- Joined
- Sep 25, 2009
- Messages
- 4,470
- Reaction score
- 658
^Yeah, I think I'm confusing it with something else. *goes to lurk the "Learning to Plot" thread*
So, you're saying add a subplot? I know that's just one suggestion, and maybe this is me reacting to seeing lots of unnecessary subplots that made no sense, but when I hear "subplot" my instinct is to recoil slightly...
Yeah I was directing that at Linda, hence the quote. Honestly I have no clue how to respond to "add more plot," except to just blink at the screen.
Oh, I assure you that agents and publishers have problems with novels in the 75-80K range. They've told me so.Out of curiosity, how can a novel be too short? We described at length in this thread how is can be too long and what the problems are with that, but what is meant by "too short?" I mean unless it's the length of a short story (in which case you might want to consider it one) or the story lacks a meaningful arc, I can't see how a publisher could have a problem with it.
That's the basic difference in people who write short and those who write long, I think. I hate all that stuff when I read and invariably skip it. Then I take Leonard Elmore's advice to "leave out the stuff that people skip" a bit too far. If there is a detail that you don't need to understand the story--chances are 99 to 1, I'll leave it out.Then I'd add that little back story about that supporting character everyone thought was just a face.
I just discovered I'm too fond of side stories and back stories. In fact there are chapters in my book that have nothing to do with the main arc but describe a historical event that happened a long time ago and somehow affected the universe (these of course will soon end up on the editing room's floor.) It's because I personally love books that include such details, and books that first introduce a character as a bit character, only to later bring up stories about their past that makes you see them in a whole new light.
Writing my own book, I think I got a little caught up in these penchants of mine.
Yeah I was directing that at Linda, hence the quote. Honestly I have no clue how to respond to "add more plot," except to just blink at the screen.
The first step is to see where the protagonist received cooperation or help, and then take it away.
The second step is to look at every character, even small ones, and give them goals. If you can make their goals incompatible with the protagonist's, you have more plot. You get betrayals, or additional antagonists, or whatever.
The third step is to look at the hero's successes and turn them into failures. Indiana Jones is a guy who failed in the most amazing, spectacular, and admirable ways..
The second step is to look at every character, even small ones, and give them goals. If you can make their goals incompatible with the protagonist's, you have more plot. You get betrayals, or additional antagonists, or whatever.
Oh, I assure you that agents and publishers have problems with novels in the 75-80K range. They've told me so.
I must confess that surprises me too, every agent I've met, and every agent blog I've read, places the typical wordcount between 80 and 120K.
...The problem with him however (and this I found out through my paid editor, way before posting this thread,) that he spends near 50 pages telling his back story until he reaches a point where the other characters, and the reader, understand why he is still a villain. I will cut all that out, yet keeping the surprise would be a challenge. I may have to get rid of him or the surprise entirely.
That's the basic difference in people who write short and those who write long, I think. I hate all that stuff when I read and invariably skip it.
Sorry. That should have been BELOW the 75-80k range. Mine seem to invariably start around 60k at the first draft. That is "officially" novel length but not long enough.Really? Because I hear from a lot of publishers and agents that shorter is better. Obviously not too short, but even 80k is considered too short?
Anahid21 **I'm too fond of side stories and back stories. In fact there are chapters in my book that have nothing to do with the main arc but describe a historical event that happened a long time ago and somehow affected the universe **
Certainly adding sidestories and excursions into unrelated historical events can be the reason some folks write 'long'.
Many folks, though, are simply telling stories that take more words to tell. I'd say the 'shape' of the plot determines how long the story is going to be.
Why would they think I'm the next bestselling author to give me their time of the day?
Is Harry Potter YA? Because mine sort of follows a similar style: Young teens handling adult situations and having to grow up. Some already act beyond their age due to past experiences.
I would call it YA but then I think of the Twilight series and it makes me pause.