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Entangled Publishing

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Editing for authors: because every writer needs a good editor.

Sonya Heaney

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My thoughts on this...I had a book published with Samhain Publishing 10 years ago. I would say exactly the same about my experience with them...I had no marketing help really at all. It was mostly up to me. But I will bet you people on Absolute Write considered Samhain to be a wonderful publisher. I just got back from a very good writers' conference where Liz Pelletier (Entangled Editor) gave an incredible presentation about marketing. She's no dummy in this area and had some really good info to hand out to authors. My guess is, just like any small publishing house, a lot of the marketing is on THE AUTHOR. Very few publishing houses help with marketing these days.

So I am not sure what you mean by this negative comment about Entangled. I had EXACTLY the same experience with Samhain. Exactly. But I would never have considered that a bad experience or have warned someone away from them.

I would have no problem submitting to Entangled in the future, if I had something I thought they might like. Some authors who write for my publisher also write for Entangled (including one of this year's RITA finalists). In my few interactions with their editors (before I pulled my manuscript because I sold it elsewhere), everyone was very professional.

Doing your own marketing can be painful, but is it also necessary – especially outside the big companies.
 

A.P.M.

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My question related to this, and I'm not trying to be obnoxious, just trying to understand--if the onus is on the author to advertise their work, then what is the publisher actually doing to earn the percentage they take? I've worked with other publishers who do absolutely no marketing work for the author, and the experience was not a good one. If the expectation is that the publisher won't help market the book, why go with a small publisher over self-publishing?
 

zmethos

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My question related to this, and I'm not trying to be obnoxious, just trying to understand--if the onus is on the author to advertise their work, then what is the publisher actually doing to earn the percentage they take? I've worked with other publishers who do absolutely no marketing work for the author, and the experience was not a good one. If the expectation is that the publisher won't help market the book, why go with a small publisher over self-publishing?

I feel the same as you, A.P.M., and maybe we've had similar experiences with small publishers. But I think some authors feel having that publisher's label gives them some legitimacy. It's what I believed when I first sold a couple books to small pubs. Only to regret it when the books didn't do very well. Some of that was my fault; I opted to promote my self-published work over the work that had been put out by these publishers. (But I also was getting more back from selling self-published books.) I'm not much of a marketer, and I have limited time and funds, so I put the little I could do where I would get the best ROI. Still, I think some authors--and readers--think being "good enough" to have been picked up by a publisher is important. I proved to myself that I was good enough for that, and also proved to myself that it didn't turn out to be worth it. (For me. It's certainly worth it to some authors, I'm sure.)
 

Sonya Heaney

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My question related to this, and I'm not trying to be obnoxious, just trying to understand--if the onus is on the author to advertise their work, then what is the publisher actually doing to earn the percentage they take? I've worked with other publishers who do absolutely no marketing work for the author, and the experience was not a good one. If the expectation is that the publisher won't help market the book, why go with a small publisher over self-publishing?

You are right, and I would hesitate to sign with a very small publisher for those reasons. However, I don't see Entangled that way. I don't mean authors have to do ALL of the work. In the romance genre (and romance readers read more than anyone) Entangled is well-known, and they publish some popular authors (i.e. the RITA finalist I mentioned before). They know the genre inside-out, and protect their brand. They have great covers, great editing, and the company has a great reputation. Readers know what to expect from them, and will seek out their books.

There are plenty of smaller publishers I've never heard of and would never seek out if I was looking for a book, but because many people in the romance community know Entangled, an author's chances of reasonable sales are much higher with them than if they did it on their own.

Edited to add: I think any publisher that uses NetGalley does their authors a huge favour, and Entangled does that.
 
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veinglory

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If the books are selling, that's when I have no complaints. I am not with Entangled but my experience with Samhain was that they sold well and were stocked on the shelf in Barnes and Noble. So whatever they did or did not do was fine with me.
 

Earthling

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Very few publishing houses help with marketing these days.

This isn't true at all. It may be true of many small publishing houses but it's nowhere near true for big or even medium-sized houses.
 

KE-writer

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My question related to this, and I'm not trying to be obnoxious, just trying to understand--if the onus is on the author to advertise their work, then what is the publisher actually doing to earn the percentage they take? I've worked with other publishers who do absolutely no marketing work for the author, and the experience was not a good one. If the expectation is that the publisher won't help market the book, why go with a small publisher over self-publishing?


People are more likely to trust that your book is worth reading if you are published by a publisher. You also get space on their webpage, which is much more that you will ever draw to your own personal author website. Let's put it this way, I sold more books with Samhain than I ever have through self-publishing. Reviews are what sell books, and it's hard for a self-published author to get reviews. Easier to get reviews when you have the backing of a publisher. And sometimes the publisher will help you GET those reviews.
 

MaryLennox

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Reviews are what sell books, and it's hard for a self-published author to get reviews. Easier to get reviews when you have the backing of a publisher. And sometimes the publisher will help you GET those reviews.

A lot of review sites/blogs won't even let you query for a review if you're self-published, but are fine with small press books. A book published by a press, however small, at least let's them know that someone agreed the book was worth publishing and effort and editing went into it. I'm not saying that's not true for self-published books, but there's nothing really backing up the self-published book by an unknown author who doesn't have any reviews yet.
 

cool pop

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It's not true most people only trust published books from a press. Maybe in some genres but romance, no way. No way. Readers don't care and many readers in romance buy self-published books exclusively. Do you guys know how well self-publishing does in romance? That's why so many small presses have closed! Because of self-publishing and the beast that is KU (which I can't stand). Sure, some readers might trust a pub but it depends on the pub and just because readers buy from a publisher doesn't mean they don't buy SP books too.

It depend so the publisher and their brand whether or not someone respects it or not. I agree, Entangled and Samhain built brands and some others but there are millions of small presses that have no more power than a new self-published author. No power or clout whatsoever. Being published by Samhain and Entangled is different than being published by Little House Press (that no one has heard of). That's not going to impress any reviewer. They're not gonna say, "Oh, this comes from a press I've never heard of with ten authors but it's a publisher so I'm gonna review it." ROFL! No.

I just had to speak on this because people seem to act like small presses are always better than self-publishing when depending on the pub, it's worse. You can do bad by yourself. If you can't get a good small press that can do something for you, go on your own or try to shoot for the big boys.

The quality of the pub matters. Anyone can open up a "small" press. I could make up a name in five minutes, advertise and boom. I'm the CEO of my own company. I'm not trying to be funny but pushing the fact that you don't have to know how to run a company to be a "publisher". You don't even have to have money to open a publishing company if it's online! But is that the kind of pub someone wants? It's not difficult. All you have to do is make up a name and put up books on retailers. Wallah! Small press created. Anyone who can put up books can do it. But will it be worth anything? That's why there is a difference between the respected ones and the others.

And these crappier small presses don't agree to publish because they are experts or love your work. Most are author mills who will publish anything someone sends them. That's not a feat. They don't promote so the books don't even sell and that author is tied up in a bad contract making no money.

Another thing (and I am an ex-trade published author), you guys do realize self-publishers get reviews from some of the same reviewers that do trade author books right? I mean, you guys know WE do get Netgalley reviews too? Yes, self-publishers do put our books on Netgalley. It's expensive as hell but many of us do. We also get reviews from some of the most popular blogs, etc. If some sell well, they do often get reviewed by the biggies but most SP authors aren't interested in reviewers who do trade. We just aren't because most of us focus on ebooks and audio and there are slews of respected reviewers who review self-published books.

I'm just sharing because some of the information seems to be coming from years ago. It's not like that anymore. Most readers don't care squat about a publisher and in romance they care less. They go by tropes. If you are writing the hottest tropes, you'll sell. Another thing, most romance readers are in KU which gives SP authors an edge there too. I don't agree with KU. I sell wide, but just saying KU is a huge player in many genres now. KU is a super huge player in romance. Unfortunately. Also SP authors use sites like Book Funnel, Booksprout and Prolific Readers to connect with ARC readers AND we have ARC teams.

Sorry, but I had to chime in. I don't want anyone thinking that any small press is good or better than self-publishing when we KNOW that's not true. :roll:

Seriously, I don't want newbies sending their work to any old place just because it's a "publisher" and they take that as meaning it's going to be a good deal.
 
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zmethos

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I'll just second a lot of what cool pop said above. Having come out of a couple bad small pub contracts, and having done much better self-publishing, there are definitely times when doing it for yourself is better. And I got some great reviews for my self-published work that really boosted me, more than anything I got from those small pubs. Some small publishers are great--I can't speak for Entangled, since I've never tried them--but not all are created equal, and there's no set hierarchy for publishing. That is, one can't say: big trade is best, then small pub, then self-pub is for the rejects. It's more fluid than that, and more individualized depending on each author and what he or she is looking to do.
 

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Personally, I sold better once I changed my pen name and switched to self-publishing. I had been with four small pubs before that, one of them Entangled, and had sold almost nothing. At least Entangled assigned me a publicist and got me some reviews...not of the other three did much of that.
 

MaryLennox

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Romance is definitely it's own world when it comes to self-publishing, reviewers, and readers. YA and MG is completely different, especially if the YA is not romance.

Yes, authors need to be aware of small presses. A lot are created by authors who want to self-publish, but want to look more legit so create a publishing press and sign on other authors, and they may not have a clue what they're doing.
 

A.P.M.

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Emailed yesterday to check-in on my submission and got a reply within 24 hours that it's still under review. No idea if that's a good or bad sign, but I appreciate their responsiveness. Fingers still crossed.
 

Sonya Heaney

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Emailed yesterday to check-in on my submission and got a reply within 24 hours that it's still under review. No idea if that's a good or bad sign, but I appreciate their responsiveness. Fingers still crossed.

Am I right thinking you submitted around the beginning of the year? I was actually just wondering if their response times had sped up yet. I'm busy with other things at the moment, but still wouldn't mind working with them in the future. I guess I'll prepare to wait a few years. :D:D

Good luck with your submission!
 

A.P.M.

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Yep, I submitted right around the beginning of February. So it's been a little over four months for me. I'm hoping the request for more time/response to my inquiry means they've read it and are considering, but I suppose it could just as easily mean they haven't gotten to it yet. :p
 

Sonya Heaney

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Kind of random, but earlier on in this discussion people were wondering about how Entangled does with publicity and distribution etc.

I thought it was interesting that I found some of their paperbacks in a bookshop in a suburban shopping mall on Friday - interesting because I'm in *Australia*, and had no idea they had that kind of distribution. Entangled started off small a few years ago, but they seem to be a pretty big deal now.
 

KE-writer

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It's not true most people only trust published books from a press. Maybe in some genres but romance, no way. No way. Readers don't care and many readers in romance buy self-published books exclusively. Do you guys know how well self-publishing does in romance? That's why so many small presses have closed! Because of self-publishing and the beast that is KU (which I can't stand). Sure, some readers might trust a pub but it depends on the pub and just because readers buy from a publisher doesn't mean they don't buy SP books too.

This was about Entangled, not any old 'small pub.' I was referring to Entangled and the fact that they are recognized as a decent small publisher and can get you reviewed. The same was true of Samhain. I got some reviews for my book, which I never could've gotten on my own. I'm just speaking from my own experience. I don't publish with any old 'publisher' just to say I'm published. I'm not that vain and know that many aren't even really publishers, just vanity presses pretending they are publishers. I've also self-published and know what a black hole that can be. You can have a great book, a great cover, and still be lost in a sea of other books. Just reality. I absolutely sold MORE books with Samhain on my side, than I ever did on my own through self-publishing. Fact. Therefore, to me, it is worth submitting to Entangled, who has a good reputation with readers, lots of reader-generated reviews and other reviews through well-known outlets. Not every book they publish will be a big seller, but the potential is greater there than on your own.
 

A.P.M.

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Got my rejection today. The good news is someone did clearly look at it-- it had a strengths and weaknesses list, and I assume the weaknesses were the main reasons for rejection. Some of the weaknesses were embarrassing writing mistakes, though. I thought I was past rookie mistakes, but apparently not.

I got the typical "if you want to resend in six months, you can" message, and at the very least I'll revise the manuscript with the editor's comments in mind.
 

Sonya Heaney

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Ugh, sorry on the rejections. If they're this slow to respond at the moment I guess the manuscript I pulled never got looked at (it was there for three months, including over Christmas/New Year).
 

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They've had one of my submissions since 02/25/2019. Very quick response to my check-in email, but no timeline for a decision.
 

Tromboli

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Entangled signs Alexa Riley. I find this deal interesting for a few reasons-- 1) there's apparently very big controversy about this author. She's been banned from Amazon, for unspecified violations. Most people accuse her of Bookstuffing (KU) I've also heard falsified reviews and rank manipulation (all hearsay so far as I know)


But also, it's an interestingly truly hybrid publishing deal: The deal includes the powerhouse duo’s entire 83 book and 13 boxset current catalog along with future projects the duo already has planned. Riley will remain in control of packaging and content. Entangled’s Publisher Liz Pelletier says, “We couldn’t be more thrilled to be working closely with two of the most talented and business-savvy authors in the industry. We look forward to applying Entangled’s increased distribution to their vast catalog and leveraging our relationships in audio, foreign, and gaming interests to bring these amazing titles to new readers everywhere.”


A couple people have called it simply Ban evasion. AR is not allowed on Amazon at all, but with a publisher she will be. So she gets to get around her ban for a cut of her profits.


Curious to hear more thoughts and information on this.
 

Anna204

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I found this whole Alexa Riley/Entangled marriage a bit strange. As it turns out, Amazon didn't care for it either and it looks like AR is banned all over again.

What I don't get is what Entangled was supposed to get out of this. It's clear what AR got. From a reader/author standpoint, it turns me off Entangled books and I have friends published with them.

I'm sure Entangled will try to sort this out although if I were them, I'd cut my losses now.

So much for being business savvy. Maybe they should have cleared all this with Amazon first. Because if the ban holds, what does AR need with Entangled besides nothing.
 

Sonya Heaney

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Entangled signs Alexa Riley. I find this deal interesting for a few reasons-- 1) there's apparently very big controversy about this author. She's been banned from Amazon, for unspecified violations. Most people accuse her of Bookstuffing (KU) I've also heard falsified reviews and rank manipulation (all hearsay so far as I know)

Seriously? Wow, off to read up on this. I've been so caught up in other publishing stuff this week I haven't kept up with news. It certainly sounds like money over ethics.

I found this whole Alexa Riley/Entangled marriage a bit strange. As it turns out, Amazon didn't care for it either and it looks like AR is banned all over again.

What I don't get is what Entangled was supposed to get out of this. It's clear what AR got. From a reader/author standpoint, it turns me off Entangled books and I have friends published with them.

I'm going to take a guess and say they checked out how they could get around the ban before signing them on. :mad: (Edit: they're actually gloating about it on Twitter.) Also, THIS THREAD.

I had a few Entangled books to read this week, but I think I'll set them aside for a little bit!
 
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