Diversity

[Clovitide]

Background, I use a website called The StoryGraph to keep track of the books I read since I'm doing a hundred book challenge. They have community reviews, which are basically just polls that you can see an average of or go and check out individual reviews.

One of these is the basic question of: Diverse cast of characters? No, Yes, It's Complicated, and N/A.

So my question boils down to, if you saw these 4 option, what would be the minimum requirement a book needed to make a 'Yes' in your head?

Because I saw some books that I would give a No and the amount of of It's Complicated and Yes votes were on par with the No.

 

[lizmonster]

So my question boils down to, if you saw these 4 option, what would be the minimum requirement a book needed to make a 'Yes' in your head?

- The book would have to include at least as much gender, sexuality, and racial diversity as I see in my local supermarket every Saturday.
- Non-white, cis, straight, male characters would have to be fully developed and not fall back on tropes, at least not without the narrative questioning those tropes.

ETA I’m an old cis white lady. I expect others will have far more rigorous standards.

 

[CMBright]

I would say it depends on the story being told. If the culture or subculture is artifically uniform, then the characters should reflect that uniformity. If the culture or subculture is artificially varied, then the characters should reflect that.

Beyond that, unless the POV character(s) is oblivious to the variation, the reader should be aware of the cultural diversity through the POV character(s), if it is impacts the narrative.

For example, I don't know the gender, political and religious beliefs, and sexual orientation of any given grocery store clerk in real life because I'm there to get what I need and get out. If the story was about that grocery store clerk sizing up customers to hit on the ones that fit their definition of potential life parter, as a reader, I would need to know at least their orientation since it affects the story.

 

[ChaseJxyz]

As the person who is normally The Diversity in any professional setting: it REALLY depends on the context lol. Like I work in tech in silicon valley. A large chunk of the people at these company are white (Americans, Canadians, Australians/New Zealands, or Europeans), but there's a TON of east Asians (China, Japan, {South} Korea) and Indians. So when we talk about "diversity" in regard to race in tech hiring, not only do we mean not-white, we also mean "we should probably look at people from other countries/backgrounds, too." Which means BIPOC (the actual definition of it, which is asian-exclusionary), Hispanic/Latino etc. And other parts of Asia, like the Philippines, the Hmong, Indonesia, etc.

For gender/sexuality stuff, it's not just people who are queer, it's people who do exist within the binary but aren't necessarily fitting into gender expectations. Like if women are allowed to have painted nails, can a man? Are women allowed to wear pants? Can they get away with not shaving their legs?

When it comes to stories, I don't really notice if a story is diverse anymore. But I DO notice if it's NOT diverse. Like when someones skin color is only brought up when it's not white...gee, why would you do that? Is it because you assume that white is the default and it's only worth mentioning when it's something else? Or when a gay person exists but only as The Gay Best Friend. Or the hair dresser. Like I love Legally Blonde, but it is gross that gay men only exist as a joke (like in the bend and snap scene) or for plot connivences. Like haha a man will only know what brand a shoe is if he was gay! Because straight men don't give a shit, am I right, ladies???? But gay men can be other than lispy, effeminate, catty gays. Including only that is like...congrats, you barely tried. I'm not counting this as diversity, though, because it's lazy and offensive.

I'd probably consider a story "diverse" if someone would be mad about it. Like a trans person existing and their whole story isn't about them suffering. Or lesbians/wlw existing and it's not to titillate straight men. Or any sort of "diverse" person existing and they're just vibing and the same as everyone else. Like the gay rat wedding in Arthur, or And Tango Makes Three, or whatever.

Oh yeah, another type of diversity that does exist but I don't think really counts as diversity is what I refer to as [Burger King Kids Club] diversity. This was really popular in the 90s, where you'd have a group of kids doing stuff, and you'd have one of each: Normal guy, black guy, asian, kid in wheelchair, nerd, Girl, and dog. Like how Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers had black guy, asian girl, nerd guy, normal boy, and normal girl. And, of course, by "normal", I mean cishet white and into activities that are normal for their gender/race/class. Like sports and cheerleading. Doing "diversity" like this is doing a one-of-each approach, instead of realizing that, you know, black girls exist. Black nerds exist. Making a separate person for each "group" pf people to like is lazy and gross.

 

[Clovitide]

- The book would have to include at least as much gender, sexuality, and racial diversity as I see in my local supermarket every Saturday.
- Non-white, cis, straight, male characters would have to be fully developed and not fall back on tropes, at least not without the narrative questioning those tropes.

ETA I’m an old cis white lady. I expect others will have far more rigorous standards.

What is the amount of diversity you see in your local supermarket? Because that does vary. My ex lived in a small town USA so when I went grocery shopping with him, it was mainly white older folks and I wouldn't constitute that as diverse. My own town supermarket was way more diverse, but also in a bigger town.

I would say it depends on the story being told. If the culture or subculture is artifically uniform, then the characters should reflect that uniformity. If the culture or subculture is artificially varied, then the characters should reflect that.

Beyond that, unless the POV character(s) is oblivious to the variation, the reader should be aware of the cultural diversity through the POV character(s), if it is impacts the narrative.

For example, I don't know the gender, political and religious beliefs, and sexual orientation of any given grocery store clerk in real life because I'm there to get what I need and get out. If the story was about that grocery store clerk sizing up customers to hit on the ones that fit their definition of potential life parter, as a reader, I would need to know at least their orientation since it affects the story.

What is your answer, though? If that story that's in a culture/subculture that is artificially uniform, would you mark it as diverse? Or would it be a no, or would it depend on the culture the character originates from?

As the person who is normally The Diversity in any professional setting: it REALLY depends on the context lol. Like I work in tech in silicon valley. A large chunk of the people at these company are white (Americans, Canadians, Australians/New Zealands, or Europeans), but there's a TON of east Asians (China, Japan, {South} Korea) and Indians. So when we talk about "diversity" in regard to race in tech hiring, not only do we mean not-white, we also mean "we should probably look at people from other countries/backgrounds, too." Which means BIPOC (the actual definition of it, which is asian-exclusionary), Hispanic/Latino etc. And other parts of Asia, like the Philippines, the Hmong, Indonesia, etc.

I'm not completely tracking what you're saying here... I wouldn't think diversity in a professional setting depended too much on the profession, especially in something like tech. Though, if I was in China town, I'd see a whole lot more Asians than anyone else working there. Then again, it's not unheard of for there to be outliers.

I'd probably consider a story "diverse" if someone would be mad about it. Like a trans person existing and their whole story isn't about them suffering. Or lesbians/wlw existing and it's not to titillate straight men. Or any sort of "diverse" person existing and they're just vibing and the same as everyone else. Like the gay rat wedding in Arthur, or And Tango Makes Three, or whatever.

Agreed.

Oh yeah, another type of diversity that does exist but I don't think really counts as diversity is what I refer to as [Burger King Kids Club] diversity. This was really popular in the 90s, where you'd have a group of kids doing stuff, and you'd have one of each: Normal guy, black guy, asian, kid in wheelchair, nerd, Girl, and dog. Like how Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers had black guy, asian girl, nerd guy, normal boy, and normal girl. And, of course, by "normal", I mean cishet white and into activities that are normal for their gender/race/class. Like sports and cheerleading. Doing "diversity" like this is doing a one-of-each approach, instead of realizing that, you know, black girls exist. Black nerds exist. Making a separate person for each "group" pf people to like is lazy and gross.

I don't know about this one... unless these characters are filling out a stereotype and the cast become too large to fit all of the different types of diversity? If the show/movie/book series was going to have this many in the cast, would you have rather if they were all white-cis? If they added the characters to the story just for the sake of diversity and they don't play an actual role then that would be bad.

 

[Unimportant]

So my question boils down to, if you saw these 4 option, what would be the minimum requirement a book needed to make a 'Yes' in your head?

Because I saw some books that I would give a No and the amount of of It's Complicated and Yes votes were on par with the No.

I reckon that's because no two individuals (let along five or ten or fifty) are going to have the same definition for "acceptable level of diversity". It's going to be based on their own personal reading preferences, which in turn is going to be based on everything about their lives and life experiences.

If they come with explanations (e.g. Yes, very diverse, there were people of all cultural and religious backgrounds, races, sexualities and genders; or No, not very diverse, every single character was a white gay man or a white lesbian woman and there was not a single het or trans or person of colour to be found; or It's Complicated because every character was an animal, there are no humans in this book) that would help other folks make an informed decision. If it's just Y/N/M, then -- unless people are using these recommendations based on the fact that they know the people making the recommendations personally and know their reading tastes, I can't really see that it'd be of much use.

 

[CMBright]

What is your answer, though? If that story that's in a culture/subculture that is artificially uniform, would you mark it as diverse? Or would it be a no, or would it depend on the culture the character originates from?

My answer is it depends on the story. My answer is how do you define diversity? The characters are individuals. Individuals are diverse.

My artificially uniform mouseling characters are diverse in their fur coloration and where they are on various mental spectrums such as cautious to anxious.

I believe that "normal" is a myth. Characters and individuals are (or should be) inherently diverse, no matter how typical they are.

 

[Clovitide]

My answer is it depends on the story. My answer is how do you define diversity? The characters are individuals. Individuals are diverse.

My artificially uniform mouseling characters are diverse in their fur coloration and where they are on various mental spectrums such as cautious to anxious.

I believe that "normal" is a myth. Characters and individuals are (or should be) inherently diverse, no matter how typical they are.

I feel like out of the four answer, you'd be a 'It's complicated' for many stories.

I reckon that's because no two individuals (let along five or ten or fifty) are going to have the same definition for "acceptable level of diversity". It's going to be based on their own personal reading preferences, which in turn is going to be based on everything about their lives and life experiences.

Which is why I'm asking. I know what makes a story diverse to me, and I'm curious to see how others think.

If they come with explanations (e.g. Yes, very diverse, there were people of all cultural and religious backgrounds, races, sexualities and genders; or No, not very diverse, every single character was a white gay man or a white lesbian woman and there was not a single het or trans or person of colour to be found; or It's Complicated because every character was an animal, there are no humans in this book) that would help other folks make an informed decision. If it's just Y/N/M, then -- unless people are using these recommendations based on the fact that they know the people making the recommendations personally and know their reading tastes, I can't really see that it'd be of much use.

You can see individual responses on the website and sometimes people back up their responses. Other times they don't.

 

[lizmonster]

What is the amount of diversity you see in your local supermarket? Because that does vary.

It does vary, and I chose that metric for a reason.

I live in New England, which is famously really, really white. And yet when I go grocery shopping, I see people of all ethnicities, kids with multicolored hair and piercings, and employee name badges with pronouns on them (including they/them).

If lily-white New England has this kind of diversity and your book doesn't? I'm side-eyeing you. If there's a story reason, I want it to be a good one.

 

[Unimportant]

Which is why I'm asking. I know what makes a story diverse to me, and I'm curious to see how others think.

For me, it's about verisimilitude. If I read a story set in a tiny village in Egypt in the Blahblah dynasty of three thousand years ago, it would be unrealistic to have any white characters. If I read a story set in contemporary NYC, it would unrealistic to have only white characters. If I read a story set in the army camp down the road from me, it would be unrealistic to have a majority of white characters.

Like @lizmonster said -- if the story is set in my grocery store, I expect the characters to reflect the diversity of people I see in my grocery store. A grocery store elsewhere may have a different makeup.

 

[CWNitz]

I don't think you need a checklist of every type of person to be included. But yeah, if your characters are all white, or all men except one LI woman, or all straight, I would notice.

Apart from the simple "existing" requirement, I also don't consider a story diverse if the "diverse" characters don't have agency. If we have one straight white cis male hero who saves the damsel in distress, rescues a fictional civilization of Black people, and has his exploits sung by the gay troubadour, that's not diverse. Even if every character is well-developed, not stereotypical, interesting, and whatever. If they don't act on the plot, it doesn't count.

 

[Speedyg]

One of these is the basic question of: Diverse cast of characters? No, Yes, It's Complicated, and N/A.

The answer may depend on the motivation of the person answering.

Some people find the notion of diversity offensive (barmy but true) and so will be answering 'yes', hoping to put like-minded people off the work. They would, of course, also like a field with 'woke' in it. Let's hope there isn't one of those.

Some people find the notion of diversity a perfectly regular thing, but would still answer across a range based on their experience and what they want to read.

Opinions will vary and boiling them down to those answers without context reduces makes them lightweight. 'Complicated' as an answer is just a get out.

As people have already said, diversity should be appropriate for the setting and the book. Readers will make an individual assessment of whether something is right. Writers should take care to properly represent what they are writing about and create believable characters who drive the story.

I wouldn't fill in Y/N/NA/Complicated boxes myself as I think the data produced from those fields wouldn't be of much value. It feels like a fast food approach. This isn't a criticism of people who want to fill it in. We aren't all the same.

Full circle.

 

[CMBright]

As noted, context is important. I've seen stereotypical white, blond, English speakers as token diversity characters (or just for humor or other reasons) in anime. What is diverse set in Brrr (fictional town with a population of under a hundred in the Cat Who done-it series) will be very different from New York City or Los Angeles or London. Or Tokyo for that matter.

Then you have the type of reader who complains about any diversity in media.

 

[Norsebard]

Diversity is such a can of wiggly fish food. It also depends on where the story is set, IMO.


In all honesty, I feel that 'checklist diversity' is worse than no diversity at all. Like Chase said further up in this thread, when it becomes noticeable that there's literally one of each to fill the requirements, it's too much of a good thing. IM-H-O, diversity needs to be organic to be natural.


To use the supermarket example: In my neck of the woods, out in the Danish boonies, 99.85 % of all customers are white with the occasional person / family of Arabic or Turkish ethnicity. Once in a blue moon, someone from Far East Asia or central Africa will shop there.

During the pre-noon hours, a vast majority of customers are senior citizens; at 1-2 pm or so, that'll change to twenty-something women with young children just home from pre-school, and at 5 pm or so, it'll change again to blue-collar people (mostly, but not exclusively, guys) wearing work clothes so typical of plumbers, carpenters and all the other traditional blue-collar jobs.

Gender and sexual identity play zero role over here (in a supermarket setting! ), so they're not even on the scale.


In short, if I'm to tell a reality-based story taking place in a local supermarket anywhere in the Danish countryside, I won't be able to add much diversity without having it seem fake and 'checklist.'

It's such a can of wiggly fish food.


Norsebard

 

[lizmonster]

In short, if I'm to tell a reality-based story taking place in a local supermarket anywhere in the Danish countryside, I won't be able to add much diversity without having it seem fake and 'checklist.'

I guess I assumed the skill of the writer in making real-world diversity read naturally.

I also feel like "But I don't see that out my window/in my generic HBO pseudo-fantasy series" has been too long an excuse for white writers to write like there's nobody else on the planet.

Of course don't write something clunky.

But I was answering the original question, which was what I, personally, would consider a minimum requirement to say "yes, this book includes a diverse cast of characters." My local supermarket is very, verry white - but not exclusively. It presents a really, really low bar, and to find people arguing over it is downright strange.

 

[Makkura]

I don't think diversity is negotiable. The definitions are clear, as is the responsibility of the creator.

This doesn't mean complying with a checklist. It means understanding that the world needs better stories, stories that don't exclude and marginalize. It means doing the little you can, not arguing that you're exempt because all Elves are white.

I'm going to sound like a dick here, but I recommend exploring other cultures and experiences with an open mind and an open heart. You might find inspiration and delight. You might make your stories better than they are.

 

[CWNitz]

I do agree that a Danish supermarket shouldn't look like a supermarket in the US. And there's an expectation, in English-speaking literature, that "diverse" should mean "representative of all American minorities." Which is a problem.

But there are minorities in Denmark too, right? You could have Romani characters, or like you said, a Turkish family. I also disagree that gender and sexual orientation don't play a role in a supermarket setting. If you want to buy clothes, or hygiene products, your gender matters. If you're out as a family with gay parents, your sexual orientation matters.

 

[Woollybear]

So my question boils down to, if you saw these 4 option, what would be the minimum requirement a book needed to make a 'Yes' in your head?

Minimum requirement for me, I think, is that I have an emotional reaction to a fully developed character of any unexpected representation who works well in the role they play. (I think I'm saying the author attempted diversity and succeeded on the basis of my surprise and delight at inclusion and execution.) It's less about the numbers and more about impact.

 

[lizmonster]

I do agree that a Danish supermarket shouldn't look like a supermarket in the US. And there's an expectation, in English-speaking literature, that "diverse" should mean "representative of all American minorities." Which is a problem.

I...don't recall ever encountering this expectation.

But there are minorities in Denmark too, right? You could have Romani characters, or like you said, a Turkish family. I also disagree that gender and sexual orientation don't play a role in a supermarket setting. If you want to buy clothes, or hygiene products, your gender matters. If you're out as a family with gay parents, your sexual orientation matters.

It's always interesting to look at a discussion and see who's being called out as "other."

I suppose I'm just exhausted by the volume of fantasy in "medieval European" settings that can posit elaborate magic systems and fantastical animals, but can't imagine anyone who isn't white, or women who aren't mothers, prostitutes, or nuns. Apart from being exceedingly depressing to read, the author is relying on ahistorical assumptions.

I'm as guilty as anyone of leaning on known tropes. But I don't think any story suffers if we try to do better. If it does? We need to be better writers.

 

[neandermagnon]

If a book's set in London and all the characters are white cis het men apart from one token white cis het woman, then I'm going to think I walked into a white supremacist incel meeting by mistake, because London is not like that. Ditto if it's a genre where I'd expect humans from all walks of life to be around.

For historical genres, I'd expect the diversity to match reality, with the caveat that most times and places had a lot more diversity than most people realise. For example, look at the genetic studies into people on the Mary Rose, a Tudor ship which famously sank in the English Channel. People tend to assume that everyone on the Mary Rose would be English and white, but it turns out there were quite a few from various parts of Europe and even North Africa. People have always moved around. The idea that everyone stayed in the same place and lived in ethnically and culturally homogenous isolated populations until someone invented the aeroplane is a myth.

https://maryrose.org/news/the-many-faces-of-tudor-england/

From the article:

"‘Henry’, one of the most complete of the 92 reconstructed crew skeletons, is among the most intriguing discoveries. His bones and teeth tell us the story of his life. He was aged between 14 and 18. His left shoulder blade had deep depressions where the ligaments attached, and he had well-developed muscles. His spine showed signs of osteoarthritis and degenerative disease.

Oxygen isotope analysis of his teeth suggests that he was raised in Britain, in areas of high rainfall - the West or South, whilst his sulphur value suggests that he was born within 50km of the coast. This is consistent with his strontium isotope ratio, which suggests he was raised in an area of Palaeozoic geology, such as is found in North Devon. His nitrogen value is high, so he ate lots of animal protein, whilst his carbon value points to more of a land-based rather than marine-based diet. Analysis of Henry’s rib shows similar results to his teeth, so he probably didn’t have any great change in his diet in adolescence.

One of Henry’s teeth was extracted for DNA analysis. His nuclear DNA (information coming from both parents) suggest that he came from North Africa, making Henry genetically similar to current day Moroccans, Mozabite Berbers of Algeria or individuals from the Near East. His mitochondrial DNA (passed almost exclusively from mother to offspring through egg cells) is consistent with this ancestry but may also suggest that his mother hailed from Britain."

and

"Another particularly surprising discovery is that of the Archer Royal, who was found trapped under the rear axle of a bronze cannon on the main deck, his longbow beside him. Because of the famed longbow skills of English forces, it has always been presumed that this Archer was English. In his early 20s and standing 5ft 10in, he was taller than most of the crew. Although well-built and with particularly strong legs, the centre of his spine was twisted, a common feature of the Mary Rose crew found with archery equipment. This high-status individual was wearing a leather wristguard decorated with the Royal Arms of England and Katherine of Aragon’s badges – the triple turret of Castile and the pomegranate symbol of Granada.

But what is so special about this Royal Archer? Oxygen isotope analysis on his teeth tells provided a value is much higher than the British norm – one of the highest ever to be recorded in Britain - suggesting he was not born in Britain. A higher oxygen value suggests he grew up in a hotter climate. His sulphur value was very low so he was not raised near the coast. His nitrogen, carbon and sulphur values suggest a terrestrial diet with little or no marine food. His high nitrogen suggests he had diet rich in animal protein and his strontium isotope ratio could relate to limestone areas, which exist across Europe and parts of North Africa. It is now believed that this Royal Archer may have come from inland North Africa, over 50 km from the coast."


The Mary Rose sank in 1545. Now if someone were to write a piece of historical fiction from the time - or fantasy fiction based on Europe from this period, and they had a character who was half-Berber raised in Britain, or where a North African person was Archer Royal under a Tudor king, lots of people would be all "oh the wokeness... not realistic... too much woke..."

 

[Norsebard]

This doesn't mean complying with a checklist. It means understanding that the world needs better stories, stories that don't exclude and marginalize. It means doing the little you can, not arguing that you're exempt because all Elves are white.

Oh, there's no doubt about that

But there are minorities in Denmark too, right? You could have Romani characters, or like you said, a Turkish family (...)

Sure - and I will, if I ever write a scene set in a Danish supermarket (not a scenario I've explored, but who knows what might happen in the future... )


I get the sense my earlier post kinda derailed the thread which wasn't my intention... I better bow out now


Norsebard