Were Interracial Relationships Considered Perverted? (late 17th-early 18th Centuries)

AZ_Dawn

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I've got a white man and a black woman in an are-they-or-aren't-they relationship (they're mischievous and love to keep people guessing :tongue). Nowadays, most people would maybe look twice and then have no problems with it, but what about in my time period? Would it have treated as a case of "Why do you want her/him for a lover" and left at that? Would it be considered a minor kink? Or would would it be considered really sick? Does her being a free black make a difference? If ethnicity matters, he's Irish and she's French. Thanks!
 

Puma

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A lot depends on the which sex was which - a white man with a black mistress was not frowned upon (look at Jefferson and Sally Hennings or the octaroon balls in New Orleans). A white woman with a black man was quite a different matter - there are records from Maryland of white women being given public whippings for taking up with a black man. I don't think there'd be so much coy "are they or aren't they" in that time period - landowners taking slaves to bed was pretty blatant and frequently there was no other relationship involved. Locale also plays a part in it. Puma
 
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AZ_Dawn

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A large chunk of the action takes place on a pirate ship in the Caribbean area. Their crewmates may or may not care, but in case they do, the crew is made up mostly of UK and French citizens with at least one colonial Spaniard; other nationalities might possibly be represented, but I don't know yet. If they're on land, it's usually at either a British or a French port.

I'm not sure how to describe their class. They both come from poor working-class families; her family has been free for at least two generations. Before they went to sea, he was a dockworker in Ireland and she was a street musician in what's now Haiti. He's now the master gunner and she's the ship's musician. They're also mildly rich.

Hope that helps.
 

bethany

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there are some people who would still freak out about an interacial couple. The real estate agent who sold us our house told us that she and her family were threatened that if she showed houses in certain areas to interacial couples that they (the kkk) would come after her. Not that this affects your story, but I'd be willing to bet that there would be certain people who would be offended.
 

AZ_Dawn

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Looks like Puma partially answered my question. Thanks, Puma! Still, it's not a master/slave relationship since she's not a slave. What they have is a shipmates/comrades-in-arms relationship.
 

Gillian

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Different religions would be more of a relationship killer than colour of skin in some places during that period. Define who they are and what they believe and where they were and then maybe ask the question again?
 

girlyswot

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I've got a white man and a black woman in an are-they-or-aren't-they relationship (they're mischievous and love to keep people guessing :tongue). Nowadays, most people would maybe look twice and then have no problems with it, but what about in my time period? Would it have treated as a case of "Why do you want her/him for a lover" and left at that? Would it be considered a minor kink? Or would would it be considered really sick? Does her being a free black make a difference? If ethnicity matters, he's Irish and she's French. Thanks!

I think you're asking the wrong questions. Those are questions that modern people might ask - is it kinky, is it sick? I just don't believe that in the 17th/18th century, people would have thought about interracial relationships in those terms. I think the questions they'd have asked would have been more like 'is that legal?' (probably not a huge deal for pirates, except if there's a thought of marriage) and 'is that moral?' You have to get yourself into the mindset of how white people (of all classes) were brought up to regard black people (free or slave). At certain times and places, black people were regarded as a different species - the notion of the mulatto child who, like a mule, was barren because of the mixed blood, for instance. I can't see it ever being just 'left at that' - I'd think they face a lifetime of being shunned by many and ridiculed by others. Even on board ship, I'd think there'd be at least some who haven't left society's views on colour behind. You really, really need to try and do some research on this, I think.
 

AZ_Dawn

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Thanks, everyone! I think I'm get the general idea in bits and pieces.

Gillian said:
Different religions would be more of a relationship killer than colour of skin in some places during that period. Define who they are and what they believe and where they were and then maybe ask the question again?
They're both Catholics.

girlyswot said:
At certain times and places, black people were regarded as a different species...
If that means black/white relationship were considered on the same level as bestiality, people might think that was pretty sick.

bethany said:
there are some people who would still freak out about an interacial couple. The real estate agent who sold us our house told us that she and her family were threatened that if she showed houses in certain areas to interacial couples that they (the kkk) would come after her. Not that this affects your story, but I'd be willing to bet that there would be certain people who would be offended.
girlyswot said:
Even on board ship, I'd think there'd be at least some who haven't left society's views on colour behind.
Got it covered.;)

girlyswot said:
You really, really need to try and do some research on this, I think.
Could you suggest a few sources, please? Thanks!
 

Puma

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Going back to a post of yours up the thread a bit, AZDawn - a musician on a pirate ship? I doubt it. For that matter, a musician on any ship in that period would be highly doubtful. There was only so much room for people, everyone had to be worth their salt - and for that matter, I think there was a great deal of superstition involved with women on ships even as passengers. If you're going to have a woman on a ship she should be able to do a man's job (and do it better than a man). Otherwise I think your set-up is pretty fanciful. Puma
 

funidream

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Here is a link to an article that tells an interesting story regarding legality of interracial marriages in Colonial America.

http://www.common-place.org/vol-05/no-01/heinegg-hoff/index.shtml

I would suggest that you dive into some serious research. Throughout history, human beings are known to break from the norm and find ways to buck established patterns and systems.

Armed with a thorough knowledge of your time and place you will be able to figure out how to give roots to what may seem like a fanciful premise, and write a story that is both believable and entertaining. :Sun:
 

AZ_Dawn

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Puma said:
Going back to a post of yours up the thread a bit, AZDawn - a musician on a pirate ship? I doubt it. For that matter, a musician on any ship in that period would be highly doubtful.
Actually, many pirate ships had musicians; Bartholomew Robert specifically mentions musicians in his ship's articles. They weren't just after-hours entertainment. They'd also play work songs, and if their insturment sounded intimidating enough, they'd play to intimidate potential victims during an attack.

Puma said:
...and for that matter, I think there was a great deal of superstition involved with women on ships even as passengers.
It wasn't so much a superstition as it was a fear that the men would fight among themsleves over her. Still, pirate women weren't unknown during the time; Anne Bonny and Mary Read come to mind, and Bonny was always open about it.

I'm not trying to hack on you, Puma. I'm just pointing out that I've got a historical precedent for this.:eek:
 

pdr

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Home - but for how long?
And in...

some Mediterranean countries still have local fishermen who won't take a woman out. It's unlucky, not because of sex, but because of Eve and Eve's curse!

Point re musicians.
Many sailors played the penny whistle, the flute, the recorder, the ship's boy banged a drum, the ships' carpenters often played and made instruments. Would a captain really take surplus bagggage in the form of a musician or two who were not sailors, or would he call musicians the musical ones amongst the sailors, who sometimes got extra pay or privileges for playing music for the crew?
 
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Puma

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I think pdr's got a better handle on what I was trying to say about musicians on ships - music was used as a tool whether for beating cadence for rowing a trireme or piping orders - but these were needed jobs not for entertainment.

Yes, Anne Bonny and Mary Read are well known - and there were others. Puma
 

Mac H.

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I have a book from 'Moody Press' (a conservative Christian Press in the USA) that was published in the 1960s.

It explains that even though a marriage between a black & white person might be legal, a true Christian should never do it.

So that belief was common in the USA in Christian circles up until fifty years ago.

You mentioned that some came from the UK. Here's an interesting comment: http://interracialvoice.com/sweet15.html

To quote:
In England, Africans were seen as Black, but before around 1770, little or no stigma attached to mixed Afro-European heritage. As mentioned above, until his ruling of 1772, Lord Mansfield had been pro-slavery. He had consistently ruled in favor of owners' property rights, and against slaves.

And yet, Mansfield's own household included a biracial grandniece, Dido Lindsey, the daughter of his career Navy nephew, Rear Admiral Sir John Lindsey and Admiral Lindsey's African-born Jamaican wife. Dido Lindsey is shown at left with Elizabeth Murray, another Mansfield grandniece. Young Dido was a close friend of the royal family of King George III and Queen Charlotte. She was frequently seen at the palace playing with the royal children, and was often included in royal family portraits.
When a REAR ADMIRAL in the Royal Navy has a black wife, and royal family portraits include a half-black/half-white child, I think it was fairly accepted.

The British seemed to be very divided along CLASS rather than RACE.

Mac
 

AZ_Dawn

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Thanks, guys! I'm kind of overwhelmed by an everything-I-know-is-wrong feeling.:e2thud: But thanks!

pdr said:
Would a captain really take surplus bagggage in the form of a musician or two who were not sailors, or would he call musicians the musical ones amongst the sailors, who sometimes got extra pay or privileges for playing music for the crew?
I think I'll ask about this on the pirate forum I'm a member of; see what they have to say.
 

AZ_Dawn

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I got an answer from the pirate forum, pdr. Yes, the musicians on board would probably have been sailors who could play instruments. Looks like I've got some more character development to do. :idea: