Am I being made a fool of?

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mirandashell

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If you can think of selling your skills only in terms of prostitution, maybe you shouldn't do it? Cos that's quite a lot of people you are insulting.
 

Fruitbat

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That's great then, R. Now she can take it or leave it and it will be resolved. Yay!
 

Ravioli

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If you can think of selling your skills only in terms of prostitution, maybe you shouldn't do it? Cos that's quite a lot of people you are insulting.
I think prostitution is cool, but I also know how they're seen by most people outside the field, and that is as cheap and non-selfrespecting. I should rephrase my self-comparisons to prostitutes and say, I feel like she thinks I'm one. I was a hooker and proud, but I don't like being treated the way society sees us.

Anyway, $100 it is and I got a $50 down payment.
 
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Fruitbat

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That's great, R. I think standing up for yourself (generic "you") politely with friends is often way harder than when you're dealing with a business. When I'm dealing with a business, I don't play around. But I've sometimes taken too much crap off friends to the point that I finally couldn't stand them and ditched them. Maybe I'd still have them if I spoke up more. You done good!

ETA: I don't think you've insulted anyone. In fact, I think your self-expression has become far more genteel since you were first on here hahaha.
 
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Ravioli

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Then you should count prostitutes in with the people feeling insulted.
Wait then whom else were you referring to previously?

That's great, R. I think standing up for yourself (generic "you") politely with friends is often way harder than when you're dealing with a business. When I'm dealing with a business, I don't play around. But I've sometimes taken too much crap off friends to the point that I finally couldn't stand them and ditched them. Maybe I'd still have them if I spoke up more. You done good!

ETA: I don't think you've insulted anyone. In fact, I think your self-expression has become far more genteel since you were first on here hahaha.
I've sucked at speaking up and being assertive for most of my life, but life in Israel has dunked me into an ugly goo of baptism of "Speak up or get trampled". It still feels crappy with friends, but as you said. One has to.
Yeah, I've become nicer, mostly because I'm friends with my favourite musician now and I want to make a good impression. Faking a civilised disposition has become a habit until it's become real :tongue
 

mirandashell

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Everyone who sells their skills for a living.

Seeing as I didn't know you didn't hold the same view as society about prostitutes, I assumed you were using prostitution as an insult.

Now I know differently I don't actually know what your point was. Other than selling your skills made you feel bad.

But what the hey. Doesn't matter.


And by the way, Fruitbat would disagree with me if I said the sky is blue. Just so you know.
 

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Everyone who sells their skills for a living.

Seeing as I didn't know you didn't hold the same view as society about prostitutes, I assumed you were using prostitution as an insult.

Now I know differently I don't actually know what your point was. Other than selling your skills made you feel bad.

But what the hey. Doesn't matter.


And by the way, Fruitbat would disagree with me if I said the sky is blue. Just so you know.
My point was that I was treated the way society, not I, views sex workers: "Here's $5, now give me the full monty plus extras". My personal point of view is obviously different.
So yeah, I don't use the word whore as an insult reflecting my views but rather reflecting those treating people as whores. I'm too tired to string together any sentence that makes sense.

I edited out all those references. In retrospect, they sound exactly like Mirandashell says they sound.
 
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Alessandra Kelley

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<Mod hat on>
Sex work is a complex topic and I do not think a discussion of it belongs here. It should be possible to talk of ill-treatment and exploitation without using insulting language.
</Mod hat on>

<Artist hat on>
It's very helpful to have some sort of a written agreement before handling an illustration job to avoid just these sorts of misunderstandings.

Filigree's advice is solid:
What you describe? I would have charged $100 for the first piece, half down upon signing, half on delivery or no more than 30 days after. After that you charge her 5% per every week late, accruing weekly. For the whole job? $500 to $800 depending on complexity. She gets three free changes per designed piece, after that another 5% fee added per each change beyond three. You make sure you never take on a job you can't ace. You ace every project you take on. You have respect for your work, and demand your clients do the same.

My option would be to salvage the friendship and any possibility (slight) of further economic benefit, be honest about how uncomfortable you are, do only the first piece(s) agreed upon, and tell her (kindly) to go look on Fiverr for the rest. Then step back. She may be a friend but she's probably not going to ever be a good business risk.

I get that money is tight. The only thing you will get out of this is a meager payment and maybe some portfolio pieces.

If you haven't pitched to that agent I mentioned, do it now. Keep writing if you can. Find any scut job you can, even for just a little while. This friend of yours won't do you any financial favors.

In my opinion the artist should always be paid a reasonable minimum rate out of simple humanity and respect for work. The artist's skill level may impact the price in the upward direction; but in my experience discounts given for low quality do not lead to better jobs and selling oneself cheap does not ever seem to get one out of financial holes.

I am not comfortable with clients getting away with using the artists' urgent need for money to pay less than a fair rate.





</Artist hat on>
 
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Ravioli

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<Mod hat on>
Sex work is a complex topic and I do not think a discussion of it belongs here. It should be possible to talk of ill-treatment and exploitation without using insulting language.
</Mod hat on>
Sorry. I can come across as an a-hole, especially when I don't mean to but am pissed. Whatever the case or however I come across, I'll always be the sector's Katniss :hooray:Except with horrible skin.
I edited out all those references. In retrospect, they sound exactly like Mirandashell says they sound.​





<Artist hat on>
It's very helpful to have some sort of a written agreement before handling an illustration job to avoid just these sorts of misunderstandings.

Filigree's advice is solid:


In my opinion the artist should always be paid a reasonable minimum rate out of simple humanity and respect for work. The artist's skill level may impact the price in the upward direction; but in my experience discounts given for low quality do not lead to better jobs and selling oneself cheap does not ever seem to get one out of financial holes.

I am not comfortable with clients getting away with using the artists' urgent need for money to pay less than a fair rate.
Indeed, I've copypasted Filigree's advice for future reference :) I'm cheap as is, like $10/hour or mostly 2 digit flats, but there's a line. I really enjoyed illustrating a kids' book for $40 a piece (cover will be more), because it was fun, easy, I made a great friend, and I'm excited to think that my art may be in children's bedtime stories now. But when we're talking about 15 x $40 + fun doing it, that's different. Plus, she doesn't know about that.
 
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Chumplet

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I was in a similar situation where I was asked to design a logo based on a sketch for the daughter of a friend, even though I'm not technically a logo designer. I design ads, not logos. I did it as a favor, and was awarded a pile of hand made soap and a bottle of red wine (I don't drink red, but I guess it's my fault I didn't specify that).

It was a long, drawn out (ha) affair, where the daughter made persnickety micro adjustments. I finally put my foot down (with her mother's support) and said if she wanted to mess with it on her own, she was welcome to it.

I'm not doing it again.

I hope your financial situation improves really soon, Rav.
 

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It is not their fault (the person seeking the designer) if you are inexperienced and are therefore slow. $40 to INPUT something already designed and something small is a good price. An experienced designer could have DESIGNED that in 30 minutes. That's an $80-an-hour rate at 30 minutes.

But if someone inexperienced takes a couple hours, it's not the customer's fault you're slow because you're inexperienced and therefore cutting into your profit margin. Anyways, it's still a good rate, $20 an hour.

Just because you are having a rough time financially, it's not the customer's responsibility to hike up the price to help you out. Again, as I've said before, you are taking into account how much money she supposedly is making. You cannot be doing that. It has colored your thinking. You need to charge for what you think the JOB SCOPE is worth, not because you think she can afford it because she's supposedly rolling in the dough.
 
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Filigree

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Chompers is wise, and has infected a sobering note of reality. It's always best to separate the job from the client, and give the job a cold, clear look before saying 'Yes'.

Everything I shared in my post was because of mistakes I made with clients and jobs. Some quite costly. I've learned to say 'No' a lot more than I might have when starting out. I don't have the skill for some things. Or the time, for others. Some clients are obviously trouble.

Ravioli, I'm going to be PMing you when I've had a bit more caffeine.
 

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So, I've gone and done it, and now I don't dare open Facebook or my email for fear of seeing her response. I blocked her on Facebook and other social media, but y'know... but I just had to. She posted how she was gonna get the new iPhone, oh okay, and yesterday she invited her family to sushi, all this while I'm eating canned beans and my dogs' ribs are showing. So yeah, I may or may not have told her to keep her money because I'm so goddamn done with her. She had promised me monthly 2% royalties of the 5 figure profits she bragged about, never heard about it again. I've been waiting for weeks for the other $50 of that slave wage she knew I only accepted because I need to grab for every penny; hell I'm asking strangers for donations. She keeps posting about how great her life is, her short vacations and spa and stuff, new tats, now an iPhone, while I'm not being paid what, $50? Welp, I kinda tore into her on that iPhone post, and now I'm out. She's having a nice blooming business at my expense, I got paid less than half of what I was promised if you count those 2%, and less than 1/10 of what I should have gotten in the first place, and I've soured both our days, but I was so done smiling through this less-than-minimum wage job that was earning her good money. I'd rather not get paid than keep hating myself and her and her cat every time I see her bragging on my feed.
 

mccardey

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So, I've gone and done it, and now I don't dare open Facebook or my email for fear of seeing her response. I blocked her on Facebook and other social media, but y'know... but I just had to. She posted how she was gonna get the new iPhone, oh okay, and yesterday she invited her family to sushi, all this while I'm eating canned beans and my dogs' ribs are showing. So yeah, I may or may not have told her to keep her money because I'm so goddamn done with her. She had promised me monthly 2% royalties of the 5 figure profits she bragged about, never heard about it again. I've been waiting for weeks for the other $50 of that slave wage she knew I only accepted because I need to grab for every penny; hell I'm asking strangers for donations. She keeps posting about how great her life is, her short vacations and spa and stuff, new tats, now an iPhone, while I'm not being paid what, $50? Welp, I kinda tore into her on that iPhone post, and now I'm out. She's having a nice blooming business at my expense, I got paid less than half of what I was promised if you count those 2%, and less than 1/10 of what I should have gotten in the first place, and I've soured both our days, but I was so done smiling through this less-than-minimum wage job that was earning her good money. I'd rather not get paid than keep hating myself and her and her cat every time I see her bragging on my feed.

I'm not sure what you have done now, but it looks like it was neither business nor friendship. If that helps at all.
 
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EMaree

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So, I've gone and done it, and now I don't dare open Facebook or my email for fear of seeing her response. I blocked her on Facebook and other social media, but y'know... but I just had to. She posted how she was gonna get the new iPhone, oh okay, and yesterday she invited her family to sushi, all this while I'm eating canned beans and my dogs' ribs are showing. So yeah, I may or may not have told her to keep her money because I'm so goddamn done with her. She had promised me monthly 2% royalties of the 5 figure profits she bragged about, never heard about it again. I've been waiting for weeks for the other $50 of that slave wage she knew I only accepted because I need to grab for every penny; hell I'm asking strangers for donations. She keeps posting about how great her life is, her short vacations and spa and stuff, new tats, now an iPhone, while I'm not being paid what, $50? Welp, I kinda tore into her on that iPhone post, and now I'm out. She's having a nice blooming business at my expense, I got paid less than half of what I was promised if you count those 2%, and less than 1/10 of what I should have gotten in the first place, and I've soured both our days, but I was so done smiling through this less-than-minimum wage job that was earning her good money. I'd rather not get paid than keep hating myself and her and her cat every time I see her bragging on my feed.

Oh, heck, Ravioli. I know you're upset, but if you're going to behave like this it won't be wise to continue pursuing art as a business.

You just made a business agreement void and cheated yourself out of money you were owed, in public and written form.

You just tore into a client publicly, revealing details about a business agreement, which means that client could now pursue you for reputation damage.

You may have breached confidentially, if your pay agreement was supposed to be confidential.

Please check your local laws and consider deleting the posts, but be aware that Facebook drama lovers have likely already taken screenshots.

This behavior will only escalate the situation. No matter how desperate your financial situation gets, you can't risk legal action like this. This isn't between you and your friend -- this is a business issue, money has traded hands, you cannot treat it like it's a personal argument. You are not in a financial position to counter even small legal threats, but she's in a position to issue them.
 
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Ravioli

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Oh, heck, Ravioli. I know you're upset, but if you're going to behave like this it won't be wise to continue pursuing art as a business.

You just made a business agreement void and cheated yourself out of money you were owed, in public and written form.

You just tore into a client publicly, revealing details about a business agreement, which means that client could now pursue you for reputation damage.

You may have breached confidentially, if your pay agreement was supposed to be confidential.

Please check your local laws and consider deleting the posts, but be aware that Facebook drama lovers have likely already taken screenshots.

This behavior will only escalate the situation. No matter how desperate your financial situation gets, you can't risk legal action like this. This isn't between you and your friend -- this is a business issue, money has traded hands, you cannot treat it like it's a personal argument. You are not in a financial position to counter even small legal threats, but she's in a position to issue them.
You're right in every point and I can't say I don't feel bad about it, except we've mutually blocked each other so I can't remove anything anymore. She's probably removed it herself. It was basically the lengthy version of "Planning your next iPhone and treating people to fine dining, while I'm stripping and my dogs' ribs are showing. I'm done waiting for that measly pay you promised, so keep the money, keep the images, just know that not even hiding your luxury escapades from struggling "friends" whom you owe money for helping you MAKE money, is beyond distasteful, bye" on a post on her personal profile, not her business. I'm not out to hurt her business, I just needed her to know I'm done and why, and that's worth forfeiting the money I didn't expect to get anymore anyway. I delivered in full, got less than half. When she started stalling me with all kinds of fibs - I was supposed to get that money LONG ago - I guessed I was never gonna see any more. We never had any official agreement, not on confidentiality or otherwise, just when I was supposed to deliver and when she was supposed to pay and how much.

I know it was unprofessional and I regret it. But no going back now, but when I saw that iPhone post, I lost it. It's like, I'm stripping on webcam and collecting peoples' disgusting beer bottles for small change so I can buy myself new socks, while she's buying iPhones and withholding 2 digit payment for hard, honest work. I rarely ever work for money anyway as I hate expectations and pressure - working on a cover right now for a very happy client! - I just thought hey, I need her money, and she needs a shot at a good thing, we can make this happen for each other. I just got so angry every time she posted about another luxurious waste of money and promoting her business, while I had to carefully remind her of the small change she owed me and gave me fib after fib for not paying, even tried to convince me we had agreed on just above half the total price when scrolling back through the messages proves otherwise. I was close to snapping for a long time because, even if I said no such thing in my message to her, hers weren't honest mistakes, they seemed calculated.
I made mistakes. My reaction today was one, and not setting clear terms about up-front payment and higher rates, were more mistakes I made all by myself. But I'm not the one callously toying with a financially struggling person whom I called my friend and who I know is so desperate for cash I can dangle a carrot in front of her forever and she'll keep running for it. I stopped running. This conclusion was unprofessional and not to be repeated, but I was so fed up and raging when I saw that post, during a time where my dog's special needs have her at the vet's twice a month for new costly baths, pills, skin scrapings, and all kinds of costly abuse, and she knows, and she's in my face with new iPhones bought with the money she owes me and which I need to LIVE!? Professionalism aside indeed, ethically, she needed to hear this. Because while this was business, we were also friends who have both been through a lot and she knows of my financial struggles. So that disrespect wasn't just professional, it was personal. It's damned personal when you know your friend has mouths to feed and nothing to buy that food with and has confided in you about going back to whoring, while you're complaining about your new iPhone lacking in accessories, and making up excuses why you can't pay $50 while making thousands. I have been patient, I have been a doormat, and I have been a dairy cow, and today I was an unprofessional jerk, but I was an unprofessional jerk who made it known that I'm aware of and done with this abuse.
 

MaeZe

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Well this took a nasty turn after looking so positive.

You got some good advice on how to move forward then let resentment in to ruin it all. Ignoring all that drama and echoing some of the good advice in the thread, I'll add this:

I'm a private contractor. I do work for my friends all the time. What I see in the OP is a failure to communicate on both sides. She doesn't have a clear idea what to pay and you don't have a clear idea what to charge.

Moving forward, you need a price sheet: either an hourly rate with an estimate on how much time a job takes, or a straight fee for service.

From there you can give a friend a discount (I do). You could also consider some of your early work pays less but helps build your resume. I do that too. For example I might spend an hour with a new client discussing how I can help them. I chalk that up to marketing and don't send a bill. The next time I meet with them it is consulting, and they get a bill.

I also provide services (tying up loose ends) that are not profitable because I make a good profit from the same client for the bulk of services I provide.

My clients don't suggest prices, that comes from my end. I never ask them what they think something is worth.

You sound resentful that her Etsy business might be profitable (even though it might be a bust, who knows). That is not something tied to your fees for your work. Maybe it's the norm to do so in graphics work, but it sounds like something for an established business rather than a new one. A high end client is worth a lot in advertising and referrals for your business. Not all profits are monetary.

Until your last couple posts I would have said, you can interrupt this cycle and still keep your friend. Develop a price sheet. Sit down with her and get her to firm up what she wants based on your price sheet. Offer her a discount until her business is off the ground.

Now, it doesn't look so good. Oh well. Get that price sheet together, you're still going to need it.
 
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mccardey

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MaeZe gives great advice. You sound like a bright woman who is more than capable of managing a functional business if you keep your emotions in check. You say
I rarely ever work for money anyway as I hate expectations and pressure -
but the expectations and pressure will be very much easier to handle than this sort of thing - believe me. Plus you'll get yourself financially more secure - and that will be wonderful for your dogs and yourself.

Big breath. Print MaeZe's post out. Give yourself time to regroup and restructure yourself and start over with some new (paying) clients.

Good luck!
 

Filigree

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This! Just doing the research and maths on your price sheet should help refocus you to what you can charge, can't, and shouldn't take on in the first place. I've worked with multimillionaires before; if I let resentment color my dealings with them I'd never take another commission from anyone. The problem here is too much closeness on FB and other social media. You shouldn't *care* what she does with her time and money. Bottom line, she stiffed you, move on from there.
 

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Professionalism aside indeed, ethically, she needed to hear this. Because while this was business, we were also friends who have both been through a lot and she knows of my financial struggles. So that disrespect wasn't just professional, it was personal. It's damned personal when you know your friend has mouths to feed and nothing to buy that food with and has confided in you about going back to whoring, while you're complaining about your new iPhone lacking in accessories, and making up excuses why you can't pay $50 while making thousands. I have been patient, I have been a doormat, and I have been a dairy cow, and today I was an unprofessional jerk, but I was an unprofessional jerk who made it known that I'm aware of and done with this abuse.

You told her she didn't need to pay you after all. That was exactly what she wanted. Chances are you were chosen precisely because she knew you were having a difficult time. I'm not as charitable as other posters in thinking people doing these things are making honest mistakes. Most of the times I've see it, it's been on purpose, it's been skilled, and it will happen again.

My point here isn't to blame you, as it's hard to see coming. It's more that being aware of it makes it easier to direct your reactions. What reaction will benefit her? What reaction will benefit you? Waiving the fee benefited her, as did your explosion. She can use that to paint a picture of you being the problem. Even now, you're feeling bad and don't want to make it public as it might harm her business. Both of those things are to her benefit, not to yours.

It's time to switch around the thinking. Forget about what's good for her. What's going to help you right now? Sorting things like price lists is a good idea. Given what you've said, looking at POD art sites might also help you. It's less money per item, but once it's set up you can let the company handle most customer issues. This can run in the background earning some money while you handle bigger commissions.
 

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Your friend sounds exploitative, but given the nature of the work, I think it's your responsibility to make sure you're paid fairly. I used to photograph weddings, and here are a few things I learnt.

1. People won't value your time until YOU value your time. I used to offer free engagement shots as part of the wedding package, and people would come late, or come with unwashed hair and stained clothes. When I started charging money for it, the couples started to treat it more seriously. I started at £50/hr and kept increasing my price as I gained more experience and invested more into the business. A year later, I was charging £250 for the first hour and £200/hr for the next few hours, and the change in my customers' behavior was incredible. They turned up early and took it seriously. Their clothes were neat, they'd bring props, they'd have a good idea of what kind of look they were going for. A few of them even rented wedding dresses and tuxes. And I got more enquiries than when I was charging peanuts. I'm not saying you need to charge top dollar immediately. The quality of your work needs to reflect the amount of money you charge, but never, ever devalue yourself by doing shit for free. If things are given away for free, people think they're worth nothing.

2. The payment scheme: Very simple. You can break it down however you want, but the bottomline is: Until you are paid in full, no goods are delivered. Here was how I broke mine down: 25% down payment for them to book the date, 50% 1 month prior to wedding, and then after the wedding, I send them a few pictures WITH WATERMARKS and remind them to pay the remaining sum. I don't send the pictures until I get the remaining 25%.

3. How wealthy your customers are or how they spend their money is their business, not yours. When I started charging a lot more for my wedding packages, I started getting wealthy customers -- bankers, lawyers and so on. Their Facebook pages were filled with pictures of yachts and spas and luxury hotels. And some of them would still be late with payment. This is where we go back to the rule of: No payment, no goods. No need for any frustration on your part.

4. Always, ALWAYS remain polite. I have met my share of groom-and-bridezillas. There was even a bride who got drunk and took a lunge at me. I remained civil in all of my interactions with them. This doesn't mean you are a doormat. You can chase them for payment and refuse your services, but always do it in a professional way.

ETA: 5. Don't give discounts. When friends ask for your services, throw in extra stuff for them, but don't give them discounts. I used to give discounts until I realized people didn't appreciate it as much as FREE STUFF. Plus, it cost me a lot more to give a small discount than it does to throw in more stuff. For example for a wedding package that costs £2,000, I could offer a 10% discount, which really doesn't sound impressive given how much they're shelling out already, or I could throw in an extra album, which would cost me £45 to make (but that I sell for £200) and ends up being something the couple will remember for a long time. Or if they've ordered a small album, I might offer to upgrade it to a larger size for free, which might cost me £30 extra. It's the kind of thing people rave to their friends about. Include a hand-written note telling them how happy you are that they came to you and everybody leaves feeling happy and appreciated. So think about what little perks you can throw in for special customers, and offer them at your discretion.

Take this as a lesson learnt and move on. Get better with your skills, not just on the artistic side, but on the business side as well.
 
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Noir/Blanc

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Your friend sounds exploitative, but given the nature of the work, I think it's your responsibility to make sure you're paid fairly. I used to photograph weddings, and here are a few things I learnt.

1. People won't value your time until YOU value your time. I used to offer free engagement shots as part of the wedding package, and people would come late, or come with unwashed hair and stained clothes. When I started charging money for it, the couples started to treat it more seriously. I started at £50/hr and kept increasing my price as I gained more experience and invested more into the business. A year later, I was charging £250 for the first hour and £200/hr for the next few hours, and the change in my customers' behavior was incredible. They turned up early and took it seriously. Their clothes were neat, they'd bring props, they'd have a good idea of what kind of look they were going for. A few of them even rented wedding dresses and tuxes. And I got more enquiries than when I was charging peanuts. I'm not saying you need to charge top dollar immediately. The quality of your work needs to reflect the amount of money you charge, but never, ever devalue yourself by doing shit for free. If things are given away for free, people think they're worth nothing.

2. The payment scheme: Very simple. You can break it down however you want, but the bottomline is: Until you are paid in full, no goods are delivered. Here was how I broke mine down: 25% down payment for them to book the date, 50% 1 month prior to wedding, and then after the wedding, I send them a few pictures WITH WATERMARKS and remind them to pay the remaining sum. I don't send the pictures until I get the remaining 25%.

3. How wealthy your customers are or how they spend their money is their business, not yours. When I started charging a lot more for my wedding packages, I started getting wealthy customers -- bankers, lawyers and so on. Their Facebook pages were filled with pictures of yachts and spas and luxury hotels. And some of them would still be late with payment. This is where we go back to the rule of: No payment, no goods. No need for any frustration on your part.

4. Always, ALWAYS remain polite. I have met my share of groom-and-bridezillas. There was even a bride who got drunk and took a lunge at me. I remained civil in all of my interactions with them. This doesn't mean you are a doormat. You can chase them for payment and refuse your services, but always do it in a professional way.

ETA: 5. Don't give discounts. When friends ask for your services, throw in extra stuff for them, but don't give them discounts. I used to give discounts until I realized people didn't appreciate it as much as FREE STUFF. Plus, it cost me a lot more to give a small discount than it does to throw in more stuff. For example for a wedding package that costs £2,000, I could offer a 10% discount, which really doesn't sound impressive given how much they're shelling out already, or I could throw in an extra album, which would cost me £45 to make (but that I sell for £200) and ends up being something the couple will remember for a long time. Or if they've ordered a small album, I might offer to upgrade it to a larger size for free, which might cost me £30 extra. It's the kind of thing people rave to their friends about. Include a hand-written note telling them how happy you are that they came to you and everybody leaves feeling happy and appreciated. So think about what little perks you can throw in for special customers, and offer them at your discretion.

Take this as a lesson learnt and move on. Get better with your skills, not just on the artistic side, but on the business side as well.

This is really good advice that helped me with an issue of my own. Thanks!
 
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