Having trouble with Third Person Limited . . . .

You can get inside one character's mind at a time. It's called a Point of View -- meaning you can report anything the character sees, hears, tastes, smells, etc. So, yeah, you can write how the character feels. Just not all the characters.

BrookieCookie777 said:

Thanks so much. This is very helpful! Does the charcter you "follow" have to be the same all through the story. Or can you see into the mind of other character just one at a time?

Thanks again! =)

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BrookieCookie777 said:

Oh and I'm guessed that the narrarator being "witty" would be a no-no?

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You can follow different characters, but only one at a time -- sometimes, it's called 3rd person rotating POV. You need a scene or chapter break to change POVs.

No, the narrator is supposed to be invisible (as opposed to omniscient). He can, however, adopt the voice of the character (remember, the narrator is "invisible"). And that's called a close 3rd person.

Maesto,

Can you elaborate on how far you can go while still being invisible? I always thought of close third person as being very similar to first, but still able to pull away from character thoughts and see things in a broader scope.

Constantine K said:

Maesto,

Can you elaborate on how far you can go while still being invisible? I always thought of close third person as being very similar to first, but still able to pull away from character thoughts and see things in a broader scope.

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No. If you're in limited, you can only report on what the character can learn and observe. You can't suddenly pull back and do an omniscient. That's a POV violation. You've made a decision to go with 3rd limited, then stay with it. To do otherwise is a lack of narrative discipline and will jar your astute readers out of their story.

If Bob is the POV character, describing Bob's thought processes is called "internal monologue" and is legal. Once the narrative firmly establishes that we're in Bob's POV, "filtering" terms like "Bob thought" and "Bob felt" can largely be eliminated.

Example: Bob knew Fred attempting to roller skate was a bad idea. Fred couldn't even walk across the room without tripping. Would Fred even make it out alive? Maybe if he tied some pillows to Fred's backside, he could spare him some pain.

Not the greatest example, but hopefully you get the idea. The first sentence establishes POV as Bob, and the rest are Bob's thoughts.

If instead Fred is the POV character, then Fred can't describe explicitly what Bob is thinking, however, Fred can guess what Bob is thinking based on what he knows about Bob. The key is that sometimes Fred might guess wrong.

Hope this helps.

maestrowork said:

No. If you're in limited, you can only report on what the character can learn and observe. You can suddenly pull back and do an omniscient. That's a POV violation. You've made a decision to go with 3rd limited, then stay with it. To do otherwise is a lack of narrative discipline and will jar your astute readers out of their story.

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I know. I didn't explain myself right. I was talking about distance: limited close, limited medium, and limited far.

Didn't mean to say that you could pull out and start reading other characters thoughts, or know that something is in a drawer without the POV knowing its there.

Constantine K said:

I know. I didn't explain myself right. I was talking about distance: limited close, limited medium, and limited far.

Didn't mean to say that you could pull out and start reading other characters thoughts, or know that something is in a drawer without the POV knowing its there.

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I see. If it's a close 3rd limited, it's pretty much like first person, you're really limited to what the character can see, hear, etc. If it's normal 3rd limited, you have certain distance. Meaning you can observe the setting and things that the character "normally" wouldn't be noticing, but still it has to be things that the character can technically observe. No "the man behind was following him." But you can describe buildings and surroundings without "stopping" the character.

maestrowork said:

I see. If it's a close 3rd limited, it's pretty much like first person, you're really limited to what the character can see, hear, etc. If it's normal 3rd limited, you have certain distance. Meaning you can observe the setting and things that the character "normally" wouldn't be noticing, but still it has to be things that the character can technical observe. No "the man behind was following him." But you can describe buildings and surroundings without "stopping" the character.

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Thanks! That's exactly what I wanted to hear.

A little off-topic:
How common is it in books nowadays to have a single third-person POV for the entire novel? It seems every book I read in the third person has multiple POVs . . . unless of course it's first person.

Constantine K said:

Thanks! That's exactly what I wanted to hear.

A little off-topic:
How common is it in books nowadays to have a single third-person POV for the entire novel? It seems every book I read in the third person has multiple POVs . . . unless of course it's first person.

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It's still quite common. For example, Five People You Meet In Heaven was told completely from Eddie's point of view, I believe.

But in third person, it's also common to have multiple POV characters. In my WIP, for example, I have two main POV characters and I switch between them. But I only have two, no more, because it's really a story about these two people.

Yeah, I'm still searching for other examples. In fact, I even read that if you maintain one POV, you should be writing in first person!

Third is just my style, and I love it. I realized early on that I had one person's story to tell, and that I wouldn't be using another viewpoint because there was no reason to. I hope that doesn't hinder me down the road.

In 3rd limited, everything you can say depends on the personality of the POV character. Consider description as a way to reveal character. The test is "Would my character say this or look at the world this way?"

"If it had been any bigger he wouldn't have been able to pick it up without toppling."

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As part of 3rd limited, the above statement is an opinion stated by the POV character. It might or might not be correct. Consider two different POV characters: Bob the body-builder and Fred the 98 pound weakling. Would Bob make the above statement, or would Bob attempt the impossible task because he's stubborn, then back off? Bob might think he can lift anything. Or is this something Fred might say because Fred knows his limitations? Or maybe Fred thinks he's stronger than he is so he'd try, too?

BrookieCookie777 said:

Can I ask a question like "In all the beauty of the forest, had they forgotten what lurked beyond the sky?"

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Depends. (And you'll probably get tired of me answering "it depends", too. )

Who's asking the question? If it's the POV character waxing philosophical about the nature of reality, then sure. This sounds like an epiphany reached by the character. But if it's a comment by some outside narrator, it might be jarring because the statement is coming out of left field.

One of the "classic" POV blunders: If Bob is the POV character, then saying something like "Unbeknownst to Bob, Fred was following him down the dark alley with a knife" is right out. If we're in Bob's POV, then how did he know what Fred is doing? Who's telling us what's happening? The "narrator" only is allowed to relate what Bob sees/feels/hears/thinks.

That's one of the most obvious blunders. But there are more subtle ones as well, such as:


"Bob ran his hand through his sandy blond hair. He put some lotion on his copper-toned arm."

At first, it doesn't sound like it's a problem. Sure enough Bob knows he has sandy blond hair and dark skin. But the problem is that's what what a character would normally do -- we seldom pay attention to our own features, unless we're for some reasons self-conscious. We don't say, "I put a hat on head full of dark blond hair." We'd just say, "I put a hat on."

Or if the character is preoccupied or distracted, there are things he would not notice. There may be a scratch on the car, but unless and until the character actually notices it, you can't really mention it.

Now, we talked about how much distance you can have in 3rd limited. Granted, you can describe the opulence of the building when the character enters even though normal people don't notice such details. So, in essence, you can get a bit further from your character's POV if you want, but not too much. The thing to ask yourself is: Are the details noticeable and observed by the character, or is the narrator talking here? Things such as "there was a scratch on the car" is a POV violation if the character hasn't noticed it.