WHY do you dislike Self/POD Publishing?

[scarletpeaches]

Back! Back, I say! I'm on your side! I totally agree! I'm just saying if she already went that route and self-published something it doesn't necessarily cripple her entire future with other publishers! Help! She's gonna hit me!

Dammit man, why are you wasting time replying to me? Write, for God's sake! Write like your face is on fire!

 

[Jen_D]

If you weren't ready to get out there and compete, why on Earth should people pay you for a copy of your book?

For these reasons:

* arranging for press interviews
* getting your book into stores and finding the best possible place for it in those stores
* arranging a book tour, complete with flight schedules, hotel reservations and event coordination
* tracking sales

I have some, ah, issues that make it hard for me to socialize in a "normal" manner. I'm not exactly your average person, my life has been different in a not always so good way.
But anyway, I just mentioned it, I didn't mean to divert the attention of my original question.

Sorry, I should have clarified, the store brand name brand question wasn't referring to self publishing at all. I was thinking about small verses big publishers.

I know these seem like stupid or boring questions, but I like learning and I like seeing how others react to and feel about things.

 

[scope]

"... I wasn't ready to put myself out there yet

So many times I read where people make this statement. It's never made any sense to me. Can you explain it?

Self-publishing, whatever the type, while having it's place (as described here by others), carries with it a very poor reputation (and please, let's not get into the dozen or so famous authors who started out by self-publishing). The whys are simple: 95% of those who self-publish do not have any ability to write and edit a book which could make its way past an agent or an editor. The majority self-publish in order to have a printed book that has their name on the cover as author (it's a high for them and they can tell others they wrote a book and it was published). It's the very easy way out. You don't have to get an agent. You don't need a large, thirsty audience. You don't have to know how or get involved in publicity or marketing. You don't have to know how to write a great query letter, proposal, synopsis, cover letter. You don't have to edit. You don't have to listen to others trying to force you to make changes in your work. You don't have to wait for your agent to find a publisher who wants your work. You don't have to worry about board meetings by the agency and publisher. You don't have to put in many months or even years to get your worked published, should it happen. You don't have to deal with fairly constant rejection. Obviously, I could go on and on, but there's no point in doing so.

Except for the few for whom self-publishing makes a whole lot of sense, many of whom are terrific writers, self-publishing always reminds me of those ads you see in newspapers and magazines saying "You Can Be An Actor" -- "Looking For Models Just Like You"

 

[scarletpeaches]

I'm not sure I fully understand your post above, but all of the things you list above are made a hell of a lot more difficult if you self-publish. I'm not saying a traditional publisher does it all for you, but they do a lot more than you could accomplish on your own.

And when it comes to socialising in a 'normal' manner...that's an issue that's come up a lot on AW recently.

Everyone has problems. Everyone's life is different in some way.

I just don't see how SP/POD helps that but I can see plenty of ways it would make that worse.

 

[Jerry B. Flory]

I've written most of the day and, very unlike my usual style. This is writing too. It's socializing in the sewer of consciousness while helping Jen answer her questions without being boring.
We're all different, Jen. It doesn't matter how. If you can type you're not too far gone.

 

[Redaelf]

RE: publisher's looking at your record

There *is* that. They will have to deal with the fact that if someone Google-stalks you, this could come up, and that a sub-standard product may affect the sales of theirs.

Self-publishing novels often is done with bitterness toward standard publishing or ignorance, too--they have to think through what this means about you, and tread more softly.

It doesn't mean you've condemned yourself, necessarily. It can be a bit of a drawback for them, though.

 

[Cyia]

I have some, ah, issues that make it hard for me to socialize in a "normal" manner. I'm not exactly your average person, my life has been different in a not always so good way

.

Yeah, you and a lot of people. There aren't many "average" people out there - most of us fall to the extremes that make the others average. If you were average, you most likely wouldn't think you had a story to tell in the first place.

It sounds like you came at this thinking that no commercial publisher would take your project, so you went the POD route to circumvent rejection you hadn't even faced. If you don't think your porject is up to par for a commerical publisher to purchase rights to, then what makes you think anyone would pay money for it to read?

This business is full of rejection. Tens and twenties and hundreds of times. It happens. Then you find someone willing to pay you for your work - OR you realize there's a reason they won't and you do your best to rectify that reason and try again.

 

[James D. Macdonald]

I was told that, on average, anyone self publishing will find it harder to be accepted by a traditional publisher later.

No.

The self-published book doesn't count as a writing credit (unless it sold some fantastic number of copies or won some major award)--but it doesn't count against you.

Absent those sales or that award, though, don't bother to mention it in the cover letter. (Same goes for vanity press, same goes for some micro-publisher that you'd need FBI assistance to find.)

 

[maestrowork]

Also, none of this is really addressing why even those who go with the tiny no-name publishers stick up their noses. Are they really all that much better than doing it for your self? As far as I can see they don't pay up front, don't offer a lot in way of editing or marketing. It's kind of like a round about way to self publishing.

Who with no-name publishers stick up their noses?

Besides, the difference is this: at least they get someone other than their own mother willing to put up the cash to publish, distribute and sell their novels. That's the "gatekeeper" thing I mentioned. With vanity/self-pub, there really is no gatekeeper so the level of quality can be all over the place. Some self-published books are unreadable crap. That makes finding the gem out of thousands of self-published books more difficult.

OH, btw; I chose self/pod publishing for my first book because I didn't feel ready to put myself out there and compete yet. So yes, some people do choose it.

Then you're still not ready no matter how many copies you have printed for yourself. Why not just go to Kinko's if you're not ready for the business?

does this mean any future books I plan to submit to "big name" publishers will automatically be rejected?

No, it's not automatic. People still judge a ms. on its own merit, but they will ask the question: "Why did this person self-publish her first six books? Is there something wrong with those books?"

Most people simply won't mention the self-pub credits, because they really aren't considered credits. So you're back to square one. No big deal.

For these reasons:
I have some, ah, issues that make it hard for me to socialize in a "normal" manner. I'm not exactly your average person, my life has been different in a not always so good way.

You don't have to do all that "book tour" things. But let me ask you: what is your purpose of getting published? If you just want to have some copies of your book available to your family and loved ones, why not just make copies at Lulu, for example? If you are not willing to do the marketing/promotion, then how do you think you will get readership? As far as I know, even the top authors such as Rowling or King have to do some kind of promotions because their fans demand it. Nowadays you really can't be a complete hermit and succeed in the publication business (some try: Thomas Harris, for example).

So you really have to answer the question: what do you want out of this? Is it an ego thing, to see your name on the cover of something? To prove that you can do it, a personal quest? Or do you want readership outside of your immediate circle of friends and family?

 

[Jen_D]

lol. Yeah I kind of figured we're all "different". What I mean is that I grew of with years of abuse due to physical deformities. The kind that don't make publishers want to put your picture on their website/books/have associated with their company, or so I was told all through my childhood.
Thus I have a sever social anxiety disorder and rarely do I even leave the house anymore. Al least not alone anyway.

The deformities aren't all that great, as my family and doctors keep trying to assure me, but when you spend the first nineteen years of your life being told otherwise . . . Well it's hard to feel okay with deliberately setting yourself up for some kind of rejection.

 

[NeuroFizz]

Part of the answer to the original question may be illuminated here:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124151

It may be worthwhile to PM this person to get a first-hand experience. Otherwise, you may want to follow that thread.

 

[Redaelf]

I don't think that's something you have to worry about at this stage.

Most authors are forced to be invisible--no one's going to drag you into a signing, especially if it is a very respectable reason such as an anxiety issue.

 

[Jerry B. Flory]

You're in a cerebral world. We're all equal in appearance here. You, me, my three fricking eyes. It's hard, yeah. No one's going to say it isn't. But, you find what's beautiful in yourself and put it into that book and then you find a first class publisher because who you are is too damn rich, too reactive, too explosive to sell it short to some vanity press.
You don't want your face on it, it doesn't have to be.
Get yourself a framed pic of Steve Buscemi and keep it close by, when ya get feeling down give Steve a look and tell yourself. "If he can do it....

 

[James D. Macdonald]

The kind that don't make publishers want to put your picture on their website/books/have associated with their company, or so I was told all through my childhood.

Anyone who tells you that publishers choose their authors for their personal beauty is blowing smoke.

Anyone who tells you that you have to do book signings or book tours is likewise blowing smoke.

As a writer 100% of your job is to write.

Commercial publishers handle distribution, publicity, and marketing. As a self-publisher you'd have to handle all those yourself.

Why do readers avoid self-published and/or vanity novels? Because no one reads slush for fun.

Here's where self-publication makes sense:

1) Specialized non-fiction
2) Niche fiction
3) Poetry

Any other genre? Not so much.

Leaving aside the quality issue (and the self-published world is much like the slush-pile world -- 95% of it is unreadable), when you self-publish you have publicity, marketing, and distribution being handled by an untrained, underfunded, amateur. Enthusiasm is great, but it doesn't make up for the lack of experience and contacts.

 

[Polenth]

lol. Yeah I kind of figured we're all "different". What I mean is that I grew of with years of abuse due to physical deformities. The kind that don't make publishers want to put your picture on their website/books/have associated with their company, or so I was told all through my childhood.
Thus I have a sever social anxiety disorder and rarely do I even leave the house anymore. Al least not alone anyway.

The successful self published authors I've known have done more social stuff, not less. They're always going to conferences, making connections and getting bookstores to let them do signings. So if you think it's a way to become successful without leaving the house, you might want to reconsider.

 

[Jerry B. Flory]

http://www.davidroche.com/

I spent an evening trading wisecracks with this guy at one of his seminars. He taught me a lot.
As the saying goes you don't judge a book by its cover unless it says Vanity Press at the bottom.

 

[TrickyFiction]

rejection.

This, I understand. It stings it stings it stings it stings.
You're not the only one with this fear.

Personally, I don't think there's any reason to be ashamed of self-publishing. If that's what you want to do, that's what you want to do. Maybe you just want a few people to be able to read your story. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, with what you've explained, self-publishing could be a decent first step toward overcoming your fears, assuming you haven't gone the way of PA or some other vanity publisher.

But hopefully this is just a first step, and eventually you'll be ready to take another. Because not doing something for fear of failure or rejection can create overpowering regret, in the long run.

 

[job]

Perhaps the best way to prepare for dealing with publishers is to submit work for critique. The SYW section of AW is a good place.

You can find on-line critique partners all over the web.

A critique group can help overcome fear of rejection. It'll give you an idea of whether your work is good enough for publication.
And a critique group may help you improve your writing, which is always a good thing.


The basic problem with self-publication -- whether it's a printing job that lives in boxes in your garage or POD with LuLu -- is that few people will ever read your work.

Now I read ... oh ... hundreds of books a year.
Not one of these books is self-published.
I think I'm pretty typical in terms of book buying.


As to appearances ... writers are sometimes pretty, sometimes a bit weird, mostly ordinary. They're like everybody else.

Science fiction writers Here And here. Romance writers here. Mystery writers here.

You don't have to put your picture on your book or your blog. You don't have to sign books or do book tours.

The publisher wants a good book, delivered on time, and a rational approach to editing. That's about it.

 

[blacbird]

I want to be serious here, because I know a lot of people feel very strongly one way or the other, but no one ever gives a very good reason as to why Self/POD publishing is so bad.

A minor look-around on this site will give you plenty of examples of good reasons why it's regarded with skepticism and disdain. Distilled, it comes down to: Nowadays anybody can "publish" any kind of drivel, unedited, unvetted in any way, and pretend that it's "published". And many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many "writers" do exactly that.

Sufficient explanation?

caw

 

[RJK]

The elephant in the room and the original question Jen asked is what is the difference in the OUTCOME between SP/POD and using a very small publisher. One who doesn't have the resources to market your book, or push it out to the smaller cities.

This is a legitimate question we must ask ourselves when considering a contract with a publisher with few resources and a minimal track record.

 

[Marian Perera]

Well it's hard to feel okay with deliberately setting yourself up for some kind of rejection.

But publishers won't be rejecting you - they'll be rejecting your work. There's a difference.

You could look like Charlize Theron, but if you wrote like Charlie Gordon, you'd still be rejected. On the other hand, if you write a killer book, agents and editors aren't going to ask for a headshot before they send a contract.

 

[Momento Mori]

Jen_D:
Or why, for that matter, it's worse than even some of the lousy "vanity" and small publishers that people here go with. I've seen several books/authors here who stick their nose up at Self/POD publishing, but then rave about the tiny little no-name publisher they went with.

There's a distinction between going with:

1. a vanity publisher who charges the author in order to publish them;

2. a small start-up publisher who no one has heard of and which has no or v. little industry experience; and

3. a small publisher that pays advances, is established within the industry and has a track record of getting books into stores, into respected review journals and on the long and short lists of respected awards.

If you check out the Bewares and Background Forum, the publishers described in (1) and (2) above then most people thinking of going with them will either be advised to try a commercial, advance-paying publisher first and if they want to self-publish, use a more up-front self-publishing company like Lulu because in that situation self-publishing is more likely to be beneficial to them than going with either of those types of company.

As for why people caution against self-publishing, it's because many people who go into it do so without realising the implications. For example:

- if you've self-published your book then pretty much the only way of getting a commercial publisher to pick it up is to make high sales;

- it is difficult to get a self-published book into the critical mass of bookstores necessary to make self-publishing profitable for the author; and

- self-publishing usually involves the author having to heavily market and promote their book - that takes a lot of time and sometimes a lot of money and if you've never had to market something before, it's a steep learning curve.

Like other people have said, self-publishing can work fine if you're going into it knowing that the book will appeal to a specific and small market or if you have limited expectations or your goal is not to make profit from the work (e.g. if you are producing a book for a charity or as a gift for friends and family).

Jen_D:
If I chose to go the self publishing route with my first story because I knew ahead of time it would be only appealing to a very limited audience and because, as I've said, I wasn't ready to put myself out there yet; does this mean any future books I plan to submit to "big name" publishers will automatically be rejected?

Not if you're querying a completely new manuscript. Most publishers/agents don't care about self-published works unless you're presenting it to them with significant sales figures (in which case they might sit up and take notice). The thing to bear in mind though is that self-publishing your first manuscript doesn't count as a publishing credit, so there's no point in mentioning it in your query letter because all it does is highlight you as an amateur.

MM

 

[Samantha's_Song]

Around a year ago, my brother's wife was gushing over a book that was written by a friend of theirs. It was a life story and actually had my brother and our small sister, who'd died in 1976, in it. A book that mentioned some of my family members sound quite strange to be quite honest, sort of surreal.

Anyway, my mum wanted to have a look at this book, so my brother's wife gave it to me. Between visiting them, taking the book, and visiting our mum, I read a chapter of it. It was bloody awful! Along with me laughing at how two 5 yr olds were have supposed to put the world to rights, the spelling and grammar were disgusting; the writer didn't even know the difference between there, their and they're. I was quite annoyed too, as I'd just been rejected by four agents for my own book... if this crap could be published, then why couldn't I be?

I then looked up the publishers on the internet and found out this utter drivel was self-published and cost her lots of money to do so. For myself, I would want to know that my writing was the best it could possibly be, no, absolutely-bloody-perfect, before I would want to be published at all. Anyone can be self-published, but I would rather do it the hard way and know that what I'd written in a novel was what people would want to read and not take the piss out of.

 

[Phaeal]

Back! Back, I say! I'm on your side! I totally agree! I'm just saying if she already went that route and self-published something it doesn't necessarily cripple her entire future with other publishers! Help! She's gonna hit me!

Well, the agents and publishers won't know she was self-published before unless:

1. She tells them. Probably a bad idea.

2. She was a self-publishing success, in which case they'll already know and will be looking to commercially publish the book.

3. They Googled it out, in which case I'm assuming they're already interested in the new material she's submitted, otherwise why would they bother?

 

[Philky]

I'll speak from experience. One of my lifetime goals was to publish a book by the age of 25. I finished my novel at 24 and read up on the process for getting published. I became disheartened by the stories of people receiving countless rejections and the painstaking process. I found the world of POD and thought, "Hey! That's the way to go... and I can completely control my work! And make more profit! And whatever ridiculous thing I think I can do!" I never even bothered approaching agents or going the traditional route. I went straight to POD.

My decision was a foolish one. Not only did I shell out money to have someone who really didn't care about my book print it, but I was ill-equipped to properly market my book considering my time and finances. It wasn't until after I had published the book that I realized just how seriously people take self-published books (which is really not at all).

After I published this book, I had several other self-publishing companies try to get me to publish with them. One of them belonged to a guy I knew from college who was always looking to make a quick buck off others.

All in all, I'm proud that I reached my goal, but if I could do it again, I would have taken the traditional path. I think I would know more about the industry (and I paid dearly for my lack of research) and probably would have advanced better as a writer at an earlier age.