Any dog experts?

dolores haze · Apr 14, 2008

I'm having an ongoing problem with my two year old black Lab and I would appreciate any advice.

He is having some very aggressive behavior around food. When he is eating no one is allowed to be near him. It's not just a little warning grumble to stay away from his food, but a hackles-up, teeth baring, snarling growl if anybody even goes onto the porch (where he eats and sleeps). He stands over his food bowl, drooling into it and displaying the aggressive behavior as described above until the person goes away.

I can't let the kids anywhere near him while he is eating. And now it's getting even worse. He now starts snarling as soon as I take his bowl of food to him. I'm literally throwing his bowl towards him and beating a hasty retreat. I close off the porch so the kids don't wander out there accidentally.

When he is done eating a completely different dog reappears - friendly, good natured and completely lovable. I've had him checked out by the vet. He is healthy, worm-free, and in excellent condition. The vet says that labs are notoriously greedy dogs, but she's never come across anything this intense. I've done some research online, but I'm finding nothing that I haven't already tried.

Does anyone have any advice for me? If I can't trust him around my children I will have to take him to the pound, and with this kind of behavior I can't imagine anyone wanting to give him a home. We love him very much. I would really appreciate any advice.

Ol' Fashioned Girl · Apr 14, 2008

I'm sorry I don't have any advice... but if we don't get much traffic here, we might think about moving this over to the 'Animals and Nature' forum. I'll keep an eye on it.

Anthony Matias · Apr 14, 2008

Does he act this way around anyone who feeds him or just you? Do/did the kids tease him when he was feeding?

Jean Marie · Apr 14, 2008

Please don't take him to the pound!

That's not lab behavior, at all.

I used to raise/train guide pups. All labs.

Change his eating area, would be my first piece of advice. He's decided that the porch is his domain, for some reason or other. Maybe, because it's enclosed, who knows. Switch it to outside, just for now. A few days anyway.

By throwing it at him, not literally, you're giving in to him and telling him he's in charge. You need to re-establish yourself as the alpha/master, once again. Do this by making him sit and waiting for his dish to be put down in front of him. If he growls or shows any other aggressive behavior, he doesn't get his food. Period. He needs to become submissive, again

Btw, he should remain in a sit until you release him.

Ideally, you should be able to remove his food at any given time, and be able to put your hand in his dish, too, w/o repercussion. I'm able to do that w/ Kola. He'll look at me oddly. What if he got into something not safe for him to eat? That's why, in case anyone's wondering.

Good luck and if you've got any other questions, feel free to ask.

reigningcatsndogs · Apr 14, 2008

our weiner dog was like this. I talked to a dog trainer. We put her (the dog, not the trainer) on a pinch collar and a short leash, and made her sit before getting her food. If she moved before getting the right word from me, she got a correction with the collar. You have to make sure when you put her into a sit that she sits. Only say it once, and then correct with the problem.

Once we had her doing that, we would put one piece of food into the dish at a time. She had to wait for permission to each each piece. If she showed any aggression, we corrected with the pinch collar again. She learned after a day or two, and soon we were able to put the food into the bowl and take it back out without her reacting. Even now, we still make her (and all the other mutts) sit while we put the bowl down, and they stay sitting until we give them the okay.

Maybe there's something in this that will help.

dolores haze · Apr 14, 2008

Anthony Matias said:
Does he act this way around anyone who feeds him or just you? Do/did the kids tease him when he was feeding?

He does it no matter who feeds him. I don't let the kids feed him any more. The kids are too scared to go anywhere near him when he is eating, so there is no teasing. He's always had this behavior in a minor way, but in the last few months it has gotten scary. We have a window looking onto the porch. If we so much as look through the window at him while he is eating he starts his behavior.

Jersey Chick · Apr 14, 2008

Is there a possibility that one of the kids (I'm sorry, I don't know their ages) or their friends may have teased the dog at some point - you know, giving a biscuit and then grabbing it back? If it's recent, I'd wonder.

We also trained our dog to sit and not move a muscle until she got the code word ("Okay" in our case). She would sit there, and literally tremble like crazy, but she learned very quickly not to move until she heard "Okay."

If you have a big chain pet store (A Mart, or a Co) - they offer dog training. Or talk to your vet to get a recommendation. My mom had one for her dog that wasn't crazy expensive, and it only took a few sessions. Talk to a pro before deciding to get rid of the dog...

dolores haze · Apr 14, 2008

Jean Marie said:
Change his eating area, would be my first piece of advice. He's decided that the porch is his domain, for some reason or other. Maybe, because it's enclosed, who knows. Switch it to outside, just for now. A few days anyway.

Yes, you're right - the porch IS his domain. Do you think I should have him eat and sleep in different places? When he is wet and muddy I put him on the porch until he is dry enough for inside. I can see why he would think of it as "his." I fed him outside every day last week, and stood within three feet of him. He was VERY nervous, with hackles raised, very tense body language. If I got any closer he would stop eating, and start snarling. Do you think I should keep going with this for a longer period of time? Do you think I should change around the places where he is fed? Eg - everywhere except the porch?

By throwing it at him, not literally, you're giving in to him and telling him he's in charge. You need to re-establish yourself as the alpha/master, once again. Do this by making him sit and waiting for his dish to be put down in front of him. If he growls or shows any other aggressive behavior, he doesn't get his food. Period. He needs to become submissive, again

Witholding or taking away his food was the first thing I tried, but - honestly - it just seemed to increase his anxiety around food, which led to the more aggressive behavior. He is submissive to me in every way EXCEPT around food.

Btw, he should remain in a sit until you release him.

Incidentally, he is very smart. Training him was easy. He sits, comes, stays, etc, whenever he is told to. It is just around food that he becomes like this. It's like a different dog entirely.

Ideally, you should be able to remove his food at any given time, and be able to put your hand in his dish, too, w/o repercussion. I'm able to do that w/ Kola. He'll look at me oddly. What if he got into something not safe for him to eat? That's why, in case anyone's wondering.

At this point I would absolutely NOT put my hand anywhere near his food, but you're right - I should be able to do that.

Thanks so much for your advice!

Little Red Barn · Apr 14, 2008

Hmm, you say you took to the vet? What kind of blood work up did they do?

Not known to be at the time but when my dog started doing this like yours, she was sick.

And it took a second trip to the vet to find out.

From someone who has adopted pound puppies, I sure hope your dog doesn't end up there.

Good luck!

dolores haze · Apr 14, 2008

reigningcatsndogs said:
our weiner dog was like this. I talked to a dog trainer. We put her (the dog, not the trainer) on a pinch collar and a short leash, and made her sit before getting her food. If she moved before getting the right word from me, she got a correction with the collar. You have to make sure when you put her into a sit that she sits. Only say it once, and then correct with the problem.

I'm not sure what a pinch collar is. I'll look into it.

My dog is about 100lbs. I'm honestly a little nervous about being so close to him and his food at the same time.

Thanks so much for the advice!

paprikapink · Apr 14, 2008

I'm thinking at this point it's fairly irrelevant whether a kid teased him or not, isn't it?

Granted, a big piece of all dog training is person training...you want to train the kids to be good masters though, not that they need to kow-tow to Doggums.

How is he if he is just getting a treat? If even a little nibble brings on aggression, you'd have to do this when the kids aren't around, but ideally you'd be able to gradually work through it -- don't give him a bowl of food at all. Give him the same amount of food you usually do, but every single kibble has to be earned, one at a time. Make him earn every privilege in life. He has to sit and let you go through the door before he goes through, then he can have a treat. He has to sit and wait till you say okay before he can get on the furniture (if you allow crazy things like that ;-) ) he doesn't even need a treat after that, getting on the couch is treat enough. He has to sit and be mellow before every walk, etc. and so on.

Here's a site that looks like it has lots of great resources.

Jean Marie · Apr 14, 2008

dolores haze said:
Yes, you're right - the porch IS his domain. Do you think I should have him eat and sleep in different places? When he is wet and muddy I put him on the porch until he is dry enough for inside. I can see why he would think of it as "his." I fed him outside every day last week, and stood within three feet of him. He was VERY nervous, with hackles raised, very tense body language. If I got any closer he would stop eating, and start snarling. Do you think I should keep going with this for a longer period of time? Do you think I should change around the places where he is fed? Eg - everywhere except the porch?
Thanks so much for your advice!

You're welcome!

Keep his sleeping area the same, only change his eating spot. And keep that the same once you've picked it.

Put him in a sit/stay before you put his food down and he has to hold it until you release him. Pick a word...okay, like someone suggested. If you have to hold him on a short lead, do it. Whatever's necessary. Mary suggested that and she's correct.

This isn't about whether or not he likes it, this is about you not taking him to the pound and giving up on him. If he's smart, like you say, he'll learn.

I'm interested in knowing why/when this behavior began. Something initiated it, this isn't typical lab behavior, at all. Even w/ teasing, it isn't. Maybe, his teeth are bothering him? It's possible. Grabbing at straws, here. Has he had a dental exam, recently?

Jean Marie · Apr 14, 2008

dolores haze said:
I'm not sure what a pinch collar is. I'll look into it.

My dog is about 100lbs. I'm honestly a little nervous about being so close to him and his food at the same time.

Thanks so much for the advice!

A choke collar or a martingale collar, which is also called a premier collar. It's a soft choke collar and allows you to give a quick correction.

reigningcatsndogs · Apr 14, 2008

dolores haze said:
I'm not sure what a pinch collar is. I'll look into it.

My dog is about 100lbs. I'm honestly a little nervous about being so close to him and his food at the same time.

Thanks so much for the advice!

A pinch collar looks much scarier than it is. It's used for training, especially where control is an issue. It imitates a corrective nip by the mother. You use it only for training purposes.

When our trainer pulled one out, I was horrified. But she put it on my wrist and she tugged on it, and it doesn't hurt. There is nothing sharp on it at all. I asked my niece, who is a vet tech, and she said they use them all the time for training, and there is no problem with them. My niece's dog is about 100 lbs as well, and she used one to train him. It worked like a charm.

dolores haze · Apr 14, 2008

Jersey Chick said:
Is there a possibility that one of the kids (I'm sorry, I don't know their ages) or their friends may have teased the dog at some point - you know, giving a biscuit and then grabbing it back? If it's recent, I'd wonder.

It's not recent. It started when he was much younger. A dog trainer advised me to nip it in the bud by taking away his food if he growled. I really think it made it worse. Radar started getting very nervous around feeding time, and it's gradually gotten worse and worse. The closest the kids got to teasing him was that they would tattle on him if he growled, and then I would come along, correct him, remove his food, etc.

Thanks so much. I've spoken to two professional dog trainers over the phone. I think I'll try having one come to the house for a consultation. Thanks so much for the advice.

sunna · Apr 14, 2008

I'll second the relocation advice - it sounds like he's food guarding, in which case it may just be the bowl he conceives of as "his", but a change of setting can help break him out of it. You might want to think about buying a different bowl too, if this is an old and familiar one.

The sitting thing is a good idea. I did this with one of my dad's dogs a while ago, though not as extreme a case as yours sounds! After we got him a new bowl I'd put it in front of him with no food in it, and walk across the room with the food in a little bag. Once he figured out that I had the food, he had to come to me, sit and lay down, after which I put a small handful in front of him. Rise & repeat for whole bag. The laying down part was important, because it's one of the more submissive postures. After about 5 days we moved to me putting a handful in the bowl after he laid down, one at a time...

Needless to say, you have to have some time on your hands for this method.

But it's important that
a) he doesn't feel threatened, and
b) he remembers that you're the boss, and that he has no "territory" to guard here - it's all yours, food included.

If you're really worried about getting bitten, so much so that having your hand anywhere near him sounds crazy, you might want to talk to a trainer before trying anything like this. But don't give him up! - this really is fixable behavior in most cases. It's just instinct. Deflect or distract and retrain, and he'll be fine.

Good luck!

Jean Marie · Apr 14, 2008

Another trick you can use is, when he starts to growl, pull him away from his food, w/ his leash, and circle him, tight circles. It will make you both a bit dizzy, but it will refocus him.

Bring him back to his bowl, put him into a sit, release him and allow him to continue to eat. He'll grow tired of his puppy push ups and eventually quit it.

Retraining is work, but well worth it.

Don Allen · Apr 14, 2008

My experiance with bad eating behavior is that it has somehow been taught into the dog and can be taught out of the dog. A lady asked me to help her with a golden lab who kept snapping whenever she gave him food by hand, well I went to her house and found out that she was afraid to feed him properly which is to hold the food in the palm of your hand where he can see it and take it gently. What she was doing was throwing the food at his face and she taught him to snap at the food in the air. The first thing I did was put my hand in the dogs mouth, sounds risky but I've done it for 20 years now with countless dogs and have never been bit, I pull gently on the tops and bottoms of the front teeth and let the dog lick and slober over my hand until he's comfortable with me.
then we start re-educating the dog to what is expected. My guess is that either your kids or the neigborhood darlings have teased the dog and taught him this behavior. The suggestion above using the leash is a good one, and so is changing where he eats and how you feed him, you can never allow him to Alpha over his food or one day you may have to have him destroyed because he will attack a child if threatened. I would feed him by hand for a while a few times a day without a bowl, and without a presentation of any kind, so he didn't see the food coming and see how that works.

dolores haze · Apr 14, 2008

kimmi said:
Hmm, you say you took to the vet? What kind of blood work up did they do?

Not known to be at the time but when my dog started doing this like yours, she was sick.

And it took a second trip to the vet to find out.

From someone who has adopted pound puppies, I sure hope your dog doesn't end up there.

Good luck!

I really don't want to take him to the pound, but I do need to correct this problem before it goes any further. With summer coming I'm going to be having visitors and kids popping in all the time. If the behavior continues to get worse, then the next step is biting. I'm not gonna go there.

The vet did a full exam, checked him out all over, but didn't do any blood work. What was wrong with your dog?

Radar is such a lovable boy, that it took a lot of talking to convince her to take me seriously. It's hard for me to believe that he could be two such different dogs.

Thanks for your help!

dolores haze · Apr 14, 2008

paprikapink said:
How is he if he is just getting a treat?

Interesting! If I give him a treat from my hand he is politeness itself. Takes it gently, says thank you with a wag of the tail. Hmmm. So it's not the food itself?

Here's a site that looks like it has lots of great resources.[/

Thanks! I've bookmarked it.

dolores haze · Apr 14, 2008

sunna said:
I'll second the relocation advice - it sounds like he's food guarding, in which case it may just be the bowl he conceives of as "his", but a change of setting can help break him out of it. You might want to think about buying a different bowl too, if this is an old and familiar one.

I'll do both! New bowl and new location.

The sitting thing is a good idea. I did this with one of my dad's dogs a while ago, though not as extreme a case as yours sounds! After we got him a new bowl I'd put it in front of him with no food in it, and walk across the room with the food in a little bag. Once he figured out that I had the food, he had to come to me, sit and lay down, after which I put a small handful in front of him. Rise & repeat for whole bag. The laying down part was important, because it's one of the more submissive postures. After about 5 days we moved to me putting a handful in the bowl after he laid down, one at a time...

I don't know - he's already so freaked out about food. I don't want to make it even worse. Can dogs have eating disorders, do you know?

Needless to say, you have to have some time on your hands for this method. But it's important that
a) he doesn't feel threatened, and
b) he remembers that you're the boss, and that he has no "territory" to guard here - it's all yours, food included.

I'll make the time. I want to be able to keep him, and keep my family safe, too.

Thank you so much!

dolores haze · Apr 14, 2008

Don Allen said:
My experiance with bad eating behavior is that it has somehow been taught into the dog and can be taught out of the dog. A lady asked me to help her with a golden lab who kept snapping whenever she gave him food by hand, well I went to her house and found out that she was afraid to feed him properly which is to hold the food in the palm of your hand where he can see it and take it gently. What she was doing was throwing the food at his face and she taught him to snap at the food in the air. The first thing I did was put my hand in the dogs mouth, sounds risky but I've done it for 20 years now with countless dogs and have never been bit, I pull gently on the tops and bottoms of the front teeth and let the dog lick and slober over my hand until he's comfortable with me.
then we start re-educating the dog to what is expected. My guess is that either your kids or the neigborhood darlings have teased the dog and taught him this behavior. The suggestion above using the leash is a good one, and so is changing where he eats and how you feed him, you can never allow him to Alpha over his food or one day you may have to have him destroyed because he will attack a child if threatened. I would feed him by hand for a while a few times a day without a bowl, and without a presentation of any kind, so he didn't see the food coming and see how that works.

Don, thank you so much for understanding my fear that he will harm someone.

I just took Radar into the kitchen (which he knows is MY territory), and fed him his meal a few pieces of kibble at a time on the palm of my hand. We had no problems whatsoever! He didn't turn into Cujo; there was no stress from him, no fear from me. This was the best feeding experience we have EVER had together! I know that this is not behavior solved, but it's a start. Now I know we can fix this! And I've had excellent advice from everyone on how to go about it.

I want to reiterate that this behavior was NOT caused by teasing kids. We don't have any neighbours, and I have supervised everything to do with this dog. I caused this problem by sticking to advice that I knew wasn't working for this dog. I took a troublesome behavior and made it into something dangerous. Probably the advice was good - but not for this particular dog, and I should have abandoned it when I saw it wasn't working.

Thank you all so very, very much. I should have asked you guys months ago! I feel like such a fool for not doing it sooner. Just from this one positive experience I can safely say that you guys have saved this dog from the pound. I so badly needed a little bit of hope. Thank you!!!!!!!

Jean Marie · Apr 14, 2008

Yay for Radar and Dolores

Anthony Matias · Apr 14, 2008

That's awesome DH!

sunna · Apr 14, 2008

Yay for you and for Radar! He sounds like he's a good dog, just a wee bit confused. Lucky for him he's got you to help.

Any dog experts?

international guttersnipe

Hand? What hand?

calm waters ahead

Too sad for words.

international guttersnipe

Up all night to get Loki

international guttersnipe

haz own threads

international guttersnipe

Bored fanatic

calm waters ahead

calm waters ahead

Too sad for words.

international guttersnipe

calm waters ahead

Seeking a Sanctuary of Intelligence

international guttersnipe

international guttersnipe

international guttersnipe

international guttersnipe

calm waters ahead