Complex Comma Question

[BudMcMann]

I have a sentence with two problematic dialogue references (not direct dialogue):

She says, “Ara maa!” (this is the lead-in, no problem here)
It’s a multi-purpose Japanese expression that roughly translates to “Oh, my!” sort of like the way Grammy could say “Well, bless your heart, sweetie” to either praise her grandchild or tell the snippy cashier “Fuck you.”

1. How should I punctuate "Oh, my!"?
   1. Comma after "...translates to"?
   2. Comma after the exclamation? I think "...sort of like" needs a preceding comma, but how would that work with the exclamation?
      1. One option is to break it into two sentences: "...translates to 'Oh, my!' It's sort of like..", but I would rather keep it flowing as one.
2. Similar for "Grammy could say, 'Well, bless your heart, sweetie' "
   1. Comma after "say"?
   2. Comma after "sweetie?"

Other options for breaking up the sentence to resolve this?

Thanks for any comments or suggestions,
-Bud

 

[Maryn]

This is indeed a thorny one! I have A Thing about commas, in that I cannot, will not, put a comma or period after an exclamation point or question mark, even if it's part of a title. For example, the proper name of the game show is Jeopardy!, but I can't allow "Did you see Jeopardy!?" or "I love Whose Line is It, Anyway?," said Maryn. It's just so wrong to the eye I won't tolerate it.

The same issue comes up with your translation to "Oh, my!" For that reason, I'm going to recommend reconstructing the text to sidestep the problem. Technically, you do need a comma after that exclamation point, but no. I'd put the comma after say, treating it like a dialogue tag.

So can I take a stab at it?

She says, “Ara maa!”
The multi-purpose Japanese expression roughly translates to “Oh, my!” with as many meanings as Grammy's “Well, bless your heart, sweetie,” used either to praise her grandchild or tell the snippy cashier, “Fuck you.”

 

[JudiH]

I'm sure someone who knows the whys and wherefores will be able to give you better answers, but here's my 2 cents.

I have a sentence with two problematic dialogue references (not direct dialogue):

She says, “Ara maa!” (this is the lead-in, no problem here)
It’s a multi-purpose Japanese expression that roughly translates to “Oh, my!” sort of like the way Grammy could say “Well, bless your heart, sweetie” to either praise her grandchild or tell the snippy cashier “Fuck you.”

1. How should I punctuate "Oh, my!"?
   1. Comma after "...translates to"?

It's not a direct quote, so I think no comma.

1. 1. Comma after the exclamation? I think "...sort of like" needs a preceding comma, but how would that work with the exclamation?
      1. One option is to break it into two sentences: "...translates to 'Oh, my!' It's sort of like..", but I would rather keep it flowing as one.

This one I'm not sure about. It does need a comma, but heck if I know where you'd put it.

• Similar for "Grammy could say, 'Well, bless your heart, sweetie' "
  1. Comma after "say"?

Again, not a direct quote, so I think no comma.

1. 1. Comma after "sweetie?"

I think no comma here, either.

Other options for breaking up the sentence to resolve this?

Thanks for any comments or suggestions,
-Bud

I keep looking at it, trying to decide how I'd change it if it were mine. What if you cut the words I've lined out and put a comma after "expression"?

It’s a multi-purpose Japanese expression that roughly translates to “Oh, my!” sort of like the way Grammy could say “Well, bless your heart, sweetie” to either praise her grandchild or tell the snippy cashier “Fuck you.”

 

[BudMcMann]

The multi-purpose Japanese expression roughly translates to “Oh, my!” with as many meanings as Grammy's “Well, bless your heart, sweetie,” used either to praise her grandchild or tell the snippy cashier, “Fuck you.”

That's pretty good. The "with" can slip by without a comma better than any other option I've tried. I twisted that a bit:

It’s a multi-purpose Japanese expression that roughly translates to “Oh, my!” with a flexible meaning that depends on the context, sort of like the way Grammy could tailor her “Well, bless your heart, sweetie,” to either praise her grandchild or tell the snippy cashier “Fuck you.”​

Thanks! You're the best.
-Bud

 

[BudMcMann]

It’s a multi-purpose Japanese expression that roughly translates to “Oh, my!” sort of like the way Grammy could say “Well, bless your heart, sweetie” to either praise her grandchild or tell the snippy cashier “Fuck you.”

Thanks for the response, Judi. I want to show the "Oh, my!" because it lends it's up-down-up inflection to the "Ara maa!" (a probable cognate to "Oh, my!" similar to the way pineapple is painappuru in Japanese). Yours is cleaner and more efficient, which is always good, too.

-Bud

BTW, if I may get on my soapbox, CMOS is great, but this is one reason I object to their decision to push punctuation to the inside of quotation marks. I spent over sixty years placing my commas on the outside (don't know where I learned that--seventh grade?) before my editor corrected my usage, but it just looks wrong to me.

 

[JudiH]

Thanks for the response, Judi. I want to show the "Oh, my!" because it lends it's up-down-up inflection to the "Ara maa!" (a probable cognate to "Oh, my!" similar to the way pineapple is painappuru in Japanese). Yours is cleaner and more efficient, which is always good, too.

I thought you'd want to keep it. I couldn't figure out how to do that while still keeping the "sort of like" transition. Glad it's your sentence, not mine!

-Bud

BTW, if I may get on my soapbox, CMOS is great, but this is one reason I object to their decision to push punctuation to the inside of quotation marks. I spent over sixty years placing my commas on the outside (don't know where I learned that--seventh grade?) before my editor corrected my usage, but it just looks wrong to me.