Are you revising while querying?

jonxihama

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I personally like to have all my submission materials (full MS, query, synopsis, etc.) in a presentable state before I send the first query. Ideally multiple beta readers/critique partners read the MS and a separate group of people critique the query and synopsis. Only then do I send out the first batch of queries. From reading the forums, it seems some people are revising their pages as they query and, in some cases, even sending agents revised pages after submitting a partial or a full. This is absolutely bonkers to me. I don't mean to imply that my materials are "perfect" by any means, but I think there's a point in self-revising where the story changes but isn't necessary improving. Curious to hear your thoughts.
 
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CMBright

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In my opinion, ideally work should be as close to finished as possible when one is ready to submit. One might realize one is wrong about it being almost ready, but to submit before one believes one has finished editing strikes me as odd.

This is different from thinking a work is more ready for submission than it actually is.
 

Maggie Maxwell

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Ideally you want to be as ready as possible before you sub, but sometimes, things happen, and that's okay. You may get a rejection with advice or an R&R or unexpected beta feedback that helps you make your novel better and another agent comes back with a full request, or you already have fulls out. Maybe you read a book or watch a TV show that suddenly changes your perspective and resolves issues you'd thought were done better than before. There can be many reasons that you'd go back and revise after starting submission thinking you were done. It's not ideal, obviously, because it means burnt bridges with some agents or publishers you already subbed to, but if you have reason to believe you can make it better after you've started subbing, there's no reason not to go ahead and try.
 

MaeZe

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I have never stopped revising. I'm happy with the novel but that doesn't stop me from constantly thinking I can improve upon it.
 
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jonxihama

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I have never stopped revising. I'm happy with the novel but that doesn't stop me from constantly thinking I can improve upon it.
I"m curious to know when do you decide it's time to query?
 
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MaeZe

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I"m curious to know when do you decide it's time to query?
Oh it's time for me to query, no doubt. I sent my ultra-polished first chapter off to the open submissions call at Tin House Publishing this evening. I still tinkered with the chapter before I sent it.

My description of the "project" on the other hand, was totally klutzy and now I'm thinking, 'oh well, it was good to get started'. I'll be surprised if they ask for a full. If they do it'll be because they didn't bin it before reading the chapter. I have yet to acquire the skill of writing a query letter.
 
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jonxihama

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Oh it's time for me to query, no doubt. I sent my ultra-polished first chapter off to the open submissions call at Tin House Publishing this evening. I still tinkered with the chapter before I sent it.

My description of the "project" on the other hand, was totally klutzy and now I'm thinking, 'oh well, it was good to get started'. I'll be surprised if they ask for a full. If they do it'll be because they didn't bin it before reading the chapter. I have yet to acquire the skill of writing a query letter.
My question was more, if you are constantly revising, at what point have you done enough revising to start querying? Or are you saying that you haven't gone through query letter hell yet?
 
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ChaseJxyz

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There are two broad categories of revising:

-Changing big things, like structure, character motivations, etc

-Changing little things, like "dark" to "gloomy" or maybe "dismal"

You can absolutely get trapped on the second thing, constantly adding or removing commas or picking a slightly better word then changing your mind later. You can polish and polish and polish and try to get to "100%," but that's impossible, because art is subjective, so you are never going to make every single person who reads your story happy, and that includes beta readers. And that includes yourself, too.

You need to be mindful of what kinds of revisions you're doing, and if it's really accomplishing anything. In an ideal situation, you have had multiple beta readers, you've put your ms down and come back to it a month or more later, done a few rounds of editing, and done your own round of line by line editing. So all that big things have been fixed and you've done the best you can fixing most of the little things (and hopefully all of the "objective" little things, like spelling mistakes, forgetting a period etc). But if you're in an endless cycle of revising the subjective little things, you are never going to be finished.

Say you're an engineer and you have to make a car that goes 100 miles an hour (pretend this is before cars went this fast). A lot of hard work is going to get the entire car designed, and you end up with a car that goes 80mph. You go back and redo some things, and now it's 85 mph. But if you totally redo the tires, you'll get another 5%. A spoiler on the rear gets a couple more mph. But once you get to 95 mph, everything left you could possibly do requires a TON of effort for only an additional 1 mph, maybe. Redesigning the whole thing to be lighter takes a lot of work, you need to use new materials, you need to re-tool a bunch of stuff at the factory, you'll have to re-certify all the safety tests. Is all that time and money worth another 1 mph?

The closer you get to 100% completion, the more effort it takes for even lesser gains, as you've already picked all the low-hanging fruit. Perfect is the enemy of done. And, in something totally subjective like art (which is what writing is), there is no singular "perfect" you can aim for.

Knowing when you are done is something YOU have to figure out yourself. And if you are a perfectionist, that would be incredibly hard to figure out.
 

starrystorm

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I don't. If they want the first ten pages or so, then I might. But by the time I am querying, I have what I believe to be a polished manuscript to the best of my and my beta readers' skills.
 

Jlombardi

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There are two broad categories of revising:

-Changing big things, like structure, character motivations, etc

-Changing little things, like "dark" to "gloomy" or maybe "dismal"


I agree and think writers really have to look at their MSs and decide where they are in those two things.

I don't think it is unusual for ppl in the 2nd category to be submitting. My guess is it's not hurting their chances, and they would get nothing out the door if they waited until they felt they were at 100%. As ChseJxyz said, perfect is the enemy of done.

I will share my personal decision not to query while revising.

I realized I was in the first category during my first round of queries. My MS had major issues plotting and character arch. I decided to spend a year learning and trying to fix them. I am also working on trying to get my MS into ultra-deep third POV. That takes time, and anything I send out now will be a mess. My story also mostly takes place in Siberia in the near future. I started it before the war. But people are suffering terribly right now due to Russian aggression, and I don't want to be tone-death to that. I just haven't figured out how to address the elephant in the room yet.

I joined a critique circle before spending much time here. Most of us were not ready to query and did not know until we started getting feedback. All of us had queried agents. We had one member with over 200 rejections under their belt. I think that's 200 wasted opportunities.

If I send out stuff now, I go from a low chance to zero chance.