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D.R.Agony
04-01-2008, 08:57 AM
Hi! This place is cool!!!

Maybe you guys can tell me something. So I read alot of storys with Dragons in them, cus I looove Dragons, but there always wrong. They have these stupid, fluffy, pet, Dragons that love humans, or else, these horrible, evil, Dragons that dont make any sense, in there own terms.

Its so frustrating!!!!! :( :(

Doesnt anybody write Dragons that are cruel, and selfish, and greedy, and mean, but also, wise, and smart, and witty, with there own Culture? Why dont Dragons have Literature? Does anybody write Dragons, that look down on humans, cuz they have every right to look down on humans, cuz their better? Only I think its best from the Humans point of view, you know?

Anyway if you can tell me books to read Id love it soooo much! Thanks!!! :)

mscelina
04-01-2008, 09:04 AM
but there always wrong.

and why is it that they're always wrong? hmmm? Dragons are prevalent in multiple mythological religions, and even surfaced in Christianity (google St. George.) How can there possibly be a wrong to a multi-cultural creature? Might want to examine that statement there, my friend.

Anne McCaffrey (who is the guiding spirit in dragon literature) has her Dragonriders of Pern series. Her dragons perfectly correlate with what you think is 'right.' You might also want to check out the Dragonlance series from Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman. Their dragons perfectly match up with your second request, particularly in the new series sequel (as in the last five years) they've written with all kinds of dragons in it--from the wise to the cruel.

Good luck.

Toothpaste
04-01-2008, 09:08 AM
I'd have to agree mscelina. Yes there are legends to use as a starting point, but let us not forget, Dragons are fictional. You can really do whatever you want, write whatever you want. There is no "right" or "wrong". In very broad terms the west tended to see dragons as creatures that were evil to be destroyed, the east revered them as gods. Who was right?

Write whatever kind of dragons you like! You can make them everything you want them to be!

mscelina
04-01-2008, 09:11 AM
Very true. Also, researching the original prototypes for fantasy dragons, it'd be a good idea to research the creatures thoroughly. That will help you to get a grasp on what the dragon is made to represent, and why those representations are important.

D.R.Agony
04-01-2008, 09:14 AM
Im confused.

Cuz, the St George Dragon, is all evil and its great that the night kills him. And Ann McCaffrey's Dragons, are all good, they love there humans, and do whats best, for the world. And the Dragonlance Dragons are all, well, D&Dish, I know theyre books FOR D&D but I dont think you should get to put Evil or Good labels, on other creatures. It doesnt make sense. Like, you can't even tell, if a dog is good or evil, how can you tell, with a Dragon? Theyre smarter than people too, a lot, but then why should we, totally understand them, in a book?
But I dont hate them all! Or I wouldnt keep reading them lol! I like the Dragon in A Wizard of Earthsea and I almost like the Dragons in those Dane Cook books. They make sense you know, but theyre totally not, human. Thats what I like. Do you know which other ones are like that?

Toothpaste
04-01-2008, 09:21 AM
D.R.Agony, the reason you can "tell" if a dragon is good or bad, is because the author created the dragon in their imagination. Dragons don't really exist. The author can do whatever they want. Heck, it doesn't even matter that they aren't real, an author if they wanted to could create an evil dog. Some authors make pure evil or pure good characters to make a statement of some kind. Some think it works with the story they are telling.

Now it is obvious you like your dragons to be three dimensional creatures. And that's cool. So write them as three dimensional creatures.

As for recommendations for such books . . . I am afraid I am not the one who can help you with that. I have only read a few books about dragons, and done research on eastern dragons. Neither of which help with your situation. I have no doubt you will find many others here who can recommend books to you! In fact you may find yourself overwhelmed with suggestions, that tends to happen here!

Also, and this is totally off topic, but you will notice as you post here, things are a tiny bit different than on other boards with the writing in the posts. Because everyone here is a writer, posts tend to be written more carefully, with attention paid to spelling and grammar etc. It's a good way to keep practicing while relaxing at the same time (I am a terrible speller, and I know that it has definitely helped me). Now you are of course under no obligation to write that way, but you may find it useful.

I also realise I never welcomed you to AW! Welcome!! I hope you have fun here!

D.R.Agony
04-01-2008, 09:42 AM
D.R.Agony, the reason you can "tell" if a dragon is good or bad, is because the author created the dragon in their imagination. Dragons don't really exist. The author can do whatever they want. Heck, it doesn't even matter that they aren't real, an author if they wanted to could create an evil dog. Some authors make pure evil or pure good characters to make a statement of some kind. Some think it works with the story they are telling.

Now it is obvious you like your dragons to be three dimensional creatures. And that's cool. So write them as three dimensional creatures.

As for recommendations for such books . . . I am afraid I am not the one who can help you with that. I have only read a few books about dragons, and done research on eastern dragons. Neither of which help with your situation. I have no doubt you will find many others here who can recommend books to you! In fact you may find yourself overwhelmed with suggestions, that tends to happen here!

Also, and this is totally off topic, but you will notice as you post here, things are a tiny bit different than on other boards with the writing in the posts. Because everyone here is a writer, posts tend to be written more carefully, with attention paid to spelling and grammar etc. It's a good way to keep practicing while relaxing at the same time (I am a terrible speller, and I know that it has definitely helped me). Now you are of course under no obligation to write that way, but you may find it useful.

I also realise I never welcomed you to AW! Welcome!! I hope you have fun here!

Thanks! Hey its so cool you can quote things here!! :)
Do you know any Eastern Dragon Books?

JJ Cooper
04-01-2008, 11:17 AM
I found a good site for referencing St George Dragons. Try here (http://www.dragons.com.au/).

JJ

Birol
04-01-2008, 11:19 AM
Thanks! Hey its so cool you can quote things here!! :)
Do you know any Eastern Dragon Books?

Oh, grow up and get a life. Do your own research.

bluntforcetrauma
04-01-2008, 11:23 AM
D.R. Agony, if you wouldn't mind telling, just what is your age? It would help us better understand how to help you.

Sonneillon
04-01-2008, 11:25 AM
You seem like the sort of person who would enjoy Eragon.

*innocent whistle*

D.R.Agony
04-01-2008, 11:28 AM
No I didnt like that Dragon at all I like it when Dragons are much meaner.

D.R.Agony
04-01-2008, 11:29 AM
Im not allowed to say how old I am on the internet blun, sorry.

D.R.Agony
04-01-2008, 11:30 AM
Rob why are you so mean? I didnt know there were mean people here!

D.R.Agony
04-01-2008, 11:31 AM
JJ Thank you! I will go read that now!!!

bluntforcetrauma
04-01-2008, 11:34 AM
Im not allowed to say how old I am on the internet blun, sorry.

You may call me Rick. By your reply I will assume you are not yet an adult. And assuming this as fact, it will help others in offering advice to you.

Glad to meet you and wishing you all the very best-
Rick

bluntforcetrauma
04-01-2008, 11:53 AM
I tell you what, little fella. Let uncle Rick read you a nice bedtime story all about them mean old dragons. It will be followed by warm milk and a good old porn video which stars me and yer mother.

D.R.Agony
04-01-2008, 12:00 PM
I cant watch porn Rick Id get in trouble!!!

Why is your name Rick and your picture a hello kitty? Those are girls and Rick is a boy name.

kristie911
04-01-2008, 12:00 PM
I tell you what, little fella. Let uncle Rick read you a nice bedtime story all about them mean old dragons. It will be followed by warm milk and a good old porn video which stars me and yer mother.

:ROFL:

bluntforcetrauma
04-01-2008, 12:01 PM
I cant watch porn Rick Id get in trouble!!!

Why is your name Rick and your picture a hello kitty? Those are girls and Rick is a boy name.

You ask too many questions, kid. Just do as I say and get in the damn car!

D.R.Agony
04-01-2008, 12:03 PM
Why are you being mean too? Is evrybody mean on this post? You were so nice before! :(

TemlynWriting
04-01-2008, 12:03 PM
Wow. :roll:

bluntforcetrauma
04-01-2008, 12:05 PM
Why are you being mean too? Is evrybody mean on this post? You were so nice before! :(

I'm not mean. There comes a time when a young tadpole as yourself must learn the facts of life. Come along, my little cowboy!

D.R.Agony
04-01-2008, 12:08 PM
Im not a cowboy. Why would I ride a cow. Dragons eat cows!!

Bartholomew
04-01-2008, 12:17 PM
This is SUCH an April 1 prank. Right?

D.R.Agony
04-01-2008, 12:19 PM
I could ride a cow for a prank I guess.

Varthikes
04-01-2008, 12:39 PM
We seem to be on opposite sides. I prefer dragons that are presented as honorable creatures and on the same level as humans. The only dragon stories I read are ones which present them in such a light.

maxmordon
04-01-2008, 12:42 PM
Im not allowed to say how old I am on the internet blun, sorry.

Don't worry, we can easily guess

D.R.Agony
04-01-2008, 12:43 PM
We seem to be on opposite sides. I prefer dragons that are presented as honorable creatures and on the same level as humans. The only dragon stories I read are ones which present them in such a light.

They cant be on the same level lolol their much bigger!

Varthikes
04-01-2008, 12:46 PM
I mean on the same level of intelligence. As equals. Able to coexist in peace.

D.R.Agony
04-01-2008, 12:52 PM
Why would Dragons want to coxist in peace???
Their bigger and have magic and can breath fire!!

Plus their reptiles and reptiles arent friendly.

JJ Cooper
04-01-2008, 12:53 PM
Turtles are friendly.

JJ

Ruv Draba
04-01-2008, 12:59 PM
Doesnt anybody write Dragons that are cruel, and selfish, and greedy, and mean, but also, wise, and smart, and witty, with there own Culture? Why dont Dragons have Literature?
Dragons are one of the few creatures from ancient myth that seem to hold eternal fascination for us. As symbols and icons, dragons are constantly renewed and reinvented all around the world. Every time our cultural concerns shift, it seems that dragons find a new place to symbolise some part of those concerns. We use them for symbols of aggression, wisdom, longevity, fertility, elements, rulership, cruelty, predation, chaos, law, protection, animus, divinity, mundanity, wisdom, pragmatism. It seems that we can fit any symbol to a dragon as long as it's primal and indomitable.

Symbolically dragons can be very potent, but unfortunately (to my mind) they're also used as garnish and flavouring more often than theme these days. If sex sells cars, shampoo and toothpaste, flying saurians seem to sell low grade fantasy, horror and even science fiction just as readily. They don't have to be well-designed saurians. They don't have to be novel or even meaningful. Put some scales on the cover and the books seem to walk out the door.

I think it's hard to produce quality original draconic imagery these days; hard to differentiate from the noise. Speaking personally, I shun books with dragons in titles or on covers -- simply because it seems to be more often a predictor of bad fiction these days than good.

Nevertheless there are some classic dragons in fiction. My favourites include the dragon of Beowulf, of Tolkien's The Hobbit, of Le Guin's A Wizard of Earthsea, and of Macavoy's Tea with the Black Dragon. I would have to acknowledge McCaffrey's work too as being a very thorough exploration of the topic - though her treatment of dragons is not among my favourites.But after the fantasy of the early 80s, I found fantasy choking on dragons and haven't found any favourite dragon stories since.

I think that the nearest draconic culture to the one you described would be Le Guin's treatment of dragons in her Earthsea cycle. Their inclusion is brief and infrequent, but significant nontheless and the draconic culture seems to have all the elements you mentioned - though perhaps they have a rich oral tradition there rather than written literature. Highly commended.

bluntforcetrauma
04-01-2008, 01:00 PM
I must have turned the corner down Nerd Street by mistake.

Varthikes
04-01-2008, 01:04 PM
Turtles are friendly.

As are geckos.

And, just because they're bigger and spit fire, doesn't necessarily mean they must be bullies. Additionally, not all dragons have magic. Like mine.

D.R.Agony
04-01-2008, 01:05 PM
Dragons are one of the few creatures from ancient myth that seem to hold eternal fascination for us. As symbols and icons, dragons are constantly renewed and reinvented all around the world. Every time our cultural concerns shift, it seems that dragons find a new place to symbolise some part of those concerns. We use them for symbols of aggression, wisdom, longevity, fertility, elements, rulership, cruelty, predation, chaos, law, protection, animus, divinity, mundanity, wisdom, pragmatism. It seems that we can fit any symbol to a dragon as long as it's primal and indomitable.

Symbolically dragons can be very potent, but unfortunately (to my mind) they're also used as garnish and flavouring more often than theme these days. If sex sells cars, shampoo and toothpaste, flying saurians seem to sell low grade fantasy, horror and even science fiction just as readily. They don't have to be well-designed saurians. They don't have to be novel or even meaningful. Put some scales on the cover and the books seem to walk out the door.

I think it's hard to produce quality original draconic imagery these days; hard to differentiate from the noise. Speaking personally, I shun books with dragons in titles or on covers -- simply because it seems to be more often a predictor of bad fiction these days than good.

Nevertheless there are some classic dragons in fiction. My favourites include the dragon of Beowulf, of Tolkien's The Hobbit, of Le Guin's A Wizard of Earthsea, and of Macavoy's Tea with the Black Dragon. I would have to acknowledge McCaffrey's work too as being a very thorough exploration of the topic - though her treatment of dragons is not among my favourites.But after the fantasy of the early 80s, I found fantasy choking on dragons and haven't found any favourite dragon stories since.

I think that the nearest draconic culture to the one you described would be Le Guin's treatment of dragons in Le Guin's Earthsea cycle. Her treatment is brief and infrequent, but significant nontheless and the culture seems to have all the elements you mentioned - though perhaps they have a rich oral tradition there rather than written literature.

Yeah!
I like leguinn.

zornhau
04-01-2008, 01:10 PM
SF&F dragons come in all sorts of forms, with all sorts of mentalities. This is a very flexible trope, but what is it that's at the root of their coolness?

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/zornhau/zfa748.jpg

Shweta
04-01-2008, 01:13 PM
I think it's hard to produce quality original draconic imagery these days; hard to differentiate from the noise. Speaking personally, I shun books with dragons in titles or on covers -- simply because it seems to be more often a predictor of bad fiction these days than good.

Ruv, have you read Jo Walton's Tooth and Claw?


Nevertheless there are some classic dragons in fiction. My favourites include the dragon of Beowulf, of Tolkien's The Hobbit, of Le Guin's A Wizard of Earthsea, and of Macavoy's Tea with the Black Dragon.
Love Tea with the Black Dragon! Too many people need to read that book. I can't find a sufficient supply of second-hand copies to foist off on them :D

Speaking of which, Ruv, have you read Jo Walton's Tooth and Claw?


I would have to acknowledge McCaffrey's work too as being a very thorough exploration of the topic - though her treatment of dragons is not among my favourites.But after the fantasy of the early 80s, I found fantasy choking on dragons and haven't found any favourite dragon stories since.

I actually like Naomi Novik's nod to Anne McCaffrey's dragons in His Majesty's Dragon and sequels better than I like McCaffrey's dragons themselves at this point.

I used to love them, though. All those -th names. So memorable. Like Ruth, Franth, Elbereth...


I think that the nearest draconic culture to the one you described would be Le Guin's treatment of dragons in Le Guin's Earthsea cycle. Her treatment is brief and infrequent, but significant nontheless and the culture seems to have all the elements you mentioned - though perhaps they have a rich oral tradition there rather than written literature.

This might just be because Eastern dragons are less overdone than Western ones. But on that note, Ruv, have you read Jo Walton's Tooth and Claw?


...I may have asked that already.

bluntforcetrauma
04-01-2008, 01:16 PM
I'm glad you're all a bunch of nerds. Probably live in yer mama's basements and attend star trek conventions until you die. OMG...is that a Fantastic Four #385? Losers.

Shweta
04-01-2008, 01:18 PM
I'm not going to say what I said before, bft, because as a mod I have greater dignity. But watch it, you're on shaky ground. Calling me a nerd, huh? Me!

bluntforcetrauma
04-01-2008, 01:19 PM
Take it anyway you want, Dragon lover. You scifi fantasy types are all the same.

D.R.Agony
04-01-2008, 01:21 PM
SF&F dragons come in all sorts of forms, with all sorts of mentalities. This is a very flexible trope, but what is it that's at the root of their coolness?

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/zornhau/zfa748.jpg

lolol thats a dinosuar!!!

D.R.Agony
04-01-2008, 01:22 PM
Take it anyway you want, Dragon lover. You scifi fantasy types are all the same.

lol the Dragons are much bigger than people and they lay eggs how can he be a dragon lover?

bluntforcetrauma
04-01-2008, 01:23 PM
I'm sorry for making people mad. I thought it was a damned prank now I'm gonna pay for it. You guys acted like my friends until some kid who ain't never gonna write anything good came along. Then you act like he's just peaches and cream. How can you be that way?

JJ Cooper
04-01-2008, 01:25 PM
BFT and Temlyn. Remember there are still rules to this board. Take it to PM. Or I will be forced to take it to the next level.

Serious discussion for others may continue.

JJ

Shweta
04-01-2008, 01:26 PM
BFT and Temlyn. Remember there are still rules to this board. Take it to PM. Or I will be forced to take it to the next level.
JJ

:Wha:

No no, I promise it's not that sort of book.

Varthikes
04-01-2008, 01:26 PM
lol the Dragons are much bigger than people and they lay eggs how can he be a dragon lover?

Psst... It's not that kind of love.

Lccorp2
04-01-2008, 01:27 PM
Hmm. Temlyn, Tooth and Claw, the way I saw it was more of a parody of the victorian romance sub-genre than an actual attempt at a dragon society from the ground-up, if you get what I mean...

But maybe if I can get agents interested in Nightbane...XP

bluntforcetrauma
04-01-2008, 01:28 PM
See the trouble you caused Temlyn?

JJ Cooper
04-01-2008, 01:31 PM
Let's clean up some of these posts, hey. Junior is trying hard to get a serious discussion going. Cease the mocking or risk a time out.

JJ

bluntforcetrauma
04-01-2008, 01:32 PM
Cooper...who died and made you King Sh*t?

Shweta
04-01-2008, 01:33 PM
Hmm. Temlyn, Tooth and Claw, the way I saw it was more of a parody of the victorian romance sub-genre than an actual attempt at a dragon society from the ground-up, if you get what I mean...

:Jaw:

Tooth and Claw is a parody? I was never so shocked.
Shocked.
I may never read it again this month.

The story goes, Jo had a flash of insight -- Trollope's novels made perfect sense if you just realized that the characters weren't actually human . They were obviously dragons.

ETA: Though my husband is sort of insisting that it's not quite a parody. A pastiche, perhaps.

JJ Cooper
04-01-2008, 01:37 PM
Cooper...who died and made you King Sh*t?

I have contacts.

Okay team, due to the his non-stop mocking of Junior, I need a girl-dragon avatar for BFT.

JJ

bluntforcetrauma
04-01-2008, 01:38 PM
Not yer mother in law again!

Bufty
04-01-2008, 01:41 PM
Time out? It's a flaming lifetime out I need after wading through this dragon squirt's mewing.

Go screw yourself you pumped-up little shite! If you're physically incapable of that - see if one of your dragon pals can oblige. (After all it's April 1st, so they can't be all that busy.)


Let's clean up some of these posts, hey. Junior is trying hard to get a serious discussion going. Cease the mocking or risk a time out.

JJ

bluntforcetrauma
04-01-2008, 01:43 PM
Don't be feeding Junior that Loch Ness monster crap.

Lccorp2
04-01-2008, 01:47 PM
The main problem facing dragons, IMO, is the same as what "cool" non-humans (or hell, even secondary characters) in the genre face: they're simply not given the treatment main characters face. All too often, they're just given a overly monolithic culture, colour-coded, used as dispensers of wisdom, etc, etc.

Look at Mccaffery. Over there they're just extensions of their rider's personality and tokens to "prove" the SPESHULNESS of characters (frankly, when I found out Jaxom was an insert of Todd Mccaffery, I wasn't surprised) and get them into the super-speshul enlightened club with freer sexuality.

Eragon is worse. Saphira is an unabashed plot device and exists only to serve Eragoner.

BTW: Temlyn, you're not doing beta reading services, are you? XP

Ps: JJ, I have a humanoid female dragon drawing somewhere, if you want it. XP

Bufty
04-01-2008, 01:47 PM
You piss off too, or I'll crunch you up as well. I'm in a mean mood today -I warned you.

I'm off shopping now. Seeya shortly.



Don't be feeding Junior that Loch Ness monster crap.

Shweta
04-01-2008, 01:52 PM
Time out? It's a flaming lifetime out I need after wading through this dragon squirt's mewing.

Hey now, be nice. If you don't like people you should put them on ignore.
For example, I've had you on ignore for ages. That's why I can't see a word you say. True story!


Look at Mccaffery. Over there they're just extensions of their rider's personality and tokens to "prove" the SPESHULNESS of characters (frankly, when I found out Jaxom was an insert of Todd Mccaffery, I wasn't surprised) and get them into the super-speshul enlightened club with freer sexuality.

You mean she had.... her son...do...with his...
:e2thud:


BTW: Temlyn, you're not doing beta reading services, are you? XP

Only on April 1st! :D

Lccorp2
04-01-2008, 01:58 PM
It's in the The Dragonlover's guide to Pern. In there is a whole list of her friends and family she's inserted into Pern in one form or another, and her son Todd is listed as Jaxom.

Now do you understand why he gets to have a super-speshul white dragon, save the world so many times, get the love of his life from the evil punching-bag-villian Toric, discover a literal deus ex machina, usher in a new golden age of technology, blah blah, etc, etc? XP

HeronW
04-01-2008, 02:01 PM
In Eastern myths dragons are good or evil or ambivalent. In Western tales, they get a bad rap most of the time.

D.R.Agony
04-01-2008, 02:07 PM
Now do you understand why he gets to have a super-speshul white dragon, save the world so many times, get the love of his life from the evil punching-bag-villian Toric, discover a literal deus ex machina, usher in a new golden age of technology, blah blah, etc, etc? XP

No

Ravenlocks
04-01-2008, 03:29 PM
It's in the The Dragonlover's guide to Pern. In there is a whole list of her friends and family she's inserted into Pern in one form or another, and her son Todd is listed as Jaxom.

Now do you understand why he gets to have a super-speshul white dragon, save the world so many times, get the love of his life from the evil punching-bag-villian Toric, discover a literal deus ex machina, usher in a new golden age of technology, blah blah, etc, etc? XP
I haven't read any McCaffrey in a long time, but that just ruined the books for me (not trying to make you feel guilty, but it did). Who puts their son in their novels? Seriously. I can see including one's evil boss, but friends and family should stay out, IMO.

Now I'm waiting for someone to come along and point out how they've included their friends and family in their work.

Shweta
04-01-2008, 03:34 PM
I haven't read any McCaffrey in a long time, but that just ruined the books for me (not trying to make you feel guilty, but it did). Who puts their son in their novels? Seriously. I can see including one's evil boss, but friends and family should stay out, IMO.

What really squicks me is that Jaxom (modeled on her son!) had... uh, dealings... that were semiconsensual at best :Wha:

Sassee
04-01-2008, 06:05 PM
I have a dragon in my werewolf story. Yes... in my werewolf story. It isn't wise, isn't friendly, but isn't evil, either. It goes to college. And it's a major secondary character.

And... uh... I may have inserted a tribute to a particular friend in there...

>.>
<.<

*runs away*

Bufty
04-01-2008, 06:22 PM
What a coincidence - guess who I've had there too?

I know you won't be able to read this, dearest Temlyn, but I have to get it off my chesticles.

Be nice? Be nice? I'm never anything ELSE -you dumb bimbo.

I'm so, so, sorry to be so tetchy today, but I've had 3 years of critting in SYW and that's enough to drive anybody round the proverbial whatsit.

And speaking of whatsits, whatsit take to get banned for 3 months here?

I can't get any writing done at all.

Do you hear me? None!

Each time I switch my computer on, this site bursts onto my screen. No 'May I intrude on your writing time' or anything remotely courteous - it just appears. And every time, some penstruck pratt or other of a wordsmith has posted something that has to be responded to in order to save the great unwashed from being unduly influenced by crap other than mine.

Can anybody hear me out there?

Hello.o.o.o.o.o.o.




Hey now, be nice. If you don't like people you should put them on ignore.
For example, I've had you on ignore for ages. That's why I can't see a word you say. True story!

ChaosTitan
04-01-2008, 06:24 PM
April 1st or not, folks, let's not eat the newbies. I expect a little more decorum from our regulars.

DR.Agony, welcome.

ChaosTitan
04-01-2008, 06:25 PM
And speaking of whatsits, whatsit take to get banned for 3 months here?



Can anybody hear me out there?

Hello.o.o.o.o.o.o.

All you have to do is ask....

Toothpaste
04-01-2008, 06:49 PM
Thanks! Hey its so cool you can quote things here!! :)
Do you know any Eastern Dragon Books?


There are some great sites online, and if you go to the library you can find stories of some of the legends. Do a bit of googling "eastern dragon" and "chinese dragon" and "japanese dragon" to start.

As to what you said later about dragons can't be a person's equal because they are physically bigger, let me remind you again that dragons aren't real, therefore they can be whatever we want them to be.

Bufty
04-01-2008, 07:20 PM
Okay - for months I've been telling myself I'd do this. Now I bite the bullet.

This is tough, but I really must attempt another novel.

So, to all my fellow posters - and I mean it most sincerely, guys and gals - I have had a great time here for the past 3 years. I've learned a lot from posters too numerous to mention, although stalwarts like Andrew, Jan, Linda, Gp101, JJ, JCD, Davids, BrianM, Seun, Preyer, xhouseboy, Birol, DP, JMcD, Q of S, ICE, Carogirl, Chunky, Maestro, Mac, Jenna,and the mods and many others spring to mind. If you're not there you're not out of mind.

I hope I haven't caused too much pain to anyone I've critted.

Thanks for everything, and I'm now off to hopefully prove it's true that critting others improves your own writing. God willing, I'll return later in the year refreshed and eager to catch up with all the goings on at AW.

Now, Shwebb - (gulp) I'm askin'. :cry:


All you have to do is ask....

Birol
04-01-2008, 07:23 PM
Rob why are you so mean? I didnt know there were mean people here!

Honesty is not mean.


This is SUCH an April 1 prank. Right?

No. Mac banned them this year.


I'm sorry for making people mad. I thought it was a damned prank now I'm gonna pay for it. You guys acted like my friends until some kid who ain't never gonna write anything good came along. Then you act like he's just peaches and cream. How can you be that way?

Look, just because you don't think the kid will ever write doesn't mean s/he won't. We can be mean because we're people. Humans. That's what we do.



And speaking of whatsits, whatsit take to get banned for 3 months here?

I can't get any writing done at all.

Do you hear me? None!

Each time I switch my computer on, this site bursts onto my screen. No 'May I intrude on your writing time' or anything remotely courteous - it just appears. And every time, some penstruck pratt or other of a wordsmith has posted something that has to be responded to in order to save the great unwashed from being unduly influenced by crap other than mine.

You have to admit, it is one way to limit what little competition there is in the slush pile. ;)

AnneMarble
04-01-2008, 08:37 PM
I think it's hard to produce quality original draconic imagery these days; hard to differentiate from the noise. Speaking personally, I shun books with dragons in titles or on covers -- simply because it seems to be more often a predictor of bad fiction these days than good.
Unfortunately, publishers are going to keep putting dragons on the covers (even when the book rises above the fray) because it sells better. Authors who have published dragon books report that the ones with the dragons on the covers sell more copies.

What about authors who use "dragon" as a metaphor in titles when there are no dragons in the book? For example, Holly Lisle's Vengeance of Dragons (I think that was the title). That sort of title probably keeps wary readers away because they're afraid it will be yet another dragon books, but readers expecting a dragon might be disappointed. IIRC the Starburst review of Vengeance of Dragons smarmily told readers "Yes, there is a dragon" -- even though there were no dragons in the book. So clearly they were assuming it was a standard dragon book. :rolleyes:

Serenity
04-01-2008, 09:08 PM
:popcorn:

yappo
04-01-2008, 09:42 PM
My dragons will stay. Dragons are good for your health. A dragon a day keeps the livestock away.
I'll even keep my dragoons as well as my draconian measures.

Sten ;)

Phaeal
04-01-2008, 10:00 PM
I think dragons would have an oral rather than a written literature, because their claws aren't capable of grasping pens or plying keys.

Except they can't actually speak, either.

They could have a hissed literature. Or a telepathic literature.

Or maybe they wouldn't know literature from their massive scaly hindquarters.

Forget about it...no, wait! They could punch symbolic groups of holes into paper with their claws, like Braille! But then you'd have the hanging chads...

Rats.

Birol
04-01-2008, 10:06 PM
Easy, they just carefully singe those hanging chads off.

Ruv Draba
04-01-2008, 10:31 PM
Unfortunately, publishers are going to keep putting dragons on the covers (even when the book rises above the fray) because it sells better.
Doubtless you're right, Anne (hi Anne!). But equally, bare breasts would probably sell more books too - yet publishers manage to exercise good taste on this. Err.. sometimes. It's the authors and publishers who get to choose what goes on the cover; I just get to choose whether I buy 'em.

I'm allergic to Fantasy covers with girls in cloaks, unicorns and rampant swords too... Call it an idiosyncrasy but such cynical limbic brain cover-marketing puts me off.

(Actually, not entirely. I'll still buy pulp fiction - when I can find it - because of their kitsch covers.)

What about authors who use "dragon" as a metaphor in titles when there are no dragons in the book? For example, Holly Lisle's Vengeance of Dragons (I think that was the title).Well, from my perspective as a reader - Heaven help them... they'd better have a good reputation. Which Holly fortunately does. For instance I read Thomas Harris' Red Dragon and while there's dragon imagery in that there's sure as heck no dragon characters.

Polenth
04-01-2008, 10:34 PM
There are some great sites online, and if you go to the library you can find stories of some of the legends. Do a bit of googling "eastern dragon" and "chinese dragon" and "japanese dragon" to start.

Must resist urge to shamelessly self promote...

Anyway, if he meant fiction, 'The Dragon Paths' (Frena Bloomfield) is an interesting read. Though the dragons don't come into it until later. They're more your Eastern chaotic-could-destroy-the-world-but-don't type.

Ruv Draba
04-01-2008, 10:37 PM
They're more your Eastern chaotic-could-destroy-the-world-but-don't type.

They don't type? Dragons without keyboard skills?

See, this is why I don't buy dragon books.

Varthikes
04-02-2008, 12:12 AM
Or a telepathic literature.

That's what my dragons have. :)

Ravenlocks
04-02-2008, 04:29 AM
What really squicks me is that Jaxom (modeled on her son!) had... uh, dealings... that were semiconsensual at best :Wha:
Oh. Didn't remember that. Yeah, that's uh... Hmm. I'm assuming it's a case of her letting the character do what she felt he had to do in the story despite who he was modeled on.

In all seriousness, if I modeled a character after somebody I know in real life, especially somebody I like, such as a family member, I'd have a hell of a time ever letting them do anything reprehensible. So no models for me.


And... uh... I may have inserted a tribute to a particular friend in there...

>.>
<.<

*runs away*

Hehe.

:D

D.R.Agony
04-02-2008, 04:44 AM
Dragons could have Punch Cards, Pheal?
Then they could have old-sckool Computers :) :):)

D.R.Agony
04-02-2008, 04:45 AM
Thank you Toothbrush :) :) :)

ChaosTitan
04-02-2008, 04:48 AM
??????

D.R.Agony
04-02-2008, 04:51 AM
Can I have some of those I ran out and have to use smilies now :Huh:

ChaosTitan
04-02-2008, 04:53 AM
:e2thud:

ChaosTitan
04-02-2008, 07:50 AM
Night-night, dear Drag-queen.