A Question About The Messiah

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regdog

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I've written a middle grade novel about a Jewish family during WW2. In some parts of the story the Rabbi and the father of the family say they are wondering why the Messiah is letting what is happening to them happen.

I am wondering if I am correct in using Messiah, or should it be God?

Thank you
 

71writer

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It would probably be more correct to use God. Since God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and Messiah is the Son, then God is actually the One who allows things to happen.
 

jst5150

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It would be correct to say G-d. Jews are still waiting for the messiah to come. There are several conditions for this to happen. All that said, I highly recommend www.jewfaq.org to research the topic.

I also recommend any of Elie Wiesel's books for context as to why.
 

Sarita

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I also recommend any of Elie Wiesel's books for context as to why.
Night is one of the most compelling texts I've ever read. If you want context and real thought on Jewish suffering during WWII... please pick up Wiesel's book.
 

Prawn

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We could start a thread called "A Question FOR the Messiah" and see what kind of answers we get there.
 

citymouse

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When we as humans suffer sorrow it is in our nature to look for the cause if not actual blame. One is never on good ground in blaming God for evil happenings.
And so I would use neither "God" or "Messiah" as being responsible for letting suffering to happen.
If one follows the Jewish mind the the conquerer of evil [the Messiah] has yet to come. So what do the scriptures say in regards to who's running the store until then? If you guessed Lucifer then go to the head of the class. permit me to quote a few lines.
...You [Lucifer] were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you... (Ezekiel 28:12-15).

And again, ...Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones... (Ezekiel 26:16).

Once more, ...How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth...(Isaiah 14:12).

Earth! Here is the realm of the Dark Prince.

I'm a Christian and some may wonder why I'm in this forum. Well I lurk here because frankly I learn stuff and I thought I'd offer a not often taken look at this topic. Many, if not most, of my Christian brothers and sister may take issue with my reading of the quoted text but that's the beauty of God. We all see him through the prism of our "fearfully and wonderfully" created hearts.
I realize too that one cannot compress evil, its origins and its impact on us within a few lines of text. But I believe it's a start. We believe in God and so when we are afflicted we turn to God and accuse and question--Why! Satan's greatest strength lies in that few in our modern age (WW2 era as well) continue to believe in his existence and so when we are faced with evil we do dot readily turn to its true author.

If I have given offense to any person by posting here please forgive me.
C




I've written a middle grade novel about a Jewish family during WW2. In some parts of the story the Rabbi and the father of the family say they are wondering why the Messiah is letting what is happening to them happen.

I am wondering if I am correct in using Messiah, or should it be God?

Thank you
 

Smiling Ted

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When we as humans suffer sorrow it is in our nature to look for the cause if not actual blame. One is never on good ground in blaming God for evil happenings.
And so I would use neither "God" or "Messiah" as being responsible for letting suffering to happen.

Whom you would blame, and whom a character would blame, are two different things.


If one follows the Jewish mind the the conquerer of evil [the Messiah] has yet to come. So what do the scriptures say in regards to who's running the store until then? If you guessed Lucifer then go to the head of the class. permit me to quote a few lines.
...You [Lucifer] were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you... (Ezekiel 28:12-15).

That's incorrect.

The original text does not mention "Lucifer" - you inserted that. The verse as written is a prophecy against the King of Tyre. It says so right there on the page:

"בֶּן-אָדָם, שָׂא קִינָה עַל-מֶלֶךְ צוֹר"
"Son of Adam, make this lamentation against the King of Tyre."
Ezekiel 28:12.

Once more, ...How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth...(Isaiah 14:12).

Earth! Here is the realm of the Dark Prince.

To anyone who reads the thirteen verses that come before that one, and not just that one verse, it is clear that this is not a reference to the Devil, but to the prophesied destruction of the King of Babylon. Start with Verse 4, and just keep going:

וְנָשָׂאתָ הַמָּשָׁל הַזֶּה, עַל-מֶלֶךְ בָּבֶל--וְאָמָרְתָּ: אֵיךְ שָׁבַת נֹגֵשׂ, שָׁבְתָה מַדְהֵבָה

"And you shall take up this parable against the King of Babylon, and say: How has the oppressor ended! The gold taker, ended!" (Isaiah 14:4)

Everything that follows, through to Verse 23, is a prediction of the ruin of the King of Babylon, who is on top of the world, and then cast down. This is clear to anyone with an accurate translation and an understanding of metaphor. (For a direct Hebrew to English translation, go HERE.)
 
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JulieHowe

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I have a related question. I'm writing a novel, and the MCs are religious Jews, although I would expect the majority of readers wouldn't be familiar with the nuances of religious Judaism. Would you consider the use of the word G-d (spelled that way in the text) to be appropriate and respectful, or would it merely confuse and possibly turn off a reader who wasn't familiar with religious Jewish customs?
 

Prawn

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Assuming that you, yourself are not orthodox, I would only use it if the character is writing. In a letter they might write G-d, but in dialogue, it would be God.
 

Shamrockgreen

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A Jewish Chat Thread

I have this thread bookmarked and read through the whole thing, it might help you understand a bit more about jewish thoughts and traditions. I learned so much reading it and it prompted me to do some study on my own.

This is found in the religion section of the sean hannity forum, it is the non political section. :)

http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=1267771
 

semilargeintestine

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I was modern orthodox until not too long ago, and I used "God" in my writing. There is no restriction in the Torah against writing or speaking even the so-called "ineffable name"; rather, it was a tradition started later to prevent Jews from carelessly violating the commandment against using God's name in a worthless manner when taking an oath; the restriction against writing the name only applies to defacing it, not simply writing it down--we do not write it unless copying texts because of the risk of defacing it. In fact, most observant Jews will not say any of His names--other than Hashem, which is an informal name used when not praying--when not praying. For example, Elohim is usually said as Elokim in everyday use, or even when discussing religion. My Rabbi and the majority of people I associated with on a regular basis wrote God with no problem whatsoever. Note: I have noticed the "G-d" cropping up in modern texts, but none of the synagogues I attended or the Rabbis I had ever had a problem using "God."

As far as the post about Lucifer, this is a Jewish forum. Please do not come in here and preach your own religion to people asking what Jews believe, especially if you are going to misinterpret and alter the texts. Thank you.

Just as a side note, don't have them use the name Jehovah. It is a mispronunciation of God's true name that resulted from others reading the Hebrew and confusing the vowels placed under the name to remind Jews not to read aloud the name of God as the correct way to pronounce it.

ETA: Note that because God is an English word, it is not the same as pronouncing His name in Hebrew. That is why there is no problem saying it in Judaism.
 
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mayamolly

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When your characters are talking, you might want them to use "Hashem" as a word for G-d-- it means "the Name" and is the way most Orthodox Jews I know (especially the more Hassidic ones) refer to G-d. DEFINITELY don't use any form of... er... Yah--- (I hope you know what I'm talking about) in your characters' conversations. We NEVER try to say this name of G-d out loud! It annoys the heck out of me when writers have Jewish characters refer to G-d by this name.

The other responses are also correct in that your characters would pray to G-d rather than the Messiah (or Moshiach, as we say in Hebrew). However, they would probably ask why the Moshiach hasn't arrived yet. We do NOT believe that the Moshiach is G-d's son, at least not in the literal way that Christians do, so be sure not to include this.

Good luck! It's tricky to write from inside a different belief system!

Btw, I obviously typically leave out the "o" when I write G-d, but in my WIP I'm going to leave it in. I've had people think I'm engaging in some kind of weird censorship otherwise! For a more impermanent setting like this forum, though, I prefer to leave it out. It's not a huge deal either way, though, as others have said.

P.S. I suggest you browse www.aish.com for more info on traditional Jewish thought.
 

mayamolly

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oh, one more note-- we wouldn't ask why the Messiah IS letting this happen because we don't know who the Messiah (a completely human leader) is yet. So the question would be why the Messiah hasn't arrived yet to end this suffering.
 

semilargeintestine

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Just saw this part of the post. This is NOT the Jewish view on things. It is probably a good idea for someone who is not Jewish to refrain from saying what our beliefs are, just as I would never say what Christian beliefs are.

When we as humans suffer sorrow it is in our nature to look for the cause if not actual blame. One is never on good ground in blaming God for evil happenings.
And so I would use neither "God" or "Messiah" as being responsible for letting suffering to happen.
If one follows the Jewish mind the the conquerer of evil [the Messiah] has yet to come. So what do the scriptures say in regards to who's running the store until then? If you guessed Lucifer then go to the head of the class. permit me to quote a few lines.
...You [Lucifer] were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you... (Ezekiel 28:12-15).

And again, ...Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones... (Ezekiel 26:16).

Once more, ...How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth...(Isaiah 14:12).

Earth! Here is the realm of the Dark Prince.

G-d IS ultimately responsible for suffering and evil, because He allows suffering to happen, and He created evil. Why He allows bad things to happen is not always perfectly obvious, but it is not a Jewish belief to say that evil is the absence of G-d.

In addition, the concept that Satan is a separate entity who struggles against G-d is a polytheistic belief, and Judaism is monotheistic (in fact, the first monotheistic religion). Satan is NOT a fallen angel or anything of the sort. Rather, he is an agent of G-d who fulfills a very specific mission on earth. It is important to notice however, that he answers directly to G-d and requires G-d's permission to do anything. He is only explicitly mentioned in two places in the Bible (Job and [SIZE=-1]Zechariah[/SIZE]), but show exactly what his place is in relation to G-d.

In Job, Satan comes to present himself before G-d. G-d demands of him, "From where do you come?" The Satan (notice that it is THE Satan, as satan is a noun, not a name, that means "Accusor") answers him immediately, saying that he has being going to and fro on the earth. G-d then proceeds to convene the Heavenly Court where Job is the defendent. The Satan is the prosecuting attorney, hence his name: "the accusor." It is this position that the Satan holds--a prosecutor in the Heavenly Court, trying to convince G-d that the person at issue is not worthy of G-d's kindness. The Satan is just an angel of G-d doing a job (no pun intended). Angels have no free will and are incapable of fathoming the concept of going against G-d's word.

And so no, "Lucifer" does not run the store. In fact, he is not even an assistant manager. The only person running the store, and the person who will EVER run the store, is G-d. As He told the great prophet Isaiah, "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that does all these things."

We are not waiting for a "Messiah" to come and conquer the "devil." We are waiting for the Moshiach, who will be King of the Jewish people and restore the Kingdom of Israel and rebuild the Temple. However, G-d will still run the store. We will simply have a new assistant manager.

I'm a Christian and some may wonder why I'm in this forum. Well I lurk here because frankly I learn stuff and I thought I'd offer a not often taken look at this topic. Many, if not most, of my Christian brothers and sister may take issue with my reading of the quoted text but that's the beauty of God. We all see him through the prism of our "fearfully and wonderfully" created hearts.
I realize too that one cannot compress evil, its origins and its impact on us within a few lines of text. But I believe it's a start. We believe in God and so when we are afflicted we turn to God and accuse and question--Why! Satan's greatest strength lies in that few in our modern age (WW2 era as well) continue to believe in his existence and so when we are faced with evil we do dot readily turn to its true author.

If I have given offense to any person by posting here please forgive me.
C

You haven't cause any offence. I would just suggest that you not post your opinion of Jewish beliefs as fact when they are actually quite the opposite.
 

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