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MacAllister

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Important!

My intention in turning off the bad words censor was never to make profanity fair game. Actually, quite the opposite: My intention was to confront people gaming the system and throw the onus of responsibility for that language back into their own laps.

When and if you choose to curse, please consider your words and choose them deliberately and with great care. Excruciating care, in fact. I'm not singling anyone out, btw--there are several people to whom this applies.

This has been a public service announcement for a more language-aware tomorrow.


best,
M
 

robeiae

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LANGUAGE!

I realize we are all (or almost all) adults and that people should be able to express themselves in the way they want to express themselves. But come on...there's no need for all these "sentence enhancers," is there? I have in mind a couple of the four letter ones...

I think they tend to have an escalating effect, and some threads certainly don't need any help in that regard.

And note that I'm not demanding. And I'm not issuing any kind of ultimatum. Or drawing a line in the sand. I'm just asking. :)
 

MacAllister

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LANGUAGE!

I realize we are all (or almost all) adults and that people should be able to express themselves in the way they want to express themselves. But come on...there's no need for all these "sentence enhancers," is there? I have in mind a couple of the four letter ones...

I think they tend to have an escalating effect, and some threads certainly don't need any help in that regard.

And note that I'm not demanding. And I'm not issuing any kind of ultimatum. Or drawing a line in the sand. I'm just asking. :)

Frankly, I am on the verge of demanding and drawing lines in the sand.

I'd like to reiterate Robeiae's very reasonable observations. Fight fair, folks, and use the language best suitable for the ideas you're presenting. That might very occasionally include profanity. But you'll have to use it with extreme skill if you're going persuade the rest of us. (And god knows I curse a blue streak on occasion, myself. I nearly always regret it, though.)

When I turned off the profanity censor it was because I don't think writers should be afraid of words. I think we must use those words carefully and responsibly, though -- not like twelve year olds out from under adult supervision for the first time.
 

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Regarding a disturbing trend I'm seeing in P&CE

1. People should only post things they're interested in.
2. If they're interested, then they should have something to say about why to generate conversation.
3. People who just drop inflammatory stuff into threads, or start new ones with sensational and provocative subjects, just to see how other people will react, are treading very close to trolldom, whether or not that's what they meant to do. You may be a model citizen everywhere else on AW and the internet, so I'm not saying "you're a troll" - I'm saying that kind of behavior is troll-like and not what we want to see here.

So, please, do post something you have an opinion about, state it, contribute to the increase in knowledge, but let's stop looking for ways to stir shit up as a motivation. Absent some kind of actual meaningful commentary, I'm gonna start just deleting these kinds of threads/posts.
 

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Addendum A to A Message from Dawno

Don't take things posted in this forum so personally. This forum *is* controversial. People are going to have positions and opinions you disagree with. So, disagree with the position, but don't behave as if those posts that disagree with your position are personal attacks.

It's tedious for the rest of us to read the back and forth postings over misunderstandings, perceived slights and generalizations taken as pointed accusations. It is so tedious that I know of dozens (and suspect there are many more) AW members who wouldn't post in this forum if you promised them the moon.

What I'm going to say next isn't going to make me very popular, but it's not my job here to be popular. Some of you have really thin skin. You bristle all the time at perceived insults and turn threads into very uncomfortable places because everyone has to walk on eggshells not to insult you. The ones who don't know it, or don't care to tread lightly, have to spend post after post arguing with you that they didn't single you, or your cause/background/faith/whatever, out.

People make generalizations all the time. If you see a generalization that you think has lumped you into a particular category, discuss how it's unfair, show a different perspective, don't go attacking the poster for offending/insulting you personally - they didn't.

The response to "X (is/does) Y" shouldn't be "I'm offended by that. I (and my peers in X) don't do Y, so stop insulting me." It should examples of why that statement is untrue. When you respond by being personally offended by a generalization, you are actually the one who has started the personal attack by taking it personally.

If someone does make a personal attack (usually indicated by something like "Dawno, you're an idiot."), REPORT THE DAMN THING. That's what moderators are for - to determine if there is a problem and take care of it.

Also - the ignore button is your friend. If there's someone whose every post rubs you the wrong way, ignore them.
 

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Addendum B to A Message from Dawno

The Politics and Current Events forum is a privilege given graciously to the people here who wish to discuss these topics. As I stated above, this is a privately owned, moderated board. There is no blanket "right" to free speech. Our prime directive is 'respect your fellow writer' and the moderators all try to apply that as fairly as possible. Our next responsibility is to provide a fun, informative, and comfortable place to talk about writing for the over 20k members here.

Allowing current event and political discussions is, realistically, not essential to a writing focused forum and AW's policy could be to simply delete all non-writing threads/posts, without appeal.

We'd rather not do that, so we have Office Party and this forum. We will, however continue to expect a certain decorum here. So, these posts are intended to advise you about the way I will moderate this forum. If I've stepped out of line MacAllister and I will have that conversation and I will either modify my position appropriately or step down if I'm totally off base and not the right moderator for this place.
 
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Dawno

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A Message from Dawno ver. 1.03

One of the great things about the great majority of established members here at AW is your desire to help keep this place informative, fun and civil, all on your own. Since there are a relatively small number of moderators available at any one time, we often aren't the first to see a problem. Members who see threads beginning to get rude or mean are encouraged to remind the participants to respect each other and try to steer things back to civility. This is not considered a usurpation of the moderator role; we appreciate the help, and we'd love not to have to intervene.

Please accept these efforts with grace and good will.
 

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A Message from Dawno ver. 1.04

If you find yourself in a two or three way argument for post after post, simply discussing what the other person said about what you said, stop. Stop now. Walk away from the keyboard and do not hit "reply".

You're driving people away from the thread - they don't want to read your disputes. You are also discouraging people from posting their own thoughts for fear of becoming the next victim.

I have, and will, delete without remorse when I see this happen.
 

Dawno

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Parag. vi, Message from Dawno, &c.

Addendum B to A Message from Dawno

The Politics and Current Events forum is a privilege, originally granted by Jenna and re-endorsed by MacAllister, given graciously to the people here who wish to discuss these topics. As I stated above, this is a privately owned, moderated board. There is no blanket "right" to free speech. Our prime directive is 'respect your fellow writer' and the moderators all try to apply that as fairly as possible. Our next responsibility is to provide a fun, informative, and comfortable place to talk about writing for the over 20k members here.

Allowing current event and political discussions is, realistically, not essential to a writing focused forum and AW's policy could be to simply delete all non-writing threads/posts, without appeal.

We'd rather not do that, so we have Office Party and this forum. We will, however continue to expect a certain decorum here. So, these posts are intended to advise you about the way I will moderate this forum. If I've stepped out of line MacAllister and I will have that conversation and I will either modify my position appropriately or step down if I'm totally off base and not the right moderator for this place.


...about that part in bold above...

If you don't have the time to post something of substance, something that positively adds to the ongoing discussion in a thread, please ask yourself why you need to post it at all. P&CE isn't Office Party. That's not to say the occasional tension relieving one-liner isn't appreciated and warranted (just use good judgment). Or pop tart kittens...

What I'm getting at here is that we're a writing board. So practice your skills. Did your post get your point across clearly? Did your post advance understanding of a subject or counter with solid logic, or cited facts, a mis-representation?

If it's opinion, did you speak persuasively and passionately about it, without stooping to ad hominem attacks or sarcastic jabs at other people's beliefs/opinions? Did you proofread it in Preview to see how it would look and if it's formatted in a way that's not distracting and hard to read?

Did you check your spelling? Typos are often a symptom of posting in haste or posting when you're a bit too worked up - maybe it's a sign that it's a good time to take a little break from AW and clear your head. If you cited people did you refrain from wholesale copying and use snips and links instead?

We'd really like to see more of that.
 

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I just spent a few moments deleting and editing posts in a thread that was full of personal attacks. As a reference here's what I posted. If you find yourself headed in this direction in a post you're writing - stop and edit this kind of stuff right out, ok?
I'm with Celina. It really isn't all that difficult to stick to discussing the facts and to leave all the personal attacks out of it. Just re-read before you hit post reply and if you've said stuff like this...

Oh, bs. But feel free to continue.
So in other words, what you're saying is it's Israel's fault for making Iran want nukes. Why am I know shocked?
Wishful thinking on your part?

You seem to turn many threads into Israel bashing. Same ol', same ol'.
...although it's terribly convenient for a kool-aid drinker to think so.
Thanks. That wasn't so hard was it ...
Maybe you try doing your own work for a change. ...

Pathetic.
...Will you listen to yourself?
If you don't see the irony of this statement, you're blind. You're telling ME I should do my own work when it was YOU who refused to source out a link for your own post? Riiiiight. I already Googled it. But you're the one who made the post. What's pathetic is expect everyone to do their own research. Lazy is another word that I think fits well here.

You'd make a shitty lawyer. "Your honor, we don't have any evidence, you'll have to go figure it out yourself."

Pathetic is being too lazy to source out links for your own posts.
So instead of arguing the points you post some lazy reply. Typical.
...and liberals like you ...
... Typical too. Your own knees must be aching from all their jerking.
...you're out of line. This forum isn't going to last much longer if we can't move away from shouting over each other in self-righteous indignation.
 

Dawno

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I recently locked a thread where a poll about religion in the US was being discussed and ended up badly, although for many pages and a great deal of the time, it was doing fine. Since people either didn't read this at the time, and certainly now that the thread has sunk to the back pages, won't be reading it in the future, I thought I'd add it here for posterity:

In matters where the original topic has a religious bent, we must all work very hard to stay away from hurtful stereotypes and sweeping condemnations.

No individual claiming any religious position is representative of all members of that religion and when you lump all believers into the same category as that aforementioned individual, you are disrespecting your fellow AW members who do not deserve the bile you have toward that first individual specifically.

Choose your words carefully. Make your antecedents clear. Have something against what you've seen in the news from Phelps, Hagee, Robertson? Fine. They're public figures. Cite them, destroy their arguments. Don't go after the entire class of evangelicals.

Have something to say about an article on a specific priest who was a pedophile or the specific Bishop who moved him from parish to parish? Fine, go for it - but do not lump all Catholics together - for goodness sake, Catholics were the victims!! You think the whole Catholic Church is culpable? Be reasonable.

Have a problem with a Muslim extremist's position - same goes there. Discuss the news topic, dissect the actual text and language used but when threads start heading towards off topic and stereotypical blatherings about "those people" they're going to be closed by what ever supermod happens to be available to see it.
 

MacAllister

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Politics and Current Events arouse passion. They should, too -- it's about the stuff that affects all of us, from how much gas costs, to whether or not it's safe to give that hormone-laced milk to your kids.


You WILL comport yourselves with civility here or you will be blocked from the Politics Forum entirely.


Cribbed from Roger, in a thoughtful response to my request for input:
Opinions, ideas, and beliefs are fair game for disrespect. People and groups are not.

Examples:

1) "Christianity is the greatest blight ever visited upon humanity."

Fair game. That's an opinion which can be debated. You can present arguments for and against it.

2) "Christians are intolerant bigots."

Not appropriate. First of all, it characterizes a hugely diverse group of people down to a single characteristic. No one can possibly say what all people of a group are, and it's wrong on the face of it. Some Christians are bigots, some are not, some fall somewhere in the middle.

3) "Some Christians I've known are bigots."

Still not appropriate. While there are indeed Christian bigots and the poster may have known them, it adds nothing to a discussion. So what? Nearly every group has some member which holds any single characteristic. It's a null argument. It's single purpose is to slide example 2 under the door as a direct observation.

4) "James Dobson is a bigot."

Fair game. He's a prominant political figure. He's put himself in the spotlight and arguments can be presented for and against.

5) "You are an idiot."

Not appropriate. A poster may be uniformed about a particular topic, but no one deserves to be called an idiot. Seldom are these posts this blatant, but usually the implication is clear.

I've used Christianity here in my examples, but this is certainly not limited to that. You can replace it with Democrat, Republican, George Bush, whatever.

Finally:

Don't act like a jerk. You don't name-call, or bait, or sneer, or taunt, or generally be unpleasant to the people around you; at least, not if you want to stay here very long.


You might find a joke gets deleted, or a thread gets locked, that seems perfectly innocent, to you. Usually, if that happens, it's because there were people who were much less comfortable with it. The complexity and diversity in our backgrounds can be much more difficult to face and deal with, honestly, when things are couched in terms of "gosh, it was all just in good fun" because of the built-in refusal to examine underlying attitudes of exclusion, or "I'm normal and you're not" -- which by extension implies that anyone who insists on examining exactly that is humorless and "PC."

Which reminds me -- accusing each other of "being PC" when you disagree really isn't cool. And what it usually boils down to is that someone is being a jerk or a bigot -- maybe inadvertently, maybe not -- and gets called on it which makes that person defensive.

You'll notice, please, I'm also not demanding that anyone agree with my worldview. You don't have to. And you can absolutely debate and discuss and tell me you think I'm wrong, and why you think so -- PMs are usually more appropriate for that, but if it's a discussion that you honestly believe would benefit the community, I'm willing to have that discussion on the boards in public, too.

What members (and all of us are members, mods too) don't get to do is marginalize other members. And we have Muslims and Catholics and Moral-Majority conservative Pentecostals. Republicans and Libertarians and Anarchists. We have brown people, pink people, pot-smokers, hippies, suburban moms, ex-cons, ex-cops, and Homeland Security specialists. We have married folks, and polyamorous folks, and singles and swingers and queers.

I'm not inclined to try and prevent people from thinking and believing whatever they're inclined to think and believe -- whether they're fanatic adherents to the use of the serial comma, or won't use any capital letters or commas at all. It would be a fool's errand, for one thing, and this would be a rather stagnant and boring community, for another.

I'm also not inclined to let people behave like bullies about their beliefs.

My concern about this stuff is largely in terms of building and maintaining a mostly-egalitarian community, at least as much as humanly possible. Because what happens when you get a preponderance of members who tend to agree and share a cultural background, and they take for granted or actively put forth -- even it it's never said in so many words -- that their world view is the only "normal" or "right" world view, is that people who see things differently finally just quietly go away.

I have a vested interest in not letting that happen, here.
 
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MacAllister

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A Reminder

I'm seeing "PC" bandied about as a general accusation a good deal lately. This needs to stop. We've had long and involved discussions about the problems with the term, on more than one occasion.

It's generally not well-meant.
It occasionally downright pejorative.
It's very seldom well-defined.
It's most usually not even an argument, just an attack (or a dismissal without support).

Here are some examples:
People who push PC on others are douchebags.
As for what he said, what's the big deal? Radical Islam is a big problem, are people so politically correct we can't admit that now?

I would have to say yes to that statement.

You'll note, again, that there's absolutely no argument, support, discussion, evidence, or anything else resembling a coherent discussion, in any of those examples. That crap needs to stop.

I'm completely willing to boot people who can't bring a better game to the discussions in this room.
 
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