Divine Sunshine (the Sun is God)

editing_for_authors
Editing for authors: because every writer needs a good editor.

Status
Not open for further replies.

doolhoofd

Registered
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
23
Reaction score
2
Website
www.doolhoofd.com
Bring your best reasoning to bear on the central questions of religion, religious philosophy, and fundamental likenesses and differences. Be courteous, polite and respectful, or you'll be bounced in short order.
01) "The sun? Conscious? Impossible... How?" 'In a way lower organisms like you have difficulty to grasp. One thought from the source takes longer than a human life. A conversation with other stars takes thousands of your years.' "All the stars are conscious?" A dry laughter resounded. 'Of course. They are the original inhabitants of the cosmos. Without them there would be no organic life, let alone organic consciousness.' - Elian Lazaro, Elysium

02) "I think that modern cosmology took an unfortunate turn several hundred years ago by denying or ignoring the question of function or purpose in the larger cosmos. Biologists recognize the principle that form follows function; so why do astrophysicists not recognize this principle? Why are astrophysicists not asking this question? The idea that life or intelligence would be attached to a planet or a star was too much for our consciousness, so we denied its possibility. There was never any evidence to substantiate that denial. Denying a star could be alive is a misuse of the scientific method. In the last two generations we've developed telescopes to show us galaxies, billions of galaxies, trillions of stars - and then we promptly declared them all dead and having no purpose to themselves or to anything else." - Michael Clarage, New Views Of The Interstellar Medium

03) Eustace: "In our world, a star is a huge ball of flaming gas." Ramandu: 'Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is, but only what it is made of.' - Clive Staples Lewis, The Voyage of the Dawn Treader

04) "There's a whole lot more out there than even the most die-hard believers could possibly fathom. The truth is that we - and by 'we' I mean this planet and the people of this planet - are in essence blind to what is really going on in the cosmos and in outer space." - Smooth Genestar, Dimensions

05) "The proposition is that Sun is a living, conscious being with an intelligence that dwarfs our own. I am not only suggesting that Sun is a large complex system with some form of self-governing intelligence to it, but also that it is a living being, aware of itself and its place in the universe; that it is fully conscious and communicates with other conscious beings at its own level, and other levels; that its consciousness is so far beyond what we enjoy that it could be accorded deity status of a high order, and be recognized as a conscious being by atheists and agnostics, whatever spin they put on it. As staggering as this proposition might seem, it is hardly novel, and was once held as a near universal belief or understanding in most parts of the globe. It is possible that generations of Neolithic peoples, the ancient Sumerians, Chaldeans, and Assyrians, the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Maya, Inca, Aztec, and the ancient Celts and Native Americans were not completely deluded. Perhaps they were right to regard Sun as a living celestial being, rather than view the prime enabler of life-on-Earth as just another random event in the infinity of space, deserving neither credit nor appreciation. We can add the world's 750 million Hindus to the list above, as well as followers of Shinto, the native Japanese religion revering Sun goddess Amaterasu." - Gregory Sams, Sun of gOd

06) "Our ancestors worshipped the sun, and they were far from foolish. And yet the sun is an ordinary, even a mediocre star. If we must worship a power greater than ourselves, does it not make sense to revere the sun and stars?" - Carl Sagan, Cosmos

07) "In the center of all rests the sun. For who would place the lamp of our marvelous temple in any other or better place than whence it can illuminate everything at the same time? As a matter of fact, not unhappily do some call it the light of the world, others the mind, and still others the pilot of it all. Hermes Trismegistus calls it a visible God, Sophocles' Electra calls it 'that which gazes upon all things.' And so the sun, as if resting on a kingly throne, governs the family of heavenly bodies that wheel around." - Nicolaus Copernicus, On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres

08) "The sun alone appears, by virtue of his dignity and power, suited for the duty of moving the planets, and worthy to become the home of God himself." - Johannes Kepler, The Harmony of the World

09) "Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God." - Michael Shermer's last law (a variant of Clarke's third law)

10) "The Sun is God." - Joseph Mallord William Turner

:Sun:
 

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
10,442
Reaction score
1,575
Location
Walking the Underworld
Website
www.richardgarfinkle.com
Mod Note:

Hi, welcome to our board. Your opening post is certainly interesting. But it would help if you could elucidate your ideas in your own words, rather than only using quotes.

Because AW is a writer's board, we strongly encourage people to speak for themselves. This will also make it easier for other members to respond.
 

doolhoofd

Registered
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
23
Reaction score
2
Website
www.doolhoofd.com
Okay, thanks.
What I'm trying to say is...
As we all can see at night, as all our telescopes have shown us, the universe is full of Stars.
What most people in the west don't know, however, is that all these Stars are alive, that they think and act and communicate, that they are all living, conscious beings.
And most people are of course aware that we live inside the Solar System, where everything revolves around the Star we call the Sun.
But very few are aware that the "God" they're directing their prayers to... well, that it's exactly the same thing.
It's the biggest elephant in the room - figuratively as well as literally, since it is so massive that about 1300000 Earths can fit inside of it (yeah, I Googled that).
In practice, "God" is simply the Sun; it's very real, you can see it every day; there's simply nothing else to be found in "heaven."
The Egyptians called it Ra, the Hindus call it Surya, it has been given many names throughout human history.
But what it boils down to, is that the Sun is the Grand Master of Puppets of our little puppet show.
 

frimble3

Heckuva good sport
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
8,681
Reaction score
1,304
Location
west coast, canada
Yes, but there's a human urge to personify things, to make them, if not more like us, then at least interested in us. So, we shift the Sun in the sky, looking down on us, into a being who creates us, follows us, looks after us, is interested in our little doings. We have to find a reason why the deity should care more about us than, say, whales or tigers. Or, rats.
 

pharm

profoundly de minimis
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 21, 2019
Messages
282
Reaction score
46
Anyone fascinated by this religious framework who has not seen the 2007 cult sci-fi classic Sunshine — a spiritual successor of sorts to Solaris — owes themselves to check it out ASAP.

Trailer: https://youtu.be/veC25b8Vd2E
 

Kjbartolotta

Potentially has/is dog
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 15, 2014
Messages
4,124
Reaction score
873
Location
Los Angeles
Anyone fascinated by this religious framework who has not seen the 2007 cult sci-fi classic Sunshine — a spiritual successor of sorts to Solaris Event Horizon

fixed that for you.
 

Albedo

Cultured vulture
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
6,732
Reaction score
1,542
Location
A dimension of pure BEES
fixed that for you.
It's both!

I mean from a pantheistic pov of course the sun is divine (how could it not be?) but it's always been a bit of a leap to me when we attribute such limited, corporeal phenomena like consciousness and will to God. Why does God particularly need consciousness?
 

Kjbartolotta

Potentially has/is dog
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 15, 2014
Messages
4,124
Reaction score
873
Location
Los Angeles
If the sun is God what are the implications for extraterrestrials? What if we colonize other solar systems?

I looked up Gregory Sams as his name stood out to me, and noticed he's the major person behind the 'sun is a God' theory. Are we talking about his belief system specifically?

If I were generous, I would say that he doesn't set off any major alarm bells compared to others like him, and he invented the veggie burger so I thank him for that. If I were ungenerous, I would say he's dipping his toe/whole body into psuedoscience and is part of a neognostic conspiracist way of thinking I am not very fond of (after spending 1000+ hours reading books by people he mentions or who mention him on his website). But I can't really judge his theories without knowing more.
 
Last edited:

doolhoofd

Registered
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
23
Reaction score
2
Website
www.doolhoofd.com
I looked up Gregory Sams as his name stood out to me, and noticed he's the major person behind the 'sun is a God' theory. Are we talking about his belief system specifically?
I'm not the leader of this thread. In fact, I'm not any kind of leader at all. I just made the first post and presented the main argument. Up to you guys to discuss any and all ideas in this field. I'd say it's not about Gregory's ideas in particular, more about Sun worship in general.
 

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
10,442
Reaction score
1,575
Location
Walking the Underworld
Website
www.richardgarfinkle.com
Sorry, I cannot give you any information on that. In the field of black holes I am a complete layman.

That's rather unfortunate. I speak as co-author of a book on the subject and it's quite fascinating.

Let me take off my mod hat, stick on my atheist science writer hat, and offer my own views of deified sun and stars.

Humans seem to have a propensity for making gods out of what seems vast, powerful, and eternal to them. Seas, mountains, weather, planets, stars, etc.

But the more we learn about them, the more we find that these very phenomena are not immortal. They're just differently mortal.

Stars exist because the collapsing force of gravity is countered during their lifetimes by the pressure created by fusion. But every star has a finite supply of fuse-able material (Hydrogen, Helium etc). The existence of the star as a glowing bright object is measured in how much of this fuel it has. As the star creates heavier elements, it becomes less capable of sustaining its existence.

The lifespan and the likely fate of any given star can be approximately determined by how much Hydrogen it starts with. A large enough star will eventually become a Black Hole.

Humans often worship the sun as a lifegiver, and it is true that life on Earth depends on sunlight. But it also depends on a lot of other factors, including an atmosphere that moderates the sun's influences. The Sun radiates. Our ecosphere evolved relative to that radiation, and because we are products of that evolution we benefit from some aspects of that radiation, and suffer from others.

I could get into a long discussion of the human habit of projecting our ways of thinking and action onto the universe. But, that's a different discussion.

The challenge for people who do see gods and the hands of gods in nature is to deal with the facts of nature as we discover them.
 

doolhoofd

Registered
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
23
Reaction score
2
Website
www.doolhoofd.com
Stars are not immortal, but they live much, much longer than us humans.
And Stars are not Gods, only living, mortal beings that act and think and feel and communicate in ways that are simply unintelligible to us.
 

Tocotin

deceives
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
1,413
Reaction score
365
Location
Tokyo, waiting for typhoons
One thing that can be said about things like mountains, trees, stars etc. is that they are very real – at any rate, much more real than any gods or other supernatural beings of various mythologies/theologies. Immortality is not always a sine qua non for a divine being. What seems to be necessary is the feeling of energy, or presence, if you will, which can fill a human being with a certain kind of awe. For me it's more natural and logical to have religious feelings for rocks or rivers or the Sun, than to try to explain stuff by creating sophisticated and fragile theological systems.

:troll
 

doolhoofd

Registered
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
23
Reaction score
2
Website
www.doolhoofd.com
One thing that can be said about things like mountains, trees, stars etc. is that they are very real – at any rate, much more real than any gods or other supernatural beings of various mythologies/theologies. Immortality is not always a sine qua non for a divine being. What seems to be necessary is the feeling of energy, or presence, if you will, which can fill a human being with a certain kind of awe. For me it's more natural and logical to have religious feelings for rocks or rivers or the Sun, than to try to explain stuff by creating sophisticated and fragile theological systems.

:troll
https://reddit.com/r/funny/comments/1h6k7k/universe_perspective/
 

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
10,442
Reaction score
1,575
Location
Walking the Underworld
Website
www.richardgarfinkle.com
Stars are not immortal, but they live much, much longer than us humans.
And Stars are not Gods, only living, mortal beings that act and think and feel and communicate in ways that are simply unintelligible to us.

The problem I have with this concept is that stars are much simpler than we are. They exist because of a few basic processes in the universe and can largely be understood as the interaction between gravity and fusion. Because of the star's internal heat, the nuclei in them cannot even form atoms (that is, electrons are moving too fast to settle in not nice orbits and orbitals around the nuclei). Because of this, atoms cannot bond to form molecules, molecules to form macromolecules etc.

The simplest single-celled creature on Earth is more complex than any star in the sky. If they had consciousness, it is we who would likely be incomprehensible to them.
 

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
10,442
Reaction score
1,575
Location
Walking the Underworld
Website
www.richardgarfinkle.com

Mod Hat Back On

This is always the difficulty in this board. But, this is the comparative religion section. It is perfectly okay to offer ones objections or concerns about the substance of another person's views so long as one does not directly attack that person or make blanket statements about those who hold those views.

Philosophy and Theology advance by examining the substance of what they say. They become problematic when one makes declarations about the people holding those views.

Note that there can be difficulties when the theologies or philosophies are themselves condemnatory of other people, but that's a matter for other threads.

Fundamentally, when someone posits a philosophy or theology and offers it to others, those others can challenge it or object to it on any of a number of grounds. It's only when the objections become attacks that things become dicey.
 

Kjbartolotta

Potentially has/is dog
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 15, 2014
Messages
4,124
Reaction score
873
Location
Los Angeles
II'd say it's not about Gregory's ideas in particular, more about Sun worship in general.

But some of the quotes and specific phrasing you use ('elephant in the room') comes directly from his website. I'm not saying it invalidates the discussion, that his ideas are necessarily bad, or that he can't be used as a starting point. But I still think you're referring to a specific person's views here, and I have a bit of an allergic reaction to some of his "It's a conspiracy!" talking points.

In a broader sense, yeah, I can see how it's possible to view the sun as some sort of deity, though the conversation is bound to get lost in the weeds describing your definition of deity. Plus, the idea of a physically embodied god is sort of disturbing to me
 
Last edited:

Siri Kirpal

Swan in Process
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
8,729
Reaction score
2,739
Location
In God I dwell, especially in Eugene OR
Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Sikhs sometimes use sun analogies, as in: God sends sun and rain to all people of all types, good and bad, rich and poor. But our concept of God goes way beyond the sun or the Sun. It's more that God is the creating of creation. But we'll also tell you that talking about God doesn't get us very far. Because when you're talking about the Really Truly Infinite, you're still using finite words and thinking to do it.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Featured Book