[eZine] Rose Red Review

[Denevius]

My apologies if this is in the wrong thread, but it seems appropriate.

I discovered a year ago that a random eMagazine site, Red Rose Review, had published a story I wrote. I had never heard of this publication before, but I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, so I sent the editor an email on their FB page asking for details of how they got my story. Did I submit it to them and forget, as there's no record in my emails. They're no Submittable record, or Moksha Submissions System record.

Still, it could have been my oversight. However, the editor didn't respond.

About 6 months later, I sent an email to their listed email account with basically the same question. How did you get my fiction? Did I send it to you and lose the correspondence? This doesn't seem like the kind of thing I would not remember. I sent this email June 26, and again, got no response.

Has anyone else had any dealings with this site? It's very small, so I wouldn't be surprised if no one had heard of it, as I hadn't.

And just a general question, has this ever happened to any of you before? One of these random small sites listing your story in full as a published piece? How did you deal with it, or finally resolve it?

Here's the website: http://roseredreview.org/

I'm unsure what my next step should be. Obviously, in the online world, intellectual theft is common. But I really wish for this site to take down my story, or at least explain if I'm in the wrong and actually did send it to them, though, again, I have no record of doing such.

Thanks for all suggestions, and if this is in the wrong thread, again, I apologize.

Edited to add: Here's an archived listing of the story: http://roseredreview.org/2013-summer/

 

[PorterStarrByrd]

I'd send them one more e-mail instructing them remove your work, regardless of here they got it, and inform than if they do not comply you will be notifying the State attorney general in the state where they originate filing a complaint about their theft of intellectual property. Don't know how effective that would be but it would step up the game a bit. Copy your previous two e-mails into this message.

 

[Deb Kinnard]

I agree with Porter. Regardless of whether you remember sending it or not, their failure to answer your two questions -- well, from where I sit it smelleth.

Did you sub the story somewhere else? A crit blog or a site where they might've got their hands on it? Wattpad? AO3? If it was never made public, it smelleth yet more stinky.

I believe you could make a case for sending them a third question, demanding a response this time, and saying that if they do not answer, your next communication will be a DMCA notice and other steps as appropriate. You owe them nothing; it's YOUR work and they owe you the courtesy of taking your questions seriously.

 

[Denevius]

Hey, thanks for the responses. I had to google DMCA, and that sounds like a good idea to go through them.

Actually, I was doing a lot of workshopping of pieces back then, but you do generally hope that people don't use your fiction without your permission (though at least the editor did leave my name on it). But yeah, I think I will go through the DMCA first, and see if that at least gets a response from the editor, or hopefully have the piece removed.

Thanks, guys, I *had* hit a wall and was unsure what the next step should have been. This has been helpful.

 

[CrastersBabies]

I don't see it up there anymore.

1. How did they get a full copy of your story?
2. Did they show records of a submission having occurred? (If so could someone else have submitted it in your name?)
3. I forget where I have submitted at times (though had a surprising acceptance once). In Prior threads you mention being a fan of mass submitting. I know you said you may have submitted and not remembered.
4. We all have had buyer's remorse over submitting a piece and realizing it was not the venue you expected, not saying this happened here, but editors of magazines and online zones deal with this from time to time.
5. Not sure what happened with the email but FB is not what I would call a reliable form of communicating. I've had messages in my "non friend inbox" that sit there unviewed for years because you don't receive notifications for those. I don't know how many times you attempted to email? If spam got it, then they need to fix their email system. Sure, it can happen to any of us (email falling into my junk or spam folder happens a lot) but that should be addressed. Perhaps now it will be by this magazine.

It sounds like they got your request and removed it, though. My biggest worry would be about the story if you didn't submit it. Is there fear of hacking? Was this published prior? Editors don't usually go around looking to steal work off people's machines, so I am confused. If someone sent it and it wasn't you, then you have more investigating to do. If they use a submission manager and have any information about this submission, their ISP might be able to track where it came from. On my web space, I can look up IP addresses going back ten years. It's not difficult and I would want to know if someone else was submitting my work.

 

[underwaterlily]

I'm the editor of Rose Red Review. I found this thread via my site tracker.

As you mention, Rose Red Review is a small publication. It's also a labor of love. Over the past four years, I've worked hard to see it grow. In 2015, Flavorwire listed it as a publication to watch, and Tor.com mentions one of RRR's writers--and specifically two of the stories I published--in a blog post about Latin voices in speculative fiction. Unfortunately, threads like this one, which skirt libel, can damage the reputation I work so hard to build. I've addressed your claims of theft privately, and now I'd like to address them publicly.

Your first Facebook message was sent to my filtered inbox. I had no idea it was there. Facebook's algorithms must have decided a legal threat was worth my time and attention; it's the only explanation I have for why your second message arrived in my regular inbox and not the first. I did react badly to the legal threat, and for that, I apologize. Your GMail message was probably sent to my spam folder. I can't find it; unfortunately, my spam folder automatically empties itself after 30 days.

I still have Submittable's e-mail notifying me of your submission, which I can forward to you. I also have screenshots of your submission. Here are two links*:

Proof of Submission, #1

Proof of Submission, #2

The e-mail address in your submission is the same one listed as a secondary e-mail on your website.

Your story is no longer featured at RRR. Had I seen your initial e-mail a year ago, I would have immediately removed your story as requested. There has been no intellectual theft; it seems you forgot you submitted to RRR.

If you have posted publicly about this issue elsewhere, I would appreciate it if you could take the time to set the record straight. Again, RRR's reputation is very important to me.

Thank you.

*I can't reduce the image resolution without the text becoming hard to read. My apologies to the mod for my original images!

 

[Denevius]

My submittable submissions goes back to 2012, and I have no record of this on it. However, I did think that maybe it could have been a mistake, which is why I contacted you twice, quite politely I believe, to see what the discrepancy was. And twice over a full year I got no response from you.

And also, do you actually send out acceptance emails, as I have no record of being told the story was accepted.

Facebook's algorithms must have decided a legal threat was worth my time and attention; it's the only explanation I have for why your second message arrived in my regular inbox and not the first.

Hm. I'll be a bit surprised if this is how FB works, but who knows. Either way, my piece is down, and you did eventually get back to me (your response was quite harsh, though, but I won't post it here for others to see the difference in tone from what you're writing here now).

Anyway, it's water under the bridge now.

Edited to Add:

Had I seen your initial e-mail a year ago, I would have immediately removed your story as requested.

By the way, my first request wasn't to remove it, just for an explanation, or clarification. I was genuinely surprised to find my piece on your website a year ago.

 

[Deb Kinnard]

Based on the tone of the response, one wonders how many other spam-filtered takedown requests are languishing in that next-to-useless inbox...

 

[CaoPaux]

I'm the editor of Rose Red Review. I found this thread via my site tracker.

Welcome. We have an image size limit of 400 x 400. Please reduce your images. Here's a FAQ to help you, if necessary: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?304595-FAQ-Image-Size-Guidelines

 

[veinglory]

Facebook has two mailboxes, one for connected people and one for unconnected people. It pays to check both.

 

[underwaterlily]

Facebook has two mailboxes, one for connected people and one for unconnected people. It pays to check both.

Too true! I had no idea the filtered inbox existed; notifications aren't sent when it comes to filtered messages. (And now, the filtered inbox has a filtered inbox. It's all very "Inception.")

 

[underwaterlily]

And also, do you actually send out acceptance emails, as I have no record of being told the story was accepted.

Yes, I do. Acceptance letters are sent via Submittable.

Here is yours.

I've been advised contracts will prevent any future issues, should they arise. Rights revert back to my authors upon publication; as a non-paying market, I never thought to use contracts.

I've never before faced legal action, nor has anyone else sent me a "take-down request."

 

[CrastersBabies]

Hm. I'll be a bit surprised if this is how FB works, but who knows. Either way, my piece is down, and you did eventually get back to me (your response was quite harsh, though, but I won't post it here for others to see the difference in tone from what you're writing here now).

Anyway, it's water under the bridge now.

Without seeing how you responded, it's hard to gauge who was "meaner" here. Not that I think anyone wants to get into a pissing contest. And the screen shots seem pretty legit to me.

Edited to Add:

By the way, my first request wasn't to remove it, just for an explanation, or clarification. I was genuinely surprised to find my piece on your website a year ago.

Surprised enough to send one email and let it go for a year? If this really was a mistake, I would have moved heaven and earth to get an answer, to demand HOW it got there (including me running full virus scans to make sure no hackers were involved and going through email to see who I had sent a copy to for critique). I'm a little confused.

Yes, it's not cool if you receive a very snippy, rude reply. Not professional, no, but we don't see the other side of the communications here. It sounds like mistakes were made on both ends and are easy to correct. (I learned a terrible lesson by not checking my filtered junk box and do so daily now.)

Spam folders can muck things up. And you claim to not have received an acceptance email. (Went into spam maybe?)

Bottom line is that your story is down. (Which I was a bit bummed because I wanted to read it. I read a few stories on the site yesterday and enjoyed them.) And this publication can adapt and change some protocols for future writers.

If you are submitting it elsewhere. Good luck! ( hugs to all )

 

[underwaterlily]

Yes, it's not cool if you receive a very snippy, rude reply.

Full disclosure: I sent a very angry reply. In my defense, I had no idea what he was talking about--to me, it came out of the blue--and he accused me of stealing his story and threatened me with legal action. Some of my anger also came from the fact his message was sent on my birthday and put a damper on things. I'm human.

It's probably unwise for me to continue to respond. To Denevius: Again, I would appreciate it if you would cease the spread of information you know to be false. The screenshots prove you did indeed submit your story to Rose Red Review. I would appreciate it if you set the record straight if you have posted about this issue elsewhere. I did not commit intellectual theft, nor did I intentionally ignore your messages.

 

[veinglory]

These things happen. It has happened to me in the past. But it would be wise to only publish after receiving a specific agreement and transfer of rights from the author. Taking submission as including permission to publish can lead to problems for multiple reasons.

 

[Denevius]

Surprised enough to send one email and let it go for a year? If this really was a mistake, I would have moved heaven and earth to get an answer, to demand HOW it got there (including me running full virus scans to make sure no hackers were involved and going through email to see who I had sent a copy to for critique).

It was low priority, honestly, as I had only recently moved to Seoul to attend a university level language program there. Plus, I was just beginning to edit my novel set to be released next year. I didn't really care enough to move heaven and earth when a simple explanation, given here to the public but never, even when Underwaterlilly responded to me, *to* me. This is the first I've seen of those screen shots. What I got instead was a very nasty response to what she continues to call a "threat", not those screenshots which would have easily provided proof of submission.

Personally, I don't get Submittable Submissions. I'm unsure why I have entries going back to 2012, but not this entry. I have no idea what's going on with that, as I have not deleted any of the entires I have submitted through Submittables. I actually thought the whole point of Submittables was easy cataloguing of your submissions, rejections, and acceptances. I, too, have learned a lesson here. Don't rely on Submittables.

Again, I would appreciate it if you would cease the spread of information you know to be false.

As of 24 hours ago, I finally received a full explanation of events after a year of not knowing. So as of *now*, it's water under the bridge. As of 12 months before now, it was still an unresolved issue.

I agree, though, that there's not much left to be gained in furthering the thread. Thanks everyone for responding! I don't think more is needed.

Cheers!

 

[CaoPaux]

As of Dec '17, site reads:

Dear Writers and Readers,

Rose Red Review is now closed, though it will reopen for submissions again sometime in the future. I can’t say for certain when it will reopen, only that it will.

Be well.

Warm Regards,
Larissa Nash
Rose Red Review

Last issue was Winter '16.