Can a Christian lose his/her salvation?

bluntforcetrauma said:

Oh, I had a bunch of well-meaning Christians try convince me that the Gift could be lost or taken away. I struggled with that for years. Today I am convinced that His salvation is everlasting. He said 'It is finished.' What more shall I add to measure up? Nothing.

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I've had that conversation as well. There are very convincing arguments, but I always fall back on Hebrews 13:5b: "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Then they respond with the idea that you can walk away from God. At that point, I ask them to stand and I walk up to them. Then I say, "Okay, walk away from me." When they do, I follow. When they stop, I am still next to them and I say, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

My friend Derek has found and lost Christ nine or ten times now.

Is this common?

There are lots and lots of theological arguments and Scriptural references that can be pulled out for this topic, but I think the overall idea is pretty simple. After you've lived your life, does God look at you and say "Yeah, that's my kid"?

Lots of kids wander through my house. I have neices and nephews. I have friends with kids. But there are only four people I look at and say "Yeah, that's my kid." They truly belong to me. They look like me. They love me. They call me Dad and they mean it. Sure, there were times when they went away or rebelled or even broke my heart, but in the end, they're mine.

It's kind of an over-simplified analogy, but I think that's the gist of it. People play all sorts of games with "how bad can you be and still be saved" or "can you lose your salvation if you deny Christ". I don't think it's like a lightswitch that gets flipped off and on. Because here's the thing - nobody's fooling God. He knows the heart and he knows which ones are really His and which ones are just neighborhood kids eating from his fridge. We fool each other, but God doesn't play our same silly games.

I also firmly believe God wants everyone to be His kids and to have that full, loving relationship. He's the good Dad. He'll adopt but he won't kidnap.

That's what I see in Scripture anyway.

This is an interesting question. Like Lily I was raised Roman Catholic. (I'm not a theologian, but here's my take.) Their belief was that anyone could reject slavation at any time. That is, a decision to turn to a sinful lifestyle will separate you from God. He's always there beside you waiting for you to come back, but the first step is up to you. Should you die in this sinful state, you would not be saved.

I've had Protestants tell me once saved, always saved. My question is, "OK. So you mean I can be saved as a twelve year old and then as an adult do all sorts of heinous things and God doesn't care?" They'll tell me that a person who does that never was "saved" to begin with.

Sounds to me like they're saying the same things the Catholics do with different words. Personally, I DO NOT believe that salavtion is guaranteed until you step through those pearly gates. The devil never ceases to tempt and try to pull you away. True, Christ said, "No one can take them from my hand." He'll give you all the grace and strength you need to resist temptation, however, if you turn to Jesus and say, "I want to go sin now." You have a free will; He won't stop you.

Well, I don't know what's in anyone's heart. Only God does. I don't know if Derek has ever truly found Christ. No one does. I believe it's possible to go through the motions without ever really finding Him. I also think its possible to come to Christ, accept him as the Lord of your life, and sometime later feel very far away from him.

I do know that the Bible says he will never leave us or forsake us. To me, that says even if you try to walk away, he's always there by you. Living your life by feelings can often lead to much wider swings in your spiritual life. That's why I cling to the Word.

Depends on the branch of Christianity. Lutherans believe you can lose it. Calvinists believe that once professed, your salvation is eternal and unchanging no matter what you do. My aunt is in some sort of free-form Presbyterianism, and so long as you apologize to Jesus for your actions, you're forgiven. Yes, she abuses the privilege.

When my mother cared for her mother-in-law (this aunt's mother) during the final years of my grandmother's life, my aunt (who rarely visited) asked "Why do you bother? You're not a Christian."

Ugh.

no matter what anyone says - it's between you and the Big Guy.

This is a great topic. I've always been curious about this and have never found a good definitive answer. My church's official opinion is yes, you can lose your salvation, but... well, I guess maybe I just don't want to accept that.

I was saved at 15, but I made the decision to turn my back on God. Not a spur-of-the-moment rebellion but a gradual ebbing away until I just knew I was gone.

I truly felt He sought me the whole time I chose to live away from Him. Lightning hit me again about ten years ago and I knew I was back. I knew He had been waiting for me and wooing me.

It scares me silly to think of what if I had died during those horrible years? There is someone close to me who seems to be in the same period as that, and this person is dying. I am desperate, but I don't know what to say (they won't talk about it, or listen to it) or do, besides pray. I wonder what will happen?

bluntforcetrauma said:

Moderator's Note: The first four posts were moved from another thread. Blungforcetrauma did not post this with the intention of starting a thread, but his was the most convenient starting point.

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Oh, I had a bunch of well-meaning Christians try convince me that the Gift could be lost or taken away. I struggled with that for years. Today I am convinced that His salvation is everlasting. He said 'It is finished.' What more shall I add to measure up? Nothing.

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Roger J Carlson said:

I've had that conversation as well. There are very convincing arguments, but I always fall back on Hebrews 13:5b: "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Then they respond with the idea that you can walk away from God. At that point, I ask them to stand and I walk up to them. Then I say, "Okay, walk away from me." When they do, I follow. When they stop, I am still next to them and I say, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Click to expand...

III said:

There are lots and lots of theological arguments and Scriptural references that can be pulled out for this topic, but I think the overall idea is pretty simple. After you've lived your life, does God look at you and say "Yeah, that's my kid"?

Lots of kids wander through my house. I have neices and nephews. I have friends with kids. But there are only four people I look at and say "Yeah, that's my kid." They truly belong to me. They look like me. They love me. They call me Dad and they mean it. Sure, there were times when they went away or rebelled or even broke my heart, but in the end, they're mine.

It's kind of an over-simplified analogy, but I think that's the gist of it. People play all sorts of games with "how bad can you be and still be saved" or "can you lose your salvation if you deny Christ". I don't think it's like a lightswitch that gets flipped off and on. Because here's the thing - nobody's fooling God. He knows the heart and he knows which ones are really His and which ones are just neighborhood kids eating from his fridge. We fool each other, but God doesn't play our same silly games.

I also firmly believe God wants everyone to be His kids and to have that full, loving relationship. He's the good Dad. He'll adopt but he won't kidnap.

That's what I see in Scripture anyway.

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Roger J Carlson said:

Well, I don't know what's in anyone's heart. Only God does. I don't know if Derek has ever truly found Christ. No one does. I believe it's possible to go through the motions without ever really finding Him. I also think its possible to come to Christ, accept him as the Lord of your life, and sometime later feel very far away from him.

I do know that the Bible says he will never leave us or forsake us. To me, that says even if you try to walk away, he's always there by you. Living your life by feelings can often lead to much wider swings in your spiritual life. That's why I cling to the Word.

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I'm sure all you actual Christians will be just fine. God is your buddy.
As a Christian-in-name-only I think the Big Guy has His Very Own Inexhaustable Font of Terrifying Otherness and He may just Blast me any time for His Own Divine Reasons.

But that's just me.

Seek, and ye shall find...

I think the idea is to work towards Salvation. Do not worry so much about keeping something only God can give. I always think of it as a gift waiting for me to open. All I have to do is get that camel through the eye of a needle.

Short answer IMHO is No, you can't lose something you may not yet have.

Higgins said:

I'm sure all you actual Christians will be just fine. God is your buddy.
As a Christian-in-name-only I think the Big Guy has His Very Own Inexhaustable Font of Terrifying Otherness and He may just Blast me any time for His Own Divine Reasons.

But that's just me.

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Just keep changing your username Sok.... er, Higgins.

From John 6:

35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"

43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[d] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

bluntforcetrauma said:

I'm afraid of starting a flame war here, so I must choose carefully my words. How many times did the Lord die on the cross? My faith is in Him, not me.

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Amen.

I believe that you cannot lose your salvation once you have it and that no one can really know if another person is actually saved. i.e. If someone tells me that they are saved I believe them. Of course if someone tells me they are not saved then I believe them too.

I don't think we can go around and say that person is not really saved because they are doing X action. That person is saved because they are doing X action. It is between the person and God and those two are the only ones who know if they are really saved or not.

This is a really good discussion.

From John 13 (I'm just posting relevant references as they come to mind.)

2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus. 3Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 4so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

6He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?"

7Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."

8"No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet."
Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."

9"Then, Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!"

10Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

Derek's jaunts back to Christianity are always accompanied by visions and dreams.

His trips back to his little inner hell are usually sent escorts of odd music, video games, and fights with his girlfriend.

I was honestly just asking if it was common, though--not probing for a deeper meaning. I'm worried about him.

Bartholomew said:

Derek's jaunts back to Christianity are always accompanied by visions and dreams.

His trips back to his little inner hell are usually sent escorts of odd music, video games, and fights with his girlfriend.

I was honestly just asking if it was common, though--not probing for a deeper meaning. I'm worried about him.

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While it is common for a Christian's spritual life to have peaks and valleys, I don't think what Derek is going through is common. While I'm certainly not a mental health professional, it sounds like he is bipolar. I have known bipolar Christians who have had such wild swings in their faith. In the end, I believe God is faithful and will look at the heart, even if the mind is troubled.

I find that discussion of this issue tends to divide Christians and make enemies, not unite and make friends. Wesley and Whitfield were so divided on this that they broke fellowship, with Whitfield even saying that Wesley preached a different gospel than he did. If this issue can break fellowship between the main evangelists behind the 18th century English revival and the 18th century American revival, why do we want to discuss it? As other have said, it does not truly bear on whether one is saved. That is an issue between God and the individual.

When we lived in Saudi Arabia, we attended a large, underground, ecumenical Protestant church. Doctrinal issues that would divide were not discussed, as a matter of policy and as a choice, so as not to divide. When we lived in Kuwait, we attended a large, open, ecumenical Protestant church (that was actually attached in name to a denomination). Again, they refused to discuss divisive issues. While it was bad enough that the Catholic/Orthodox-to-Protestant issues divided the Christian community, how much worse would it have been if we had been divided over discussing once saved, always saved?

So, with this being an ecumenical community, and with nominal and non-Christians popping in from time to time to observe our behavior, I will not take part in this debate. That said, I commend everyone who has commented previously for the civility of the discussion.

Best Regards,
NDG

Bartholomew said:

Derek's jaunts back to Christianity are always accompanied by visions and dreams.

His trips back to his little inner hell are usually sent escorts of odd music, video games, and fights with his girlfriend.

I was honestly just asking if it was common, though--not probing for a deeper meaning. I'm worried about him.

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For a teenager, I'd say it's pretty common. Early twenties, mmmm, that's when it's time to start stabilizing your life (imo). Like Roger said, it could be a psychological / chemical thing, but I know plenty of early-20's guys who are just like your friend.

I think what really makes a difference in guys that age is having an older guy to mentor them and help them get a good perspective on life. It can save a lot of floundering about, that's for sure.

May I offer a hypothetical situation: Let's assume a saved man, a child of God, whose name is written in The Lamb's Book Of Life, is driving thru an apartment complex. He notices a beautiful female washing her car, attired in white short shorts. (Lord help us!)
Prolonged eye contact followed by a come- hither smile does occur. I don't think I need to say more.
Anyway, this man is greeted by an upset spouse while trying to make a hasty exit. The husband has a long-barreled, bad 44 and knows how to use it. If our Christian brother had died in traffic, prior to his rendevous, he would have been with God. Some might respond to his need for repentence. Had he been given 10 to 15 more minutes that is probably what he would have done. Is this lack of a few minutes going to result in his eternal damnation? Our unseen enemy not only knows our weakness, he is able to place temptation in our path. Surely God takes this into account. And yes, He gives us a way to overcome temptation but sometimes we do fail. I fully realize the need for repententance, yet I believe the blood constantly cleanses the believer.
Another point: It is our responsibility to witness for Jesus. How can we do that knowing that our own salvation may be in doubt? Are we part of God's family one day but not the next?
Does GRACE operate only when laws are kept? If so, it isn't grace. Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."
A Loving Father tells us how to get saved and I firmly believe the same Loving Father would make it plain, to a child He loves, how that same salvation could be lost. Jesus says, "Trust Me and I'll never lose you." I certainly want to please God but the fate of my salvation lies with the One who paid for my salvation, not with me.
Who among us can believe there is a chance of losing our salvation and not live in fear?
If someone lives with that kind of fear, it would only be natural to do everything possible to keep the law. Therefore, whether conscious or un-conscious, a person would deny the gift, power and true meaning of grace.
Jim