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Juniper1
03-26-2008, 10:42 PM
I have spent the afternoon trying to learn about knives as weapons and I am at a place where I would love to hear from someone knowledgeable. I could use some suggestions for brand names or types of knives to google, the sort that someone experienced and comfortable with blades would carry as protection. I'm looking for background, not heavy technical details. I just need to visualize what would be used and how it would be carried.

Thanks!

DeaconBlu
03-26-2008, 10:48 PM
A nice balanced throwing dagger. Maybe two just in case. When you fight with a knife of any kind you hold it in your fist (blade protruding out from the pinky) and fight with your fists until you can get a blade in an opening somewhere. This is what I've read. No first hand accounts mind you.

tallus83
03-26-2008, 11:42 PM
And another answer is the blade protrudes from the thumb end of the fist.

It may depend more on the type of fighting you would be doing.

rtilryarms
03-27-2008, 12:33 AM
Bayonets and survival knives for fighting and strategic throwing (hardly ever a good strategy to throw your opponent your weapon but it has it's place).
I use several but the M6 bayonet is my favorite fighting knife. I have KA-BARs but I don't like them nearly as much. M5 bayonet is pretty much the same thing but it was more for utility than for fighting. M6 was a fighting upgrade.

I would never use a blade made for throwing as a weapon. They are made for carnival acts.
but they are poular in novels and movies.

Real life says keep it in your hand. If opponent is not close enough for hand-to-hand, they are far enough to run from.

tips from your uncle rt

Juniper1
03-27-2008, 12:54 AM
Thanks for the suggestions. This is a situation where guns are a non-issue and the carrier has training specific to combat involving knives as well as assorted survival skills.

RT, I've looked up the things you mention. That was a huge help. Sometimes terminolgy is the only thing between a successful and an unsuccessful search.

rtilryarms
03-27-2008, 02:05 AM
Thanks for the suggestions. This is a situation where guns are a non-issue and the carrier has training specific to combat involving knives as well as assorted survival skills.

RT, I've looked up the things you mention. That was a huge help. Sometimes terminolgy is the only thing between a successful and an unsuccessful search.

True. good luck. Don't be afraid to ask. Knife Fighting is my specialty. Some real techniques are ungooglable because they are not real romantic or spectacular. Just dirty fighting.

Summonere
03-27-2008, 05:39 AM
Knives

I have spent the afternoon trying to learn about knives as weapons and I am at a place where I would love to hear from someone knowledgeable. I could use some suggestions for brand names or types of knives to google, the sort that someone experienced and comfortable with blades would carry as protection. I'm looking for background, not heavy technical details. I just need to visualize what would be used and how it would be carried.

Thanks!

Addendum:

This is a situation where guns are a non-issue and the carrier has training specific to combat involving knives as well as assorted survival skills.



Oh man, what a can of worms. Quickest in a pinch is a fixed-blade knife. Bigger is "usually" better, but that probably remains situation/story dependent. Google "tactical knife" and you'll find plenty to look at.

As to what would be used, and how it would be carried ... that's situation and story dependent, isn't it? Anything pointy and sharp can be used. Belt-line carry, up front, is quick and accessible. Then there's neck-line carry, wherein some sheaths are worn around then neck like a necklace, blade up, grip down, usually under a shirt. William Gibson had a character carrying a tanto blade under his arm, like a gun. Oh, and then there's the Crocodile Dundee carry, which is strapped across the back ; )

Anyway ... brand names ... no shortage, there, but here are a few in no real order:

Chris Reeve
http://www.chrisreeve.com/greenberet.htm

Crawford Handmade Knives
http://www.crawfordknives.com
http://www.crawfordknives.com/DRAGON%20KNIFE.htm

Shivworks
http://www.shivworks.com/clinchpick.asp

KaBar
http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=KA1480

Emerson Knives
http://www.emersonknives.com/

Benchmade
http://www.benchmade.com/

For fun, of course, you can always check out knives over at KnifeArt dot com:

http://www.knifeart.com/tacfixblad1.html
http://www.knifeart.com/tacticalknives.html

Then there's CRKT (Columbia River Knife & Tool), Cold Steel, Spyderco, SOG, Buck, Kershaw, Boker, Gerber, and on ... and on...

DeaconBlu
03-27-2008, 06:36 AM
So it doesn't pay to have a ranged weapon in real life like it does in D&D?

Kenny
03-27-2008, 08:45 PM
I found that having the blade down (from pinky) reduces the range of the knife making it harder to strike a blow with as you have to double back on the length of your arm.

My 0.02

rtilryarms
03-27-2008, 11:44 PM
Knife held in fist with blade protruding past meaty part of palm (pinky side) is the proper combat position. Knives are primarily made for defense and slashing.
Stabbing is done in mostly deceptive moves.
Knives are only for offense in "dirty fighting". Where the victim is unaware of your presence.

People holding knives the other way will only donate same to an experienced opponent. There are too many counter-moves to street style.

And again, if i cannot reach an opponent, I can run from said opponent. That is my preferred fighting style - RUNJUTSU!

HeronW
03-28-2008, 06:07 PM
Double edged blades are best, whether small that fit and look like a belt buckle, one that slips into your boot,or a back of belt sheath, back of the neck between the shoulder sheath--under clothes, a 'breast dagger' small and located in the cleavage for the more endowed ladies.

Juniper1
03-30-2008, 04:59 PM
Again, thanks for all the info! Summonere, thank you for taking the time to give me all the links. As for the carry, I had been envisioning something along the belt so I'm glad to know that it works. You've all been great!

SupplyDragon
04-23-2008, 05:27 PM
My personal favorite (the one I carried while in Iraq) is a Benchmade. Nice heavy blade, quick action comfortable grip. Didnt care for the serrated half of the blade though...

Sarpedon
04-23-2008, 05:40 PM
Yes it does pay to have a ranged weapon in real life. Its called a gun. A knife is not a good ranged weapon. Not to say that knives are useless, but gun beats knives at a distance greater than 5 feet. In general.

A medieval fighting manual said of knife fighting; "You cannot practice this art without being cut." So a lot of knife fighting is about inflicting serious injuries while suffering superficial injuries yourself.

Also the first rule of knife fighting; don't let them see you have a knife until after you've cut them. When fighting with a sword, its harder to hide what you are doing. In knife fighting, it is both possible and critical.

People frequently will use a coat or cloak in conjunction with a knife. (hence the term 'cloak-and-dagger') The coat can conceal your knife, give protection to your unarmed hand, entangle his weapon, and can be used to distract or blind your opponent by whipping it at his face.

allenparker
04-23-2008, 05:55 PM
I agree on the M6 for combat. Daily, I carry a SoG. Lighter weight, slips in my boot or pocket nicely, and is very comfortable, both in use and while concealed.

Styles of fighting usually include both types of fist grips. There are other grips as well, but mostly for specific techniques. If we knew a little more about the fight scene, we might be able to help you make a more defined decision.

Hope this helps and wasn't too late.

Summonere
04-23-2008, 07:29 PM
...gun beats knives at a distance greater than 5 feet. In general.


Well, not usually. Probably not even in general. Though it kinda depends.* So in the interest of friendly chit-chat...

Dennis Teuller's famous drill seems to indicate that knives often beat guns up to about 21 feet ... unless the gunman is already aiming at the knifer. But from a holster? Gunman usually gets sliced and diced if he just stands there. Knifer is usually much faster moving forward than gunman is in reverse, or even sideways. (Though gun guy's lateral movement forces a directional change for the knifer, which slows him down, giving gun guy more time to skeedadle.) Statistics, too, seem to indicate that the majority of lethal force encounters actually occur not at the oft-heard 21 feet, but at about five to ten(!). In that case, gunman had better be Lightning McQuick with a CNS hit at 5 feet against a knifer.*

That medieval manual, though, is spot on. (And cloak and dagger is fun.)

And ditto, too, "If we knew a little more about the fight scene, we might be able to help you make a more defined decision."

Sarpedon
04-23-2008, 07:44 PM
all things equal. gun in hand vs knife in hand. even gun in unsecured holster vs knife in unsecured holster.

And I disagree that the gunman can't go back fast, if he's been at all trained. Trained knife guy will lose against equally trained gunman. If you assume that its mr famous knife man vs joe blow gunman, that isn't a fair test situation.

Summonere
04-23-2008, 11:18 PM
all things equal. gun in hand vs knife in hand.


That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, isn't it?

Teuller's drill though, as I recall, posits gun guy standing there with holstered sidearm. Seven yards away, knife guy already has knife in hand. Knifer charges gun guy -- and here's where the demo gets fishy, because guess what happens when gun guy just stands there? -- you betcha, he gets turned into sushi. When the gun guy moves, though, his chances increase. If gun guy already has a bead on knifer, though, the matter turns into CNS hits and/or movement of gun guy. Otherwise gun guy still gets cut. Assuming, of course that knifer is really, really intent. This is largely the point of the drill. Develop some awareness of how close is too close, and then learn what to do about it.



And I disagree that the gunman can't go back fast, if he's been at all trained.I don't quite disagree, but I expect most folks run faster forward than backwards, and see better, too, things that they might otherwise trip over. Question seems to be one of creating sufficient space to take further effective action, whether to King Arthur it -- "Run away!" -- or bust caps. (Which is the other part of the drill: Learn effective strategies.)



Trained knife guy will lose against equally trained gunman.
This one sure looks like a matter of distance, though, isn't it? And whether or not weapons are already in hand. (But isn't untrained gunman vs. untrained knifer more interesting?)



If you assume that its mr famous knife man vs joe blow gunman, that isn't a fair test situation.Jerry Miculek vs. me? I die. Then I die some more after his lickety-split reload. (No doubt the exact same fate, too, versus anyone else.)

Mr. Famous Knife Man vs. Joe Dirt gunman? Not fair at certain distances. But fictionwise, we get to make up whatever we think works for the story.

For instance, Kill Bill and lots of other movies tell us that swords are apparently quite easy to hide under things like yellow track suits, and that they (or knives in general) are always far deadlier than any kind of gun at any kind of distance.

Oh, and if you drop your blade, you can always use the Force to pop it back into your hand.

Sarpedon
04-23-2008, 11:28 PM
Aha! but if you are assuming the knife guy has the drop on the gunman, then you aren't saying that knives beat guns, you are saying that if you have the drop on someone, you win. Duh.

As long as you are assuming the guy has his gun holstered, why not assume he hasn't got a round chambered? that he's got his trigger lock on? that he's got a broken arm and an eyepatch?

Mr. Fix
04-23-2008, 11:31 PM
If you're further than five feet from me, and I have a holstered gun ( SA P9C), I will out draw you EVERY time! Sorry, but the quick draw, once practiced (and that is what we're talking about right? not a bunch of rank amateurs playing with toys,) then the gun wins! If I'm standing face to face (aware of the opponent) then I'll win with my gun!:guns:

http://www.fastdraw.org/

No knife weilder can clear 5 feet in a 1/4 second!

I know this is a 'knife' thread, but I have to put in my 5c.

Summonere
04-23-2008, 11:49 PM
Aha! but if you are assuming the knife guy has the drop on the gunman, then you aren't saying that knives beat guns, you are saying that if you have the drop on someone, you win.


Nah. Not what I'm saying. That's just what the drill says. Guy with holstered gun faces guy with knife. Guy with knife runs at guy with holstered gun. Nothing but a CNS hit stops knife guy. Cut cut.



As long as you are assuming the guy has his gun holstered, why not assume he hasn't got a round chambered? that he's got his trigger lock on? that he's got a broken arm and an eyepatch?Nah. Assume much more difficulty than that. Guy doesn't even have a gun because it's too big and heavy and uncomfortable to carry. Instead, it sits comfortably at home, guarding his safe, from the inside.

Kiltinator
04-24-2008, 12:00 AM
There is no such thing as knife 'fighting'; only getting stabbed and bleeding out. Nine times out of ten I would much, much rather deal with a firearm situation.

Knife 'fighters' are almost always Walts.

Sarpedon
04-24-2008, 12:00 AM
Guy with knife runs at guy with holstered gun

You see, if I had a holstered gun and a guy with a knife ran at me, I'd first do one of the various boxing, wrestling moves I know. If he's running top speed, I don't care about the knife, I have the advantage, as I can sidestep or do anything I want, but he can't; all he can do is run foward fast, because if he does anything else, I draw and shoot. After I've tossed his dumb ass to the ground, then I draw and shoot. You see, this drill assumes that all the gunman can do is stand there and draw his gun. Not realistic.

Kiltinator
04-24-2008, 12:27 AM
You see, if I had a holstered gun and a guy with a knife ran at me, I'd first do one of the various boxing, wrestling moves I know. If he's running top speed, I don't care about the knife, I have the advantage, as I can sidestep or do anything I want, but he can't; all he can do is run foward fast, because if he does anything else, I draw and shoot. After I've tossed his dumb ass to the ground, then I draw and shoot. You see, this drill assumes that all the gunman can do is stand there and draw his gun. Not realistic.


He can also do what he wants. It would very much depend on distance and a multitude of other factors. As for deploying boxing/wrestling moves FIRST - too funny, mate.

We all might imagine what we're going to do when such a situation arises but even with training we automatically default to i. shitting our pants and ii. (if we have a firearm) aiming badly with one hand and hoping to get lucky. :)

Summonere
04-24-2008, 12:35 AM
If you're further than five feet from me, and I have a holstered gun ( SA P9C), I will out draw you EVERY time! Sorry, but the quick draw, once practiced (and that is what we're talking about right? not a bunch of rank amateurs playing with toys,) then the gun wins! If I'm standing face to face (aware of the opponent) then I'll win with my gun!:guns:

http://www.fastdraw.org/

No knife weilder can clear 5 feet in a 1/4 second!

I know this is a 'knife' thread, but I have to put in my 5c.

That fast draw biz looks cool, albeit old-fashioned speed-rocky kinda cool. Apparently, then, you're no Joe Dirt. :)

But if 1.5 seconds is the average time to cover 21 feet, and we snip that 21 feet down to, say, five feet and three inches (my math wobbles like a 3-wheeled shopping cart going down a flight of steps, so feel free to correct all of my errors involving the halving of halves), doesn't this mean the time over that distance is .375 seconds, or pretty much 1/4 of a second?

And how precise is quick draw shooting? If the objective of the drill is to not get cut, will four to nine inches of accuracy at such range prove sufficient to immediately stop the threat? Or will the gunshot threat close distance and slice?

Call me Curious George.

Sarpedon
04-24-2008, 12:36 AM
not if you practice. Again this scenerio assumes that the knife guy has the drop on the gun guy. If the guy with the gun is surprised and the guy with the knife is not, then your situation is unfair and a useless test of the relative efficacy of knife vs gun.

I meant you deploy the wrestling moves only if he's too close to draw the gun on; its far better to defend youself with your hands than try to reach for the gun when the guy's already on top of you. If he does anything but run full tilt, you can back up to buy time and draw.

You see, my restrictions are fundamentally different than yours; you assume the guy with the gun is unprepared and static, whereas I say the guy with the knife's options are limited not because I assume that for the purpose of the drill, but because of the limitations of the weapon.

If he must cover 20 feet to attack the man with the gun, he CAN'T do anything but run up fast, because if he does, it will take more time, and the guy will draw and shoot. If he's running full tilt, he can get there before the other guy draws, but he'll be vulnerable to hand to hand moves, and will be going too fast to use his weapon effectively.

If I ever find myself in a hostile situation, with a knife, standing 20 feet from a man with a holstered pistol, my response will be to RUN AWAY. Hopefully I can get behind some cover before he can draw.

Mike Martyn
04-24-2008, 01:15 AM
If you're further than five feet from me, and I have a holstered gun ( SA P9C), I will out draw you EVERY time! Sorry, but the quick draw, once practiced (and that is what we're talking about right? not a bunch of rank amateurs playing with toys,) then the gun wins! If I'm standing face to face (aware of the opponent) then I'll win with my gun!:guns:

http://www.fastdraw.org/

No knife weilder can clear 5 feet in a 1/4 second!

I know this is a 'knife' thread, but I have to put in my 5c.


I'm not a gun guy so please enlighten me on one point. Does the quick draw include thumbing (?) off the safety?
One of my training partners is head of the local Swat team. His take on it is the the knife is more dangerous out to at least ten feet. Not only that, it doesn't run out of ammunition. It doesn't have to be aimed (ie: slicing ).

His side arm is a Glock 9mm of some sort so and he said some of the delay on his part would be getting off the safety but like I say I'm not a gun guy.

Summonere
04-24-2008, 01:22 AM
...His side arm is a Glock 9mm of some sort so and he said some of the delay on his part would be getting off the safety but like I say I'm not a gun guy.

Glocks have no conventional external safety to be switched off, so, no delay there. Colt 1911 style pistols? Sure. Browning Hi-Power? Yep. A great many others, too.

Summonere
04-24-2008, 01:27 AM
You see, if I had a holstered gun and a guy with a knife ran at me, I'd ... sidestep ... this drill assumes that all the gunman can do is stand there and draw his gun. Not realistic.

Yep. That's pretty much it, in a nutshell (latter part, though some of the former, too). Drill was designed to acquaint folks with what constitutes a threat, and at what distance, and, most important of all, what to do about it. Getting out of the way has a lot to do with what to do about it, though learning to deal with knives at close quarters is also part of the force on force component of the drill, which is what your other comments address. Try to box a knifer, though? I'd really rather not. I prefer the King Arthur strategy (Monty Python version).

Sarpedon
04-24-2008, 01:55 AM
well, my boxing teacher also teaches grappling and throws and stuff. So I call it boxing, just because he does it. Its not technically boxing, as the sport is these days.

But if you avoid his knife and plant your fist in his face while he's running forward as fast as he could, likely you won't need to shoot him afterwards.

Summonere
04-24-2008, 02:00 AM
well, my boxing teacher also teaches grappling and throws and stuff. So I call it boxing, just because he does it. Its not technically boxing, as the sport is these days.

Pancrase?

rtilryarms
04-24-2008, 06:24 AM
up to 15 feet? I think I will go with my knife.
But remember, I am talking about real world fighting; not 10 paces turn and... or high noon, shoulder your poncho and expose 6-shooter.
I'm talking real fight, close in and maybe momentary separation. Quick thinking, I am a knife guy.

Guns are no good in defense against a knife. Guns are offensive weapons. A true bladesman seeks escape first but up to 15'? You better be pretty quick and willing.

It's kind of a moot point since we are all here talking on the internet and its difficult to show each other. Thre are endless variables which neutralize every hyperbolic claim. Even my evasion techniques have risk of getting shot in the back by a less-than-honorable opponent

There is really no answer for who would win in a skirmish because the situation is always unique.

Love the bantor though. Love it

Juniper1
04-25-2008, 05:30 PM
I was surprised to find this thread has come back to life again. I appreciate the later thoughts. In my case the gun vs. knife situation is moot. Neither guns nor swords are in use, most everyone with a knife has been trained in its use as part of their schooling and, despite all the enthusiastic offers to help, there are no exciting fight scenes. Well, one brief grapple seen from a distance, but nothing with any detail. If anything changes I'll be sure to come back with questions.

Oh, I do have one quick one. What sort of care would offensive/defensive knive need? Do you just keep it sheathed or would it be something you take out and clean in some way on a regular basis. All I have in my house are cutlery and a swiss army type thing for camping and fishing (which I frequently forget and therefore have notches on my teeth from biting through too much line). I'm assuming if you have a more life or death relationship with a knife that you may end up wanting to keep it in better shape.

Please feel free to use this thread for your own related discussions. I'll pop in if combat becomes inevitable for my MCs.

Sarpedon
04-25-2008, 05:38 PM
No reason to clean it unless you get it dirty, or wet. No need to sharpen it unless it gets dull from use. If it just sits in its sheath, dry, no care is needed. Maybe a little oil now and again, if its not a modern knife.

And the knife vs gun question isn't moot for us! :p