Frustrated by SF's treatment of clones

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Tburger

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OK. So I just finished a sci-fi novel, which I wrote in part because I'm tired of reading about certain things when it comes to genetic engineering/clones in military sci-fi. A lot of the books out there (Star War series, Stephen L Kent's books, etc.) make the following assumptions about clones:

1. You can "program" them (not to disobey orders, to obey catch-phrase commands, etc. - like a Manchurian Candidate type scenario)
2. They're all identical, but they have been programmed (a) not to recognize that they look like the others (b) to think they're really humans, but everyone else wround them is a clone.
3. They are programmed to die if they realize they're a clone.

And there are more but I'm tired.

I have a PhD and some background in complex biotech, and I find it hard to swallow a future in which these things are plausible. WOuldn't a bunch of clones get together in the barracks and start talking about how they're the only human and the rest are clones? Then wouldn't the others say, "hold on, I'm not a clone, you are!" At that point, wouldn't they all keel over dead? How do you "program" someone to die when they think something?

Look, I'm biased. There is only so much you can do to make a military sci-fi novel different from the others; the principles of infantry combat are pretty much the same: kill the enemy while trying not to get killed. But I tried to incorporate the following in my novel to set it apart from what has been done:

1. Clones know they're clones; they can see themselves in a mirror!
2. Clones are human with some modifications to make them (a) more tolerant of CBW environments, (b) resistant to infection, and (c) able to surivive in wider temperature ranges.
3. Clones are force fed a combination of pseudo-religion and a controlled upbringing to make assault a thing to crave, not fear.
4. Clones are human. Despite being brainwashed like described in point 3 above, combat breeds in them a desire to survive; it's instinct
5. Clones need drugs at some point to maintain their sanity in the face of being used as fodder.
6. Clones break within a couple of years on the line and therefore have to be executed by the replacements at a certain age (very Blade-Runneresque, I know - but I think Ridley Scott got it right.)

I'm getting rejections to queries along the lines of "this has been done before." Despite that my character treatment, plot, etc. is totally unique. I crafted to make my query point out the differences between my work and others, but I'm up against the system here; it's just the way it works. Live and learn; next time I won't even try to do something that "has already been done."

So it's getting to be time for me to pack this one away and move on to finish my next book, but AAARRRRGHHH!!!!

Thoughts?
 

loquax

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It's a difficult one. I think you slightly underestimate most people's view on cloning; of course Star Wars isn't realistic, of course if you're human you'll have emotions and you'll realise you're a clone. But seeing as we're normally in a very fantastical setting, with laser guns and aliens, we let these things slide for the sake of story. After all, story trumps everything.

As you're writing SF, opposed to sci-fi, I'd like to know your reasons for having cloned soldiers in the first place. The concept of "clone soldiers", to me, actually seems just as fantastical as the three points you listed at the top of your post. Why, in a future of nuclear weapons, do we need such a vast amount of perfect soldiers? Surely humans are the worst fighters; so fleshy and useless and unpredictable. And would they really be that much better than normal, non-cloned soldiers? It would cost billions to create an army of clones. Who's to say that at that point in the future when such an epic concept becomes cost efficient, we won't also have the ability to control minds through genetics?

I'm sure you have answers to all of these questions, but at the end of the day we all skate a very fine line between realistic and unbelievable. My only real piece of advice would be to push your story as opposed to your concept. What do these soldiers get up to? Is the whole cloning thing vital to the story? "SF War" is actually a mini-genre of its own, so your novel has a place. When selling, focus on character interactions, goals and hinderances. If these are ace, there's absolutely no reason why an agent wouldn't want to take you on board.

Hope that helped, and don't give up!
 

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You might take a look at C. J. Cherryh's books, particularly Cyteen.
 

kullervo

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It's a tricky thing. Because those of us who really do follow science know a successful human clone would be nothing more than a human being with the same nuclear genetic material as another human being. He or she may have different mitochondrial genetic material, depending on the cloning technique used (nuclear transplant would do this), but for the most part a clone should be no different than an identical twin.

Animal clones are not yet perfect, and might never be. There are commonly genetic instabilities or damage to a clone. This tend to express itself in failure of fetal development or in shortened lifespans for the live-born animal.

That is the science fiction reader you are dealing with. I am not a scientist; I work in no scientific field. But the burden is on the science fiction author to be able to stand toe-to-toe with experts in the field. If I catch errors, you've lost me. Yes, science can be deliberately enterprised with explanation, but if I think it's just the author making a mistake, that book is getting tossed.
 

Higgins

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It's a tricky thing. Because those of us who really do follow science know a successful human clone would be nothing more than a human being with the same nuclear genetic material as another human being. He or she may have different mitochondrial genetic material, depending on the cloning technique used (nuclear transplant would do this), but for the most part a clone should be no different than an identical twin.

Animal clones are not yet perfect, and might never be. There are commonly genetic instabilities or damage to a clone. This tend to express itself in failure of fetal development or in shortened lifespans for the live-born animal.

That is the science fiction reader you are dealing with. I am not a scientist; I work in no scientific field. But the burden is on the science fiction author to be able to stand toe-to-toe with experts in the field. If I catch errors, you've lost me. Yes, science can be deliberately enterprised with explanation, but if I think it's just the author making a mistake, that book is getting tossed.

aren't identical twins clones? Why can't they be programmed? Which one is the real person?

I agree the "clone" thing is mostly absurdly poorly thought out.
 

benbradley

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1. Clones know they're clones; they can see themselves in a mirror!
People can be 'programmed' to know a lot of things that ain't so. This of course has nothing to do with cloning. Read up on cults. For a quick how-to (without much explanation as to why it works), see the short video "Mind Control Made Easy."
2. Clones are human with some modifications to make them (a) more tolerant of CBW environments, (b) resistant to infection, and (c) able to surivive in wider temperature ranges.
I have a big question of how such modifications would be done, especially with current science, but that may be just me, wanting "hard" science fiction.
If you're going to clone someone, it behooves you to find the human that most matches the caracteristics you want. For military use this would probably things like physical strength and muscle development. The scary thing about this is if any of them escape into the wild they'll run for Governor of California.:D
3. Clones are force fed a combination of pseudo-religion and a controlled upbringing to make assault a thing to crave, not fear.
4. Clones are human. Despite being brainwashed like described in point 3 above, combat breeds in them a desire to survive; it's instinct
5. Clones need drugs at some point to maintain their sanity in the face of being used as fodder.
I've visited a Holocaust exhibit at the Bremen Museum in Atlanta. One of the signs discusses guns being used to kill people before the gas chambers were built, and how this was an "inefficient" means of killing. The Nazi German soldiers had serious problems with shooting and killing defenseless women and children, even though they were given all the alcohol and drugs they wanted to soothe their emotional pain.

On the other hand, ask any US soldier in Iraq how he feels about being used as fodder, and he's likely to correct you, saying how proud he is to serve his country. This sort of programming, with keywords such as "pride" and 'honor," has always been part of the military, and with good reason - it works. There's of course a good bit of overlap between military training and cult programming.
6. Clones break within a couple of years on the line and therefore have to be executed by the replacements at a certain age (very Blade-Runneresque, I know - but I think Ridley Scott got it right.)

I'm getting rejections to queries along the lines of "this has been done before." Despite that my character treatment, plot, etc. is totally unique. I crafted to make my query point out the differences between my work and others, but I'm up against the system here; it's just the way it works. Live and learn; next time I won't even try to do something that "has already been done."

So it's getting to be time for me to pack this one away and move on to finish my next book, but AAARRRRGHHH!!!!

Thoughts?
It seems you have the "programming" and stuff right (though still, reading up on cults may be instructive). Perhaps your query letter needs tweaking? There's a forum on AW for that.

Also, I'm wondering if (a near-total rewrite is coming...) you might simply give up on the idea of clones (since much or most of what you do to them is psychological and has nothing to do with cloning anyway). Have the soldiers be "recruited" (my euphemism) from the top 1 or 0.1 percent of high school students (selected by their physical strength, or how much they improve in weight-training class, that sort of thing), and rather than them being drafted or disappearing, fake their deaths in drunk-driving accidents (there's an example in Crichton's "State of Fear") so no one tries to go looking for them.

Perhaps have a background story of work being done on cloning, and there's even a blood sample of a certain Governor, an extra sample taken by a nurse who was doing otherwise-legitimate work at the doctors office.
 

Higgins

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Now there's an idea!


What if you could genetically engineer a person with exactly the charateristics you wanted? Wouldn't they still have to be born like
anyone else and grow up and be educated and so on?

Isn't it a lot easier just to get applicants who at least can walk and talk
at this point? I mean rather than some very promising embryos?
 

dirtsider

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If you could get your hands on some copies of the show Space: Above and Beyond, it deals with some of the issues you seem to be looking at for your clones. Specifically, the In Vitros (aka Tanks).

But I'm curious - what are you working on in your story? The psychological aspect of war, of the clones?
 

kullervo

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A perfect clone would not know they were a clone unless they were told. And even then they would have to be convinced. They would be born as everyone else is, grow as everyone else does, and need education. They would carry no information or experience from the source person. They would be a completely normal baby, exactly as the person from whom they were cloned once was. The person from whom they were cloned would simply be that much older. Imagine having a delayed identical twin. If the person from whom the clone was made were much closer, it is possible that the clone would never realize it had been done. Even the source person might not know if the sample were taken without their knowledge.
 

loquax

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Kullervo, I think we're assuming the clones grow up together, seeing as they're clone soldiers and all.
 

Tburger

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Wow - some great input here. I'll try and just say a bit about what I'm doing.

1. I focus on the psychological impact of being a cloned/genetically engineered soldier.
2. They are first generation - the first batch and have flaws.
3. They know they are clones; I just don't see any reason to hide this from them, or any reason for them not to figure it out over time, especially since they have contact with real "humans" on a regular basis
4. You can genetically engineer to create a resistance to CBW environment; insert a DNA sequence that produces enzymes to convert CW agents to harmless products, for example. This is actually a scientific concept under study now - nothing new.
5. It makes perfect sense to create a cloned army and I'll just make one point. Powerful people (senators, etc.) in general don't like their children being sent off to war, today's equipment costs millions of dollars and still we throw it into the mix - cloned/engineered soldiers are nothing more than equipment, etc.
6. The key is nurture, not nature. Perhaps I misunderstood the "programming" aspect of the books I've read (Stephen Kent, etc.), but to me it seems like the programming involves a literal biochemical program, not brainwashing. I am totally in favor of brainwashing in the context of clones; I use it in my story!!!! That's nurture, baby.

Sorry if I didn't respond to some of the other points and thanks for taking the time to read this!
 
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loquax

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So rather than an "army", they're more of an experimental elite-squad?
 

sassandgroove

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Could it be you just need to rewrite your query? There's a section in SYW where you can post queries for help. Or you could even post a chapter of your story for crit, too.
 

MattW

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I can definitely see the SF accountants crunching the numbers and proving clone soldiers are cheaper and just as effective a AI drones.

There's some political drama for you.
 

loquax

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I reckon this is the future of warfare. I'd hate to be a up against these bad boys (that is, if they toted machine guns...)
 

Ruv Draba

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The clone-focused stories I've read are normally stories about defining humanity, human rights, and individuality. In this space, there are some messages that we see time and time again, namely:
  • Thinking you're individual doesn't make you so;
  • Not being individual or unique doesn't make you feel less human;
  • Human feelings don't necessarily entitle you to human rights;
  • When your biological design is patented, you quickly lose civil rights;
  • When your body and mind are easy to duplicate, you quickly become expendable;
  • When your body and mind can be reproduced, death and rights to life become hard to define.
We've had clone stories for forty years or more, and I believe that these messages no longer shock or horrify. I haven't read your work TB, so I don't know what's in it, but I don't believe that we've run out of mileage on clone stories yet. I just think that we need to avoid the common messages. I think that as authors, we need to try and relate clones to different human concerns in different ways. Some examples (and maybe some of these have been done before, but I'm just spinning ideas here) might include:

Justice: When a clone murderer is dead, but several of its 'descendants' have memories of the deed and no remorse, are they culpable for the crime?

Love: What do you do if you and six of your clone siblings all fall in love with the same uncloned person at roughly the same time?

Conflict: What happens when opposite sides in the same war each use the same model of clone?

Religion: Do clones all share the same soul, or are the souls all different? What happens to one clone soul when another clone commits a sin? What happens to a clone soul after one body dies?

Theoretically, a clone story might cover several such questions and not have to harp on the same tired messages.

It may be worthwhile to note too, that these ideas are not plot ideas or premise ideas so much as character arc ideas. Character arcs are where your story's themes lie, and I believe that the key to making a story feel different is to give it different themes from any other story with a similar premise. Differentiating plot alone may not be enough if your themes are the same as other stories.

Hope this may help, encourage, stimulate etc...
 
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Pthom

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Yanno, guys? This is a very cool thread. But it has little ground in scientific fact. So I'm relocating it to the main SF/F forum.

And do carry on with it.

One of my stories deals with clones, and non-clones, but all of whom are created invitro (only difference between an invitro clone and an invitro non-clone is the arrangement of genetic material, eh?).
 

Smiling Ted

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I have a PhD and some background in complex biotech, and I find it hard to swallow a future in which these things are plausible. WOuldn't a bunch of clones get together in the barracks and start talking about how they're the only human and the rest are clones? Then wouldn't the others say, "hold on, I'm not a clone, you are!" At that point, wouldn't they all keel over dead? How do you "program" someone to die when they think something?

I'm getting rejections to queries along the lines of "this has been done before." Despite that my character treatment, plot, etc. is totally unique. I crafted to make my query point out the differences between my work and others, but I'm up against the system here; it's just the way it works. Live and learn; next time I won't even try to do something that "has already been done."

At the risk of bringing this thread back to the OP...TBurger, did you mention your PhD and biotech background in your query? If you didn't, you could be missing out on a valuable platform.
 

Maryn

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Every time I hit New Posts and see this subject line, I think, What, San Francisco isn't clone-friendly?

It worries me, because I've read most of the messages here and still react the same "duh" way when I see the subject line yet again.

Carry on.

Maryn, who thought someone might be amused
 
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