Mystical Negro Offensive Cliche - Follow Up Question in #15

[Helix]

I don't give a fat-frog's-ass-fried-in-a-rolling-donut 'bout what anyone says 'bout race or politics unless they've been to school. And I don't mean "attending class on-line". Get a degree --a real degree --and then throw down. Chatroom jabber is just graffiti on a urinal stall.

That's nice.

 

[Brigid Barry]

I don't give a fat-frog's-ass-fried-in-a-rolling-donut 'bout what anyone says 'bout race or politics unless they've been to school. And I don't mean "attending class on-line". Get a degree --a real degree --and then throw down. Chatroom jabber is just graffiti on a urinal stall.

I have two degrees and it doesn't affect the price of butter when it comes to racism.

 

[lizmonster]

[says some things]

Maybe try hitting the stickies of the room one more time? Just a suggestion.

 

[lizmonster]

I clarified my question, which was intended to ask if I, a white writer, should only have white characters to avoid the issues Roxxsmom mentioned. I think in shorthand and my question wasn't clear (although the answer probably still applies).

If I continue on my current trajectory the point is moot anyway.

I kinda picked on you, and I apologize for that, but it's one of those things that's sort of hard to unsee once you see it: we all us/them when we're having discussions, particularly discussions like this. It's not always along racial lines, and personally, as a writer, I think actively challenging ourselves to recognize our own biases can only bring good things, creatively.

As for how to write certain types of characters? I'm not sure anybody has a good answer to that. You can write, and submit to sensitivity readers/crit partners, and see how things come across. You're likely to get good feedback, even when people feel you're doing it really well. But unless you've really put your foot in it, you're unlikely to get a consensus.

I write a diverse cast for the very basic reason that we live in a diverse world, and I'm not going to create fiction that has less ethnic variance than the people I buy groceries with every weekend. I also write far-future SF, which allows me to dodge quite a bit. Effectively? I suspect plenty of readers would tell you no. But I keep trying, because it's part of building my skill set.

 

[Fi Webster]

I don't give a fat-frog's-ass-fried-in-a-rolling-donut 'bout what anyone says 'bout race or politics unless they've been to school. And I don't mean "attending class on-line". Get a degree --a real degree --and then throw down. Chatroom jabber is just graffiti on a urinal stall.

How charming you are.

 

[KitCarruthers]

FYI. I stand by anything I blurt out on any chatroom. Any moderator can annihilate me, or ban me, but I never do less than speak my mind. I never soft-soap.

'Mystical negro' --famously used in contemporary times by Stephen King, "The Green Mile". He didn't lose any money at all on that project. Best-seller, last time I checked. We all ate it up, didn't we?

Attitudes towards non-whites in American culture and literature --this history has many twists and turns. There's no clear villain.

It's foppish to draw hasty conclusions. FREX, did you know that native American Indians also kept black slaves? Yes, it happened.

And by the way, I despise political discussions. But the mods of this site advise me not to revive any old thread even if it has 'dormant content' which interests me.

The very last thing I "have fun doing", is talking politics. My God. I despise it! I'm astonished that this writer's website discusses politics at all. Why?

Shouldn't all politics be banned, just like in a tap room? It only brings about divisiveness and schism. Why aren't writers discussing ...writing? (I'm new here, please pardon my garish naivete').

Oh well. To complete my thought: besides 'mystical Negro' in American lit there's also a longstanding trad of 'mystical Indian'. The opposite of 'savage bloodthirsty Indian'. There was also the, 'inscrutable Oriental' .

For negros, the earlier historical strand before 'mystical' was "StepenFetchit". Among many others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepin_Fetchit

To discuss all this competently, you need to be very familiar with Hollywood movies from the '30s and '40s. You need to know the history of jazz and ragtime and poetry.

I hate to sound like a toff but how many peeps here are authorities on such? Are you familiar with Al Jolson, Amos'n'Andy, Charlie Chan, et al?

If not, then why not go over to Reddit? It's bewildering. I thought this was a writer's website.

 

[Jazz Club]

So is it better for white writers (like me) to not have a diverse cast?

Edited for clarity.

I think it's fine and expected to have a diverse cast if you're a white writer, but there's quite a lot of discussion now about whether white writers should write non-white main characters. I've seen quite a lot of agents say things like 'why are you the best person to write this?' or 'I'd really prefer the author to be of the same culture as their MC'. Probably because in the past, people didn't do the research and wrote shallow, quasi offensive caricatures, and also because agents want to give marginalised voices a chance (which is good).

I have a non-white MC in a project that's set in the distant future, but in stuff set now, I've been told it's better not to write non-white MCs. I don't know if 'everyone' thinks this, but it seems to be pretty widespread in the industry at the moment.

 

[Jazz Club]

I don't give a fat-frog's-ass-fried-in-a-rolling-donut 'bout what anyone says 'bout race or politics unless they've been to school. And I don't mean "attending class on-line". Get a degree --a real degree --and then throw down. Chatroom jabber is just graffiti on a urinal stall.

Why would people need to go to college to be allowed to discuss racism or politics? Don't those issues affect non-college educated folk too?

 

[lizmonster]

I'm astonished that this writer's website discusses politics at all. Why?

Art is inherently political. If you think it's not, you're writing about the status quo.

 

[Jazz Club]

If not, then why not go over to Reddit? It's bewildering.

Oh don't worry, I do. It's perfect for the dumbasses like me. 40,000 karma and counting

I thought this was a writer's website.

I like to write and I also like reddit!

 

[Brigid Barry]

I kinda picked on you, and I apologize for that, but it's one of those things that's sort of hard to unsee once you see it: we all us/them when we're having discussions, particularly discussions like this. It's not always along racial lines, and personally, as a writer, I think actively challenging ourselves to recognize our own biases can only bring good things, creatively.

And the way I phrased the question I understand what you did. I had the context in my head and didn't put it "on the page".

As for how to write certain types of characters? I'm not sure anybody has a good answer to that. You can write, and submit to sensitivity readers/crit partners, and see how things come across. You're likely to get good feedback, even when people feel you're doing it really well. But unless you've really put your foot in it, you're unlikely to get a consensus.

I write a diverse cast for the very basic reason that we live in a diverse world, and I'm not going to create fiction that has less ethnic variance than the people I buy groceries with every weekend. I also write far-future SF, which allows me to dodge quite a bit. Effectively? I suspect plenty of readers would tell you no. But I keep trying, because it's part of building my skill set.

Maine is very, very homogeneous, especially at the time period the original post referred to, and I gave what I felt was an empowered character a race different from mine for the purpose of not having an all-white cast. My fantasy has even more diversity but it's not "a thing", it's just the world. I am very mindful of what I write to not stick my foot in my mouth. At the same time I don't want to commit (be guilty of?) tokenism. I'll figure it out eventually.

I think it's fine and expected to have a diverse cast if you're a white writer, but there's quite a lot of discussion now about whether white writers should write non-white main characters. I've seen quite a lot of agents say things like 'why are you the best person to write this?' or 'I'd really prefer the author to be of the same culture as their MC'. Probably because in the past, people didn't do the research and wrote shallow, quasi offensive caricatures, and also because agents want to give marginalised voices a chance (which is good).

I have a non-white MC in a project that's set in the distant future, but in stuff set now, I've been told it's better not to write non-white MCs. I don't know if 'everyone' thinks this, but it seems to be pretty widespread in the industry at the moment.

My understanding is that the issue primarily comes from writing stories that aren't the author's to tell. So if you have a POC as you MC that's fine as long as you aren't trying to write about racism, if that makes sense.

For safety I'll stick with my white cis women MCs and if I ever get to publishing I'll let an editor yell at me about my secondary characters.

 

[Jazz Club]

For safety I'll stick with my white cis women MCs and if I ever get to publishing I'll let an editor yell at me about my secondary characters.

I don't think you'll get yelled at for secondary characters as long as they're not written offensively, and I'm sure yours wouldn't be. But you can get a sensitivity reader if you're concerned about it.

 

[Fi Webster]

Shouldn't all politics be banned, just like in a tap room? It only brings about divisiveness and schism. Why aren't writers discussing ...writing? (I'm new here, please pardon my garish naivete
[...]
It's bewildering. I thought this was a writer's website.

Are you... uhh... unclear on the fact that professional writers do write about politics?

—currently reading the brilliant political writing of Gore Vidal,

Fi

 

[Brigid Barry]

FYI. I stand by anything I blurt out on any chatroom. Any moderator can annihilate me, or ban me, but I never do less than speak my mind. I never soft-soap.

'Mystical negro' --famously used in contemporary times by Stephen King, "The Green Mile". He didn't lose any money at all on that project. Best-seller, last time I checked. We all ate it up, didn't we?

Attitudes towards non-whites in American culture and literature --this history has many twists and turns. There's no clear villain.

It's foppish to draw hasty conclusions. FREX, did you know that native American Indians also kept black slaves? Yes, it happened.

And by the way, I despise political discussions. But the mods of this site advise me not to revive any old thread even if it has dormant content which interests me.

The very last thing I "have fun doing", is talking politics. My God. I despise it! I'm astonished that this writer's website discusses politics at all. Why?

Shouldn't all politics be banned, just like in a tap room? It only brings about divisiveness and schism. Why aren't writers discussing ...writing? (I'm new here, please pardon my garish naivete').

Oh well. To complete my thought: besides 'mystical Negro' in American lit there's also a longstanding trad of 'mystical Indian'. The opposite of 'savage bloodthirsty Indian'.

For negros, the earlier historical strand before 'mystical' was "StepenFetchit". Among many others.

To discuss all this competently, you need to be very familiar with Hollywood movies from the '30s and '40s. You need to know the history of jazz and ragtime and poetry.

I hate to sound like a toff but how many peeps here are authorities on such? Are you familiar with Al Jolson, Amos'n'Andy, Charlie Chan, et al?

If not, then why not go over to Reddit? It's bewildering. I thought this was a writer's website.

...we're discussing covert racism in writing, so not sure where your confusion comes from. I don't need to be a major in whatever fields you're discussing to know that profiting off of racism is a bad thing.

 

[KitCarruthers]

Art is inherently political. If you think it's not, you're writing about the status quo.

Sage riposte. I somewhat agree with you. But you must know there's a vast historical movement which believes art is not political at all.

 

[Unimportant]

FYI. I stand by anything I blurt out on any chatroom. Any moderator can annihilate me, or ban me, but I never do less than speak my mind. I never soft-soap.

This sounds an awful lot like "I don't feel I need to respect my fellow writers."

'Mystical negro' --famously used in contemporary times by Stephen King, "The Green Mile". He didn't lose any money at all on that project. Best-seller, last time I checked. We all ate it up, didn't we?

Oh, so profit makes it all okay?

Attitudes towards non-whites in American culture and literature --this history has many twists and turns. There's no clear villain.

This is not solely an American board. Racism of different types exists all round the world.

And by the way, I despise political discussions.

Then maybe consider not participating in them? No one is obliged to.

The very last thing I "have fun doing", is talking politics. My God. I despise it!

Then why are you doing it?

I'm astonished that this writer's website discusses politics at all. Why?

BECAUSE THIS WEBSITE IS OWNED BY MACALLISTER AND SHE DECIDES ITS CONTENT. I'll ask her to explain it to you.

Shouldn't all politics be banned, just like in a tap room? It only brings about divisiveness and schism. Why aren't writers discussing ...writing? (I'm new here, please pardon my garish naivete').

If you feel you may be crossing lines, WHY NOT GO BACK AND READ THE STICKIES TO FAMILIARISE YOURSELF WITH EXPECTATIONS?

To discuss all this competently, you need to be very familiar with Hollywood movies from the '30s and '40s. You need to know the history of jazz and ragtime and poetry.

I hate to sound like a toff

kinda late to be thinking of that now

but how many peeps here are authorities on such? Are you familiar with Al Jolson, Amos'n'Andy, Charlie Chan, et al?

Why not assume we are educated and knowledgeable? Discussions generally have a more civil discourse if one new member doesn't assume automatic superiority over everyone else based on precisely nothing.

 

[lizmonster]

Sage riposte. I somewhat agree with you. But you must know there's a vast historical movement which believes art is not political at all.

1) I disagree, to the point I believe those movements are demonstrably incorrect.
2) I don't care.

This room isn't the place to have this conversation. Did you take my earlier suggestion of reading the stickies?

 

[ChaseJxyz]

I clarified my question, which was intended to ask if I, a white writer, should only have white characters to avoid the issues Roxxsmom mentioned. I think in shorthand and my question wasn't clear (although the answer probably still applies).

If I continue on my current trajectory the point is moot anyway.

Should I, a pansexual polyamorous trans guy, have straight characters? Or mono-amory-us characters? Or trans women? Or cis women? I mean, I'm not any of those things!

I see a lot of cishet writers say "I should not write about queer people at all, just to be safe. I might screw something up." And since the vast majority of published writers are cishet, that means a lot of stories only have cishet characters. Or queer characters are "a very special episode"-type characters, where their entire deal is being queer, and they don't have normal problems or go on normal adventures.

If you want to be 100% certain you will never offend any not-white person ever, then, yes, you could write only white characters. But then people are going to point out you're only writing about white characters, so now you have an all new problem.

If your character's story does not revolve around their race/ethnicity then, as someone not from that group, you should be okay writing a non-white MC. Assuming their race/ethnicity is also not a big deal in the setting. If you pulled a Stephen King and made all of your stories set in Maine, then a poc dealing with a haunted house should be much the same as a white character. If it was modern day, that is. If this was set in "it was called Massachusetts" times, then a poc is going to have a VERY different experience than a white character.

I write mostly second-world fantasy, so I don't have to worry about real-world racism. If you write sci-fi far enough in the future, same deal. So I also don't think about this issue in the same way, so maybe take my advice with a grain of salt.

(I do have one explicitly cis/het/not-poly and also white guy character. Everything that can possibly go wrong happens to him, which I think is funny. I wonder if anyone is ever going to notice)

 

[Jazz Club]

If you want to be 100% certain you will never offend any not-white person ever, then, yes, you could write only white characters. But then people are going to point out you're only writing about white characters, so now you have an all new problem.

Yeah, this. It looks like an author is making some kind of racist point if they have *no* non-white characters, even if they're doing so with so-called 'good intentions' because they don't want to make mistakes or offend anyone. Some (most?) people won't realise they're doing it from a surfeit of trying to be sensitive and might think they're just one of those unreconstructed racists. If it's realistic that there would be POC in the area/timeframe where the book is set, then it's definitely right to include them in the story.

If your character's story does not revolve around their race/ethnicity then, as someone not from that group, you should be okay writing a non-white MC. Assuming their race/ethnicity is also not a big deal in the setting.

I've been told differently. I wonder was I told wrongly? The advice was pretty strong.

(I do have one explicitly cis/het/not-poly and also white guy character. Everything that can possibly go wrong happens to him, which I think is funny. I wonder if anyone is ever going to notice)

Probably, now you've told us all here

 

[Fi Webster]

Discussions generally have a more civil discourse if one new member doesn't assume automatic superiority over everyone else based on precisely nothing.

QFT.

 

[mccardey]

I don't give a fat-frog's-ass-fried-in-a-rolling-donut 'bout what anyone says 'bout race or politics unless they've been to school. And I don't mean "attending class on-line". Get a degree --a real degree --and then throw down. Chatroom jabber is just graffiti on a urinal stall.

oh, dear

 

[PastyAlien]

FYI. I stand by anything I blurt out on any chatroom. Any moderator can annihilate me, or ban me,

Just gonna put this here

 

[Helix]

I don't give a fat-frog's-ass-fried-in-a-rolling-donut 'bout what anyone says 'bout race or politics unless they've been to school. And I don't mean "attending class on-line". Get a degree --a real degree --and then throw down. Chatroom jabber is just graffiti on a urinal stall.

Kit -- if that's your real name* -- perhaps introduce yourself in the New Members forum.

Anyway, multiple degrees here, but I don't read graffiti on urinal walls.


* Yes, yes, we've all seen the movie

 

[mccardey]

Kit -- if that's your real name* -- perhaps introduce yourself in the New Members forum.

Anyway, multiple degrees here, but I don't read graffiti on urinal walls.

Is this the moment to point out that many of us wouldn't even pee on a urinal wall? Or indeed, in a urinal stall?

 

[Helix]

Is this the moment to point out that many of us wouldn't even pee on a urinal wall? Or indeed, in a urinal stall?

*squints*

wall...stall...

I need new glasses

Yes, there's a certain lens* applied in these comments of Kit's


* not the sort I need in my glasses