If you aren't sure whether to self-publish, ask yourself what you want.

[Deleted member 42]

None of this changes the fact that consumers expect an eBook to cost less than a paper book. You can try to "educate" the consumer, but many a company has gone out of business going down that path.

There's a reason publishers do a P & L.

Also, it's weird that Amazon is a "bully" for offering huge discounts on paper books when every single brick and mortar bookstore has been doing this for eternity.

No, Amazon is a bully for telling publishers how to price their ebooks if they want Amazon to carry them. See the Amazon-Macmillan kerfluffle

Granted, Amazon is a retailer and can carry or not carry anyone they like. And can set prices. But publishers have every right to set prices on their goods, too. It was an odd episode.

 

[Deleted member 42]

I'm with you here. Ask any random person, "How much should an ebook cost." They'll probably say five bucks. Better yet, ask them "Should an ebook cost less than a paper book?" And they will almost certainly say yes. You can't change the public perception so you have to adapt to it.

Like Mercedes, BMW and Apple have done?

No.

There's a point where a merchant will adjust price and cost with respect to sales; it's in the nature of profit and loss.

But there's also a point that's a sweet spot; the item sells enough at a price that allows the merchant to realize a profit.

 

[zegota]

Like Mercedes, BMW and Apple have done?

Heh, if the publishing industry ever turns into Apple, I'm opting out.

And I remember the great ebook war, and I remember thinking both parties were being shortsighted and stupid.

 

[Deleted member 42]

I realize this is anecdotal but I certainly would have bought both of those books if they were five bucks each but 11.99 just felt like too high. I'm as skeptical about self pubbed books as anyone. I'm not snapping them up left and right, but I'm open to trying more, especially when they are a tenth of the price.

I think Baen is still a company to watch. They've been in the vanguard for a while now.

They sell an "E-arc" that is essentially a digital equivalent to a galley for (usually) $15.00. This is for those readers who have to have the new book asap.

Individual ebook prices for the final version range from free to around $6.00, depending on the book.

A paperback mass market of say Bujold's Diplomatic Immunity is 7.99, the hardcover is 26.00 and the ebook is 5.00.

The original hardcover came out in May of 2002; the paperback in June of 2002. The ebook in 2001--and was, I think (on this I'm going from memory--$7.00).

And they bundle CD-ROMs of free books with many hardcovers.

 

[Deleted member 42]

And I remember the great ebook war, and I remember thinking both parties were being shortsighted and stupid.

Yep. Pretty much.

 

[James D. Macdonald]

Also, it's weird that Amazon is a "bully" for offering huge discounts on paper books when every single brick and mortar bookstore has been doing this for eternity. I can't remember the last time I walked into a Barnes and Noble and saw the latest big name bestselling hardback being offered for anything over 50% of the cover price.

Bookstores (including Amazon) get paper books at a discount (usually 40-60% off). They can charge full cover price. Or they can discount the book 50% and still make a profit. Amazon does it, B&N does it, your local specialty shop does it. Regardless of what they sell the book for -- or give it away -- they still owe the publisher the same, discounted, amount for every one that leaves the store. No one has a problem with that.

The problem comes when Amazon says, "and the cover price of your e-books must be $X.XX." "Wrong-o," say the publishers. "We set the prices, not you."

Amazon has pulled that crud before, including barely-legal-to-illegal-to-ethically-challenged stunts. Don't think that because they're hauling the self-published gravy train at the moment that they won't pull a stunt on you.

 

[ResearchGuy]

. . . I certainly would have bought both of those books if they were five bucks each but 11.99 just felt like too high. . . .

I've been happy to pay $15 for new, major-publisher nonfiction on my Kindle. Even twelve or thirteen for just-published-in-hardback novels by favorite writers is ok. I'd have paid more for the hardback AND have been stuck with the thing taking up space in my home. Not too crazy about $7.99 for Kindle download of a new mass market paperback priced the same, but I'll pay that for favorites. Would it kill them to discount those a bit?

Pricing is complicated by publishers' need to not cannibalize hardback first editions. They'll discount the ebook price from the hardback price, and LATER, when paperback comes out, from the paperback price. But not immediately. (And maybe not undercut mass market paperback price at all.)

--Ken

 

[ResearchGuy]

. . .huge discounts on paper books when every single brick and mortar bookstore has been doing this for eternity.. . . .

Not necessarily the independents, which cannot afford such discounts.

--Ken

 

[scope]

Okay, I'm imagining it. And I'm imagining myself buying a lot more books for my Kindle. Maybe I'm the only person who'd buy more books at that price and use my public library less, but I doubt it.

Call me stupid, but I don't get it. Given any product it makes sense that some people can only afford certain price points, but that doesn't seem to be what's being discussed. Are you saying that trade houses are okay at $10.00 because you want to pay less and from other sources will get a greater number of books, regardless of quality?

 

[AP7]

Pricing is complicated by publishers' need to not cannibalize hardback first editions. They'll discount the ebook price from the hardback price, and LATER, when paperback comes out, from the paperback price. But not immediately. (And maybe not undercut mass market paperback price at all.)

--Ken

The McCarthy book was 10 years old and the Vonnegut book 40. They are both priced at $11.99. Say what you will about price points, sweet spots, anecdotal evidence, but I can say for a fact that those were two sales lost because the publisher set the price too high.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00133811I/?tag=absowrit-20

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003XT60E0/?tag=absowrit-20

 

[AP7]

Call me stupid, but I don't get it. Given any product it makes sense that some people can only afford certain price points, but that doesn't seem to be what's being discussed. Are you saying that trade houses are okay at $10.00 because you want to pay less and from other sources will get a greater number of books, regardless of quality?

I'm saying that the big guys are pricing their ebooks too high and I'm willing to buy self published books (something I've never even considered before buying a kindle) because they are significantly cheaper.

 

[ResearchGuy]

I'm saying that the big guys are pricing their ebooks too high and I'm willing to buy self published books (something I've never even considered before buying a kindle) because they are significantly cheaper.

Curiously, I am willing to buy major-publisher ebooks at higher prices (than the cheap self-published books) because they are, reliably, significantly better.

--Ken

 

[ResearchGuy]

. . . the publisher set the price too high.. . .

Or they know what they are worth and won't cheapen the brand.

--Ken

 

[AP7]

Or they know what they are worth and won't cheapen the brand.

--Ken

Somehow, I'll bet they'd rather the two sales in the bank than keeping up the prestige of their brand.

 

[AP7]

Curiously, I am willing to buy major-publisher ebooks at higher prices (than the cheap self-published books) because they are, reliably, significantly better.

--Ken

That's fine, but your buying habits arent the debate here. The point I've raised is that there is a market for cheap ebooks, and it's being strengthened by the big guys prices being significantly higher.

 

[scope]

I'm saying that the big guys are pricing their ebooks too high and I'm willing to buy self published books (something I've never even considered before buying a kindle) because they are significantly cheaper.

So whether or not you can afford it, a price which you set, for no other reason than the dollar amount, determines if you will or will not buy it? Does it follow (for you) that you would rather spend $6.00 from a self-publshed, so-so ebook, versus $10.00 for an excellent ebook from a trade house?

 

[Deleted member 42]

The McCarthy book was 10 years old and the Vonnegut book 40. They are both priced at $11.99. Say what you will about price points, sweet spots, anecdotal evidence, but I can say for a fact that those were two sales lost because the publisher set the price too high.

I understand your dismay, and I think you shouldn't buy books you feel are inappropriately priced.

That said, the copyright for the original editions may be ten and forty years old; the ebooks are new.

In the case of the Vonnegut, having looked at the sample, it looks to me like it was OCRd, probably from the mass market trade paperback edition.

It has lots of errors. I wouldn't be happy paying for it either.

But I note that the publisher in producing a paperback or ebook of an earlier edition has new costs.

Especially if, as is so very often the case, they do not have digital files to work from.

Obviously, that's a cost of doing business for publishers, but it is one of the things slowing down converting back lists--and I think one reason so many publishers aren't attempting to license digital rights for all the back list books, and are allowing them to revert to authors.

So we're seeing increasing numbers of earlier mass market books being sold in ebook editions by their authors. I know of two author cooperatives doing this together; I'm curious about if that will be one of the lasting self-publishing paradigms for ebooks.

 

[Deleted member 42]

That's fine, but your buying habits arent the debate here. The point I've raised is that there is a market for cheap ebooks, and it's being strengthened by the big guys prices being significantly higher.

For you, and presumably for others.

I'm willing to pay for quality. I'm honestly not seeing much in self-published books lately that I'd want to buy.

I'm not even seeing books that I'd want to review in terms of fiction. I'm not going to review fiction if I can't recommend to at least some readers.

 

[scope]

That's fine, but your buying habits arent the debate here. The point I've raised is that there is a market for cheap ebooks, and it's being strengthened by the big guys prices being significantly higher.

As with any business, the market will ultimately dictate the price. Of course there will always be a market for cheap anything, but primarily because that's all that particular buying public can afford, not because it's necessarily what they want or prefer. When it comes to books, let me ask you, as a writer, a simple question. Let's say that as a writer you have two options:

1. You can self-publish an ebook, retail it for $4.99, and realize a yearly profit of $500.

2. You can sell the rights to the same book to a trade publisher who will put it out as an ebook and you will realize a yearly profit of $5,000.

Which do you take?
Forget about there being a market for cheap books. You are a writer, you want to be published, you want to earn as much money as possible, and you would like as wide a distribution channel as possible -- at least I assume that's some of what you would want.

 

[AP7]

As with any business, the market will ultimately dictate the price. Of course there will always be a market for cheap anything, but primarily because that's all that particular buying public can afford, not because it's necessarily what they want or prefer. When it comes to books, let me ask you, as a writer, a simple question. Let's say that as a writer you have two options:

1. You can self-publish an ebook, retail it for $4.99, and realize a yearly profit of $500.

2. You can sell the rights to the same book to a trade publisher who will put it out as an ebook and you will realize a yearly profit of $5,000.

Which do you take?
Forget about there being a market for cheap books. You are a writer, you want to be published, you want to earn as much money as possible, and you would like as wide a distribution channel as possible -- at least I assume that's some of what you would want.

How exactly am I supposed to respond without getting scolded by the mods? You call yourself a common sense maverick and then ask two of the silliest questions. No, I would not rather pay $6 for an average book over $10 for a great book. Of course, how would I know before reading them? I would pay a buck for a book that I was only going to read once on an airplane though, as I did with the John Locke book which as I said earlier, measured up reasonably in quality to the mass market competition. Certainly, it was more than 1 tenth as good, if we're measuring dollars to donuts. (or 1/12th as good, as the latest Charlie Huston would've cost me $11.99)

As to your second question, all things being equal, I'll take whatever makes me more money. Is that a trick question?

 

[ResearchGuy]

That's fine, but your buying habits arent the debate here. . . ..

But yours are? I quote: "I'm willing to buy self published books (something I've never even considered before buying a kindle) because they are significantly cheaper."

--Ken

P.S. In fairness, I've bought a ton of cheap e-books, by the likes of Charles Dickens, Mark Twain, Henry James . . .

 

[AP7]

But yours are? I quote: "I'm willing to buy self published books (something I've never even considered before buying a kindle) because they are significantly cheaper."

--Ken

P.S. In fairness, I've bought a ton of cheap e-books, by the likes of Charles Dickens, Mark Twain, Henry James . . .

My buying habits are relevant to the discussion, at least anecdotally. I gave a real life example that applied. You came back by turning your nose up to self published books, which is perfectly lovely, but irrelevant to whether there is or isnt a market for cheap ebooks.

 

[ResearchGuy]

. . . You came back by turning your nose up to self published books. . . .

Context would help. I am a longstanding board member of a regional organization of (primarily) self-publishers/micropublishers. For that matter, I AM a self-publisher (on a very small scale, learning along the way the last few years). I support self-publishing done right for the right reasons. But the fact is that a lot of bad to very bad books are published by their authors, and with barriers to entry dropping nearly to zero via ebooks, that situation can only be aggravated. I can be pretty sure that a book of a type I like to read, from a major trade publisher, will be worth reading. I cannot be similarly sure of a typical book from a self-publisher (or subsidy or vanity press). I've seen too many bad self-published books, despite seeing some good to superb self-published books.

Anyway, sure, there is a market for cheap anything. Liquor, facial tissue, used cars, canned beans, you name it. Books too. Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice. And to borrow another phrase, you get what you pay for.

--Ken

 

[scope]

How exactly am I supposed to respond without getting scolded by the mods? You call yourself a common sense maverick and then ask two of the silliest questions. No, I would not rather pay $6 for an average book over $10 for a great book. Of course, how would I know before reading them? I would pay a buck for a book that I was only going to read once on an airplane though, as I did with the John Locke book which as I said earlier, measured up reasonably in quality to the mass market competition. Certainly, it was more than 1 tenth as good, if we're measuring dollars to donuts. (or 1/12th as good, as the latest Charlie Huston would've cost me $11.99)

As to your second question, all things being equal, I'll take whatever makes me more money. Is that a trick question?

First of all, I don't call myself a common sense maveick or anything else. That phrase was given to me by AW.

Your words: "The point I've raised is that there is a market for cheap ebooks, and it's being strengthened by the big guys prices being higher."

Although it makes no sense to me, how can anyone read into that anything other than you prefer quantity over quality and presume the same of most readers?

Now you imply (I think) that cheap ebooks will only sell well under certain circumstanes, like a short flight. Well what if it's a 10 hour flight? Would you buy a cheap ebook or another at a higher price which you believe would be an excellent read? And please, lets stop using the same 5 or 6 self-published authors who have had success.

I could undestand your "cheap ebooks" stance if as an writer you saw a large, needy audience for whom you intened to write quality books (quality equal to the best at half the price). But just to assume that people will gravitate to cheap ebooks regardless of quality I don't buy.

And now you ask how would you know before reading them. Excellent question, but I beleve you should have addressed it a long time ago.

 

[Deleted member 42]

My buying habits are relevant to the discussion, at least anecdotally. I gave a real life example that applied. You came back by turning your nose up to self published books, which is perfectly lovely, but irrelevant to whether there is or isnt a market for cheap ebooks.

Dude, chill.

Seriously. You might want to just slow down a little, maybe read the Newbie's Guide.

And check out people's sigs; Ken -- ResearchGuy -- has a really informative pamphlet about how to self publish linked in his sig.