "the only people who are defending the decision to have Khelif compete are Khelif, her Olympic Committee, and the IOC (all of whom pretty obviously would), and their arguments are all pretty shallow, while it's clear to everyone else that Khelif is not a valid competitor in the female category because she's not female".

* I also hate the constant conflating of gender and sex. If someone has the chromosomes, hormone production, physical build, and what-have-ye within the boundaries of what's deemed "female", it doesn't matter one whit whether their gender is man, woman, genderfluid, genderqueer, agender, and so on; and clearly identifying as woman can still see you fail such a test. So they're not testing whether someone is of an eligible gender, they're testing whether they're of eligible sex. That's not the Guardian's fault, but it still gets on my nerves.
Excellent points. I expect I read the article with my cis glasses on, and missed quite a lot.

Thanks for taking the time help me see it through another lens.
 

Silenia

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Excellent points. I expect I read the article with my cis glasses on, and missed quite a lot.

Thanks for taking the time help me see it through another lens.
Thank you for listening! It's definitely a lot more subtle than the out-and-out transphobic bs most of the rest of the British Press likes spouting, so it's fairly easy to miss. (In fact, some parts of it I only noticed when summarizing the article. It didn't sit well with me from the start, but because it's superficially neutral/balanced-looking, it's easy to miss a lot of the exact ways in which the subtle nudging towards a conclusion takes place until you start looking at exactly how the article is composed on a sentence-and-paragraph level)
 

mccardey

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it's easy to miss a lot of the exact ways in which the subtle nudging towards a conclusion takes place until you start looking at exactly how the article is composed on a sentence-and-paragraph level)
Reading it side-by-side with your notes - I'm really surprised at how much there is to see, that I walked straight past.

Self - do better.